Shoot or No Shot – Episode #2 2017. Patience Test....

[WapitiTalk1]

Date/Time: Third Week of September, 2017/5:42 PM
Location: Somewhere in the elk woods
Hunt Pressure Status: Minimal
Hunt: Solo Hunt
Tag: Archery tag; any bull.

After hunting with your partner off and on for the past week and a half, working many avenues of your hunt (run/gun, some tree standing, some ambush sites on travel routes, etc.), you find yourselves at the last few days of your hunt. For some odd reason (as it sometimes does) the elk have decided to become a bit choked up over your presence in their neck of the woods and have gone almost completely silent for the past two days. WTH, it’s the third week of September! This evening’s plans are for you and your buddy to each head to a separate spot where you know the elk have moved to or through, at the witching hour (right before dark). If they’re not vocalizing, you may as well split up and maximize your efforts in ambush attempts. As you sit at your chosen spot (you’ve been here before and know there are elk that move into/through this spot right before dark almost every night) thinking about all that has transpired on your hunt and what you may do the following morning, you see a nice bull move directly toward you into the small opening you’re sitting at the edge of and holy hell, he's a dandy!. He comes in from the direction you’d hoped he came in from (wind in your favour) and commences to drop his head and sniff the ground for that sweetest smell that tells him a cow in estrus has been there! Of course you’re at full draw by this time with your new Darton Maverick II (hee hee, shameless plug for my new bow), and now is the time of this hunt to make the CALL. I will tell you that you’ll have approximately 30-40 second to decide if you’re gonna touch off an arrow at this bull “but” the crux of the biscuit is……. you’ll have 5 various angles (images I’ll provide) in this short span of time to shoot. The bull is 25-30 yards away and you my friend, have chosen your background to sit in front of well, and as mentioned, you have the wind vs. your opponent. This is the first and angle, number one of five, in the next 30-40 seconds (it all happens pretty quickly so its up to you to decide which shot you'll take)... he's not gonna be there forever sniffing the dirt. For this first angle/image....Shoot or no shot here?

If you're shooting, save the picture to your desktop and open in MS Paint, then place a spot, X, or whatever on the critter before you save it back to a jpg or png and add the marked up pic with your post.

[Elkhunttoo]

As of now it's a no for me, I will tell you in the middle if August when I'm shooting a lot of that changes...I like the angle if it's 20 yards and in but over that I better wait.

[Cbb]

Dont shoot.

[N&N Waterfowl]

As mentioned, 20 yards or in probably taking the shot....but, at pushing 30 yards not going to take the frontal shot and going to have to wait hoping that he offers a better shot in the next 30 seconds.

[otcWill]

Thwack! Dead bull. This shot is as lethal as any I've taken and I've killed a handful at this exact angle. No need to wait unless I anticipate he might move which I could only decide in the moment

[Brendan]

Depends on how steady my pin is. I've drawn, settled and taken that shot once. Dead Bull. Another time, got surprised and had a little too much adrenaline, and passed.

If it feels good - thwack! Right around the same spot as OtcWill for me. If I can't settle down - I'm concentrating on pulling into the wall and calming the nerves.

[saddlesore]

Not archery, but I even hesitate taking that shot with a ML or CF rifle.Not because it isn't effective,but it makes cleaning out the insides might messy. No gut method, makes it a little better,but with a little patience , most likely a better shot presentation will come.
I think younger or newer hunters tend to shoot too quick and take shots that are less than desirable. As the title states.Patience test.

[WapitiTalk1]

A few seconds after the bull arrived on the scene as shown in first image, he shifts to his left a bit and drops his head to sniff the ground. Thermals are still hitting you in the face, your cover/concealment is still working well, you're set up in a "quiet spot" with soft dirt under you, your bow is whisper quiet when drawn, but...this bull is not gonna be around much longer.... Barney Bull looks to be a bit over 25ish yards from where you're kneeling. Shoot or no shot here?

If you're shooting, save the picture to your desktop and open in MS Paint, then place a spot, X, or whatever on the critter before you save it back to a jpg or png and add the marked up pic with your post.

[Roosiebull]

neither for me yet.....but I think i'm about to get a very good shot angle

[TimeOnTarget]

The 2nd option would be tempting for me and I might put one right tight behind his front shoulder. You'd catch 2 lungs with that shot and possible liver. But like Roosie said, I'm thinking there will be a very good shot opportunity coming. It would all depend on how the bull was acting as to whether or not im shooting in option 2.

[lamrith]

I would have taken that 1st shot, little right of OTC's placement.

Second image I am holding, not quite sold on it, waiting for him to swing dat big ole' azzzz the rest of the way around as he feeds.

[Old school]

If my pin is settled and I'm not shaking like a leaf, I'm shooting that first picture in the same spot Will picked. I'm not remotely interested in the second shot as I see nothing good coming from that angle.

