Good Area, Bad Area

[Swede]

Have you experienced good elk hunting areas that went bad, or bad areas that became good?

The area I have been hunting has come full circle in my hunting life. When I started hunting there some in the early 70s you could hunt several weeks with a rifle, and any elk was fair game. Success was low as there were very few elk around. Over the years the herds built up and the seasons were more restricted and there were no more rifle hair tags". It was excellent hunting and more than one person told me, when I started work on the Forest in 92, that the largest bulls in the State were in the area.
Now hunting has fallen off again, at least for archers where I hunt. The reasons for lower success have changed, but the results are the same. In the 70s there were no elk. Now they are congregated where you can't hunt. The habitat has improved, but the forage on the Forest is being consumed by cattle. In addition there are far more hunters that here was around in the past.

If you have seen major shifts in elk hunting quality, what happened?

[Roosiebull]

I had a similar but different path.

My first few years of hunting all happened in 2 areas, as time went on, my areas expanded, but the same 2 areas were my fall back...I could always find elk to hunt.

As the seasons went on, and I became more savvy on how to approach things, I started feeling pretty confident in my program...I knew the full routine of elk in 2 large areas, and every year, getting better at hunting them.

This was all private timber co..the later years, access became restricted often, it was getting frustrating waiting for them to open their land during season...they eventually did, and I was back in action.

At one point, a company took over all of that land, all of my local hunting area...it was great news, they were more liberal with access.

The very next year their policy changed...now the land was all closed during fire season...not by level of fire danger...I lost my whole program...no more hunting where I have spent all of my time.

Now I am stuck to national forest only, different ball game all together. The elk use national forest way different, way harder to predict and find...my transition year was my toughest of any elk season...still worked out, but I felt like a complete rookie.

At this time, I am happy I was forced to branch out and re learn, it forced me to grow, I am far from having my new grounds figured out, but it's a beautiful environment to chase elk...I am still finding success, and it's kind of a rebirth in my hunting...starting over with new challenges.

Now I have gone from trying to kill a big bull...back to just trying to kill a bull. There is more positive than negative for me, I have become more obsessed than ever....trying to get that sure confidence back....one opportunity lost, and another gained.

There are other aspects of recent impact as well, we have had a huge mtn lion boom the last 5 yrs, which changes elk behavior, and of course all of the rest of the factors...every year has a different weather theme, and with that comes a different approach to be successful.

I enjoy the speed bumps of hunting, it gives more value to success...and if I cannot get it done, it will be knowledge gained for the next season.

[Tigger]

I have lived a nomadic life hunting elk. First a rifle hunt by Durango. Then a rifle hunt by Duboise WY followed by rifle hunt by Creede CO. My cousin moved to Idaho so I rifled hunted there. Then came archery in southern WY. Ahhhh, I found the spot! This is where I want to hunt! But NO! Wyoming has kicked me in the nards the last 2 years and didn't give me a license. So NW MT last year and either back there this year or we have gotten some great info on SW MT. We will go back to WY, but the general tag there is now a once every 3 year deal. So I have no idea what it is like to hunt the same area twice. man, would that be something!

[saddlesore]

Th area I hunted in 76 got written up in a lot of magazine then it was over run with hunters and herd numbers plummeted. Over the years, the herd recovered and then CPW offered 2000 cow tags/ year and the herd plummeted again because of that and too many outfitter permits for one area.
Now the area I have been hunting for 5-8 years, all the elk head toward the private land within the1st two days of the1 st rifle season.

BTW, The rancher runs up to 600 cow calf pairs in that area and it never affected the elk and where they were. The number of hunters did

[Swede]

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Note the grass is supposed to be 6 inches high when the cattle leave the area. The 2 inch cow patties are taller than the grass, and this is not an isolated case either.

I believe there can be many reasons for elk moving away from an area. Heavy logging can impact elk use. Some logging improves it, but you can have too much also. The Cascades in Oregon have had a serious decline due to a lock of logging and new forage being stimulated. Predators can impact elk numbers. etc, etc. Most of the impacts I can think of are man caused, but wildfire can impact an area for years too.
Saddlesore, I am wondering if the picture above reflects the condition of your area while the cattle are still on the allotment? These cows and a whole bunch more are going nowhere for a couple more weeks. The ranchers utilizing the Forest will not go to a rest-rotation grazing program as they claim the cows would all need to be retrained. I hope you did not fall out of your chair on that line. They graze the entire Forest Service landscape the same way. Well before the end of the archery season all grass is lip high only, if a cow can reach it, which is 99% of the land area. I see my hunting area being impacted as much by over grazing as by hunting.