--Mitch

[CurlyTail]

I am not shooting in the first photo because the head is down, and my self imposed yardage limit is 20 yards on a frontal shot. Tempting though.

The second photo is easier for me - no shot. Quartering towards me too much. Waiting for a better angle. Too risky for a lenghty blood trail that may not recover the meat.

[>>>---WW---->]

#1) Shoot #2) No Shot #3 Shoot! The shadow Gods are with us on this one. In the first picture the dark shadow appears to be the indentation between the shoulder bone and the brisket bone. An arrow anywhere in that spot will cut through just about everything including the kitchen sink.

[N&N Waterfowl]

second angle...no shot for me...since wind and concealment are still in my favor waiting for a better angle, and hoping that passing up the frontal shot (was greater than self imposed 20 yard limit) wasn't a mistake

[WapitiTalk1]

And Barney bull shifts his position again to sniff another wet spot on the ground..... As of now, he's been well within shooting range for 15-20 seconds (but probably won't be for much longer) and has offered you three angles (Post #1, Post #8, and now this angle). He's also moved a bit more into the open and out of the shadows to where he is positioned now to your 12 o'clock. You feel he's gonna continue off to the left (your left as you're looking) and down an elk trail that leads to another small meadow at any time. He's right at 25 yards from your position.

Shoot or no shot here?

Remember, if you're shooting, save the picture to your desktop and open in MS Paint, then place a spot, X, or whatever on the critter before you save it back to a jpg or png and add the marked up pic with your post.

[Tigger]

I am still waiting. knowing you, the last one will be broadside at 5 yards looking the other way! Seriously, he has no clue I am there. I wait. This might be my undoing if the last one is his rump as he blows out of town, but so far, I am waiting.

[twinkieman]

I'm waiting! Your title tells me that, I should see what happens

[Beendare]

RJ, as you know i take the first good shot...which is this one. Too many times I've waited for a "Better" shot....and it didn't happen. When I have a good soft target entry to the vitals...and the animals body language is right...I take it. I doubt I'd take this shot with my Recurve though at25- 30 yds...no....at 20 and under yes.

bull frontal800.jpg (46.91 KiB) Viewed 21948 times

I would shoot for anywhere along the LH side of that circle. If you stay on the LH side you can probably get away with shooting higher or lower. If you have a good penetrating setup....this is where you shine. You can take this shot with confidence....as even if you hit the spine...that bull is going down.

[Roosiebull]

i'm still waiting, this time at full draw gives me time to calm down and start thinking logically again, I feel like I can hold this Darton back forever

[Beendare]

This one is dicey. You have a very slim route to the vitals...which would work if he doesn't move at all....but his body language is bad at 25 yds. He could lift his head very quickly when the bow goes off and your shot probably goes haywire. I don't shoot from 25 yds..maybe at 10 yds.. I wait at full draw.

elk head down800.jpg (43.68 KiB) Viewed 21942 times

[WapitiTalk1]

And..... he's moving off to the left as you suspected he may do, probably gonna head down that trail that leads through the thick stuff to another meadow. Nose down again, checking to see if just maybe, a potentially receptive cow has been there.. He's still very intrigued with his smelling mission, but, time's a wasting folks! That is a damn nice bull that many have chosen to wait to put an arrow into. About 25 yards from your position here I reckon.....

Shoot or no shot here.

If you're shooting, save the picture to your desktop and open in MS Paint, then place a spot, X, or whatever on the critter before you save it back to a jpg or png and add the marked up pic with your post.

[Roosiebull]

I could, and might kill him there...but there is a tree in his face, he has to turn more broadside, and when he does, can be stopped with any improvised sound you decide to make (common ones seem to be a cow call or a buck grunt, no matter what is being hunted ) i'm patient, I can wait....with this new Darton, my arm isn't even burning yet....

if I shoot

[WapitiTalk1]

i'm patient, I can wait....with this new Darton, my arm isn't even burning yet.... if I shoot

You're cracking me up RB! Just remember that if you loose an arrow here or in any of the angles shown so far with the Darton, you have got to be sure of not only your target but wayyyy beyond! Darton Archery of course you know, makes the most powerful handgun (err, bow) in the world and its been known to blow through elk hips, spruce trees, Subaru's, three sheets of hardi plank siding, and then lodge deeply into a rock slide a mile away... just be cautious when you finally touch off an arrow with the Maverick II

[cohunter]

Like roosie, I'm waiting... that antler looks a little dicey. On a quartering to shot I'd like to be further forward than Roosie's dot and the way he's got his head tilted... It'd be just my luck that it would tip just as I pull the trigger and I'd hit horn and be chasing a deflected-arrow-gutshot bull. I know... the odds of a ricochet are slim, but I'm waiting. Looks like he's moving right for that tree and he's either going around it to the left or coming closer straight toward me. Anything could go wrong, but I still like my odds and I'm not crazy about any of the shots presented so far. Besides - if I shoot now, the best case scenario is that my hunt is over! I'm waiting for everything to be perfect.

[WapitiTalk1]

It'd be just my luck that it would tip just as I pull the trigger and I'd hit horn and be chasing a deflected-arrow-gutshot bull.

I put an arrow in a bull's antlers one time but that's a story for another thread

[otcWill]

Those that have waited, I've got total respect for your decision though I'd have taken the first shot without hesitation. Just a reminder here, you've been at full draw for a LONG time now. Your opp. for a steady hold, good pin float, and a perfect release has escaped you. Maybe time to chalk this one up as a loss. No pressure Really good situation here, RJ.

To be clear, I'm not saying everyone should shoot, rather that sometimes you can have an elk at point blank and if you've drawn too early you may never have the chance to shoot at all. Lord knows its happened to me

[N&N Waterfowl]

If I still have a steady hold and the shakes haven't set-in from being at full draw for to long, I am taking the shot. Pretty much at the same location as Roosiebull. If there are any affects from being at full draw for an extended time, I am reluctantly not taking this shot and this bull is going to see another day. As disappointing as that would be, I still feel I made the right decisions (based off of my personal limits) and wouldn't have any regrets.

[Old school]

These are great RJ, I always learn something from them. I'm glad I turned an arrow loose at that first shot opportunity.
--Mitch

[WapitiTalk1]

A handful of steps puts the bull where he is NOW and his head drops one more time to complete his area "scent check". Shooting light is waning and the bull is more than likely heading down the trail he's facing at this point within seconds. This whole scenario has played out in a less than a minute with the a bull being in shooting range and offering only the angles you have seen for a potential shot. You may or may not have held at full draw for this entire period but its certainly possible as he was pretty much in your face moving and sniffing, changing his body angle several different times, for this short period. For those who have waited to take a shot until this point, do you feel that you should have taken that earlier, very first shot angle or are you OK with the fact that you've waited?

OK, shoot or no shot here?

If you're shooting, save the picture to your desktop and open in MS Paint, then place a spot, X, or whatever on the critter before you save it back to a jpg or png and add the marked up pic with your post.

[TimeOnTarget]

And..... he's moving off to the left as you suspected he may do, probably gonna head down that trail that leads through the thick stuff to another meadow. Nose down again, checking to see if just maybe, a potentially receptive cow has been there.. He's still very intrigued with his smelling mission, but, time's a wasting folks! That is a damn nice bull that many have chosen to wait to put an arrow into. About 25 yards from your position here I reckon.....

Shoot or no shot here.

photo4.JPG

If you're shooting, save the picture to your desktop and open in MS Paint, then place a spot, X, or whatever on the critter before you save it back to a jpg or png and add the marked up pic with your post.

Im shooting right here. A bump lower than Roosie but im shooting!

[Roosiebull]

I would be wishing I took the last shot, it looks like the angle is a bit steeper, and that front leg is back....I don't see a shot here. if this was the last pic, I would feel I messed up, because there was one pretty good angle (for my liking)

[twinkieman]

I'm shooting , it was number 4 for me

[twinkieman]

After posting, I now have seen #5, glad I didn't wait, would have been saying@#$#$$, bad words

[Cbb]

If at full draw with a bull in my face #4 with the same shot as Roosiebull.

[lamrith]

IF I did not react fast enough to get that 1st shot off, this would be my next (and last) one. 5th picture I would not shoot.

[cohunter]

I'm not shooting here either, but c'mon, RJ... I have a hard time seeing how he got from #4 to #5 without turning his head or putting that near-side foot forward.

[WapitiTalk1]

IF I did not react fast enough to get that 1st shot off, this would be my next (and last) one. 5th picture I would not shoot.

OK, let me quarterback Lamrith’s shot. Just as he releases an arrow from his old dusty Elite, the bull tilts his head back a hair and the arrow hits the bull in his left antler, right below the 5th point (1) BAM. From that point, Lamrith’s crooked old rusty arrow ricochets and heads to the bulls right antler, half way up his 6th point (2).. CRACK, it then shoots straight down to the lower part of his right antler (3) WACK. From there, his arrow kicks off back to the right and hits the bull right above his 3rd point (4), ZONK, and shoots straight up in the sky (5) but hits an Idaho squirrel in the head and ricochets back down (WOOSH) and hits the bull’s right antler yet again (6) BOINK. From there, Lamrith’s broken up old arrow still has the energy to blast back towards the bull’s right chest pocket (7) THUNK, and push all the way through the bull’s vitals till it exits at point 8. The bull falls in his tracks, Lamrith gets a big grin on his face, and reaches for his pack to get camera and clip shot ready for some serious hero photos. Nice shooting buddy

[Roosiebull]

IF I did not react fast enough to get that 1st shot off, this would be my next (and last) one. 5th picture I would not shoot.