[>>>---WW---->]

Swede's picture makes me want to comment. Elk will tolerate cattle a little better than sheep. However, too much of either will cause elk to move. The picture depicts a prime example of over grazing. The rancher abused his grazing privileges on federal land. Also, the forest service did not policing the use of grazing permits. I'm sure they will say they don't have the man power to check up on things such as this. And I'm sure the rancher knows that they can get away with it.

Years ago at a meeting I attended with the Colorado DOW, they explained that they had done a study of radio collared elk. They concluded at that time, that there were two major reasons that caused elk to move. One was the first rifle hunting season and the other was the rounding up and moving of large numbers of sheep and cattle off the mountain. Thus for the purpose of this thread, turning a good area into a bad area!

[Swede]

The Forest Service range staff and district ranger are too lazy and too cowardly to take on the ranchers. (My opinion), but this has gone on for years. I understand this particular rancher hired the principle staff assistant to Congressman Greg Walden to be his ranch foreman. They refer to Mr. Walden as "daddy". They know daddy will take care of them against some freshly minted college girl ranger who is concerned about her career. I have talked to the Forest Service personnel and they tell me they can't do anything.
The picture below shows multiple signs that say "No Trespassing" "Private Property Closed to Entry". These signs are posted on the open Forest Service roads. I told the F.S. about it a couple of years ago. They thanked me and said they would have them down. They are still there to the best of my knowledge. Several roads in the area are signed the same.

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[saddlesore]

This is area that I hunted with the 600 cow calf grazing permit. Grass is usually this tall in mid October. Grazing lease ended mid Sept.



This where the elk go after the1st rifle shot , early October. Same area,but lower elevation on private land. Notice the cows in the background.. They don't bother the elk. The elk don't mind the short grass there. This was only part of the herd that varies in size every year from 400 to 800 head of elk.



This last photo is on the mean ole rancher's place that happen to feed the same elk that raid their hay stacks most of the winter down in the Gunnison valley because of all the snow this winter

[Swede]

I understand there are differences. In the foreground of your picture, I see more forage than on the vast majority of the allotments where I hunt.
Sure the rancher feeds his elk. He also complains to the wildlife department and begs to be paid for feeding his elk. The reason I say they are his elk, is because only he and his associates can harvest one. You can't even buy permission to come on some ranches. Maybe your rancher is a little different. You can buy on for a few hundred dollars. Generally they just say "no" because "you might shoot one of the Anguses, or leave a gate open." No, it is the damage to the fence excuse now or is it the litter issue?
When I lived in ranch country, I had 95 acres that allowed access to some State land. I permitted people to cross my place and hunt if they wanted to. I was the only one around that allowed access over my place. I never had any problem associated with hunters. Guess who complained and wanted me to stop? A local rancher. Too many of the ranchers don't only want to control their land, some want to control other people's property and the public land too.

[saddlesore]

In this particular area,although the ranch doesn't let anyone hunt. Those elk depend on it and others for winter survival.Which is true for most of the elk herds in Colorado.Very few herds winter on public land. Then migrate back tp public land in the spring. A lot of elk an other wildlife would die without that forage. Mostly because when the country was settled, the homesteaders locked up all the valley floors where the water was.

This is way the agricultural communities carry so much weight with the Wildlife Commission in Colorado at least

[Beendare]

Oh man...don't get me started on overgrazing...or sheep. Those ranchers have it made....we get shafted as hunters.

Yeah, i've had to move whole drainages away from sheep/cattle. And its a constant battle getting away from hunter pressure. We were in this spot....about 8 miles in on a trail out of Vail one year and elk running us over. We met a couple guys in there that was struggling, called them in a bull....and the next year 6 of their buddies were in there and it sucked.


I think they had a megaphone and told everyone at their bowshop!

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[saddlesore]

Yep,Unit 36 north of Vail use to be a great area. I hunted it back in the 95-98 time frame.

I can work around cows,but in northern CO where they run flocks of 2000-4000 head of sheep,it's hard to get around them.

This not meant to be derogatory,but when hunters choose archery or ML season to hunt elk,it's a fact of life that you will run into cows or sheep. No matter how much any gripes,it is not going to change. Same with all the oil and gas wells in NW CO. That is why they call NF multi use areas.I don't like ATV's or bicycles where I hunt, so I don't hunt where I might encounter them.