OK, let me quarterback Lamrith’s shot. Just as he releases an arrow from his old dusty Elite, the bull tilts his head back a hair and the arrow hits the bull in his left antler, right below the 5th point (1) BAM. From that point, Lamrith’s crooked old rusty arrow ricochets and heads to the bulls right antler, half way up his 6th point (2).. CRACK, it then shoots straight down to the lower part of his right antler (3) WACK. From there, his arrow kicks off back to the right and hits the bull right above his 3rd point (4), ZONK, and shoots straight up in the sky (5) but hits an Idaho squirrel in the head and ricochets back down (WOOSH) and hits the bull’s right antler yet again (6) BOINK. From there, Lamrith’s broken up old arrow still has the energy to blast back towards the bull’s right chest pocket (7) THUNK, and push all the way through the bull’s vitals till it exits at point 8. The bull falls in his tracks, Lamrith gets a big grin on his face, and reaches for his pack to get camera and clip shot ready for some serious hero photos. Nice shooting buddy

photo4.JPG

.....thank goodness he got it on film...lets see that video! the broadhead started as a rusty old double bevel 3 blade, by the time it entered the bull it was a shiny single bevel 2 blade made of Damascus steel.

[WapitiTalk1]

I guess the moral of this story (thread) is that shots at elk are fleeting at best in many situations you'll find yourselves in, and, a hunter should take the first kill shot that presents itself (be opportunistic). Yah, I know I threw you cats off with the "patience" in the title; I know, I'm a stinker but patience doesn't necessarily mean wait, wait, wait till a broadside shot develops. I think there are a few good opportunities in this scenario to fill the freezer; when the right situation/kill shot present itself, its the cold hard heart that reacts to what is offered and the shot is on its way without much thought (no time for second guessing, retrospect on a past bad experience, newer hunter knee knocking, etc.). Agree? RJ

[Roosiebull]

I do agree, but at the same time, one opportunity lost, usually means another gained

I have some things always working in my head (sort of pressure)

I know I still fight composure (you have to know yourself) and what may be an opportunity for some, may not be for me...a big bull at an angle that I don't like, is the same as a cow to me, an elk I will cannot shoot.

experience can tell us all kinds of things, since we all have lived different ones, in my experience, if you wait for a good shot, more times than not, one will present itself...sometimes it doesn't, but in my mind, that's hunting (especially archery) every encounter doesn't mean a chance for a shot...lots of elk are lost from people forcing a shot when there isn't one within their skill level.

the pressure I mentioned above, when you are on a streak, you don't want to break it....last season was #17 for me, and I have only put one arrow in an elk I didn't recover, it was a low shoulder shot on a spike that I got zero penetration from, I love making good shots on elk, and end up passing lots of shots some would consider slam dunks, but I try to minimize my risk of making a poor shot...even at that, I can think of a half dozen elk I have made poor shots on, and got lucky with pretty easy recoveries. I have never not filled a tag because I passed a shot....I will keep being picky with shot selection, because when I pull my bow back on one I want to kill, i'm not the same guy shooting the center out of my target at 50 yds....elk in bow range (ones I want to kill) rattle me, I need a big target or i'm not shooting.....I will keep working hard until I get that big target...maybe it's a spike late in the season, but i'm ok with that.....I never feel I deserve a big one, I just want a bunch of memories and a freezer full of elk at the end of September

[lamrith]

IF I did not react fast enough to get that 1st shot off, this would be my next (and last) one. 5th picture I would not shoot.

OK, let me quarterback Lamrith’s shot. Just as he releases an arrow from his old dusty Elite, the bull tilts his head back a hair and the arrow hits the bull in his left antler, right below the 5th point (1) BAM. From that point, Lamrith’s crooked old rusty arrow ricochets and heads to the bulls right antler, half way up his 6th point (2).. CRACK, it then shoots straight down to the lower part of his right antler (3) WACK. From there, his arrow kicks off back to the right and hits the bull right above his 3rd point (4), ZONK, and shoots straight up in the sky (5) but hits an Idaho squirrel in the head and ricochets back down (WOOSH) and hits the bull’s right antler yet again (6) BOINK. From there, Lamrith’s broken up old arrow still has the energy to blast back towards the bull’s right chest pocket (7) THUNK, and push all the way through the bull’s vitals till it exits at point 8. The bull falls in his tracks, Lamrith gets a big grin on his face, and reaches for his pack to get camera and clip shot ready for some serious hero photos. Nice shooting buddy

photo4.JPG

That's why I shoot