It is about like griping about the snow in 4th rifle season. You either learn to live with it or select another season.

These are all reasons why areas go from good to bad and bad to good

[the weasel]

Swede, as you may remember in some PM's we've exchanged..... I also hunt your "general location" just a smidge west. The cattle are everywhere! And last year I seen new "no trespassing" signs on the main gravel roads coming in. I thought "that's nice.... don't remember seeing those before". 200yds. down the road I see a group of 5 deer with a forked horn standing 10yds behind the old fence and shiny new signs posted every 50-100yds. He got a freebee that Friday eve... I have told you in the past, early to mid 90's when I hunted this area before I saw Elk almost daily and had seen some of the biggest bucks I'd laid eyes on. Now a little 3point buck is a big deal in our camp! And IF we find Elk.... everything else comes to a screeching halt to go figure out how we can try to get lucky. TOO MANY COWS... TOO MANY PEOPLE!! Not uncommon to see camps with 4-5 trailers AND a couple tents in them... especially by the lakes.... Going to try to stay closer to home this year and maybe just worry about tagging a Deer.... Start saving points for somewhere cool to look for Elk....

[Swede]

Weasel, I completely understand. I hate to abandon the area, but I am very close. There are a couple of characters that are limited in where they can go, but if I find a better spot, I think they see the light on the unit we have been hunting. As the old adage goes, "there is no use flogging a dead horse." I am in an awkward situation. I don't have enough points for a really good unit, but too many to blow on an average one.

[stringunner]

Here are few pics to shown the difference in Elk in good area vs bad area. Elk on forest after moo cows vs elk that run to the ranch and feed!

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[olympushunt]

Holy franks and beans!

[Swede]

Holy franks and beans!

What do ya mean? Stringunner took those pictures just driving out of camp. The first one was near his tree stand on public land, and the other across the fence on the ranch.
I was not so lucky last year. I saw just one of those public land elk. It wanted to come up the hill, to the water hole where I waited, hoping for a shot, but it was just too weak to make the climb and turned back. I was disappointed as I had waited for days for a trophy like that elk (upper pic.) in the foreground. It is too bad the cattle had left nothing to eat, so it went off to chew some bark off an old downed log.
BTW: Did I mention we have an overgrazing situation in out hunting area?

[saddlesore]

That first picture looks like there is grass there to eat. I'd bet those elk had hard winter with too much snow covering forage. The grass looks likes pring grass.

The bull is probably one of the nature freaks where bulls get pregnant.

Here are some bulls in RMNP and that country is severely over grazed. No cows allowed though. Just too many elk.



Here is bull I killed two years ago in that grassy country I originally posted.



Here is another one I killed a year before that, about 100 yards from the one above.



Unfortunately instead of falling in the grass ,it fell down in this ravine.



Here is cow moose I killed two years ago on a ranch that runs about 3000 head of cow., Lot of grass if managed right.



Contrary to most thinking that tall grass is great, cows, elk will not eat it. They want the short new grass close to the ground. Turn a herd out on belly high grass and you will se both cows and elk with their heads buried in it, eating the 4-6 " tall grass and not touching the tall stuff. Horses and mules will do the same, but they will most generally go along and nip the grain off the top of the tall grass first

[Swede]

Where Stringunner, Oly and I hunt everything edible is eaten down to the nub. They don't eat just the lush grass near the ground or the seedy tops. When everything else is gone they eat the Elk sedge.

Note: Elk sedge (Pine grass) My observation is it becomes palatable after it has had a frost on it, mid to late September. I have killed several elk in the second half of bow season where the gut was filled with elk sedge. The other grasses were gone and all that was left was the sedge. The elk seem to do all right with the Elk sedge then.

[saddlesore]

Tough area you are in. Glad I am able to hunt here

[BrentLaBere]

Contrary to most thinking that tall grass is great, cows, elk will not eat it. They want the short new grass close to the ground. Turn a herd out on belly high grass and you will se both cows and elk with their heads buried in it, eating the 4-6 " tall grass and not touching the tall stuff. Horses and mules will do the same, but they will most generally go along and nip the grain off the top of the tall grass first

Where I have glassed elk, at times I question if they are eating rocks.....in most of the slides they are in, i'm not sure what they are eating. Heck, sometimes I cant even get there to investigate. At the same time, in a nice meadow area on a bench just above or below cattle will be grazing. I haven't seen the competition like swede has for areas and hope I never do. But I have been amazed at what they find as food. It makes me question what elk forage looks like and where to find it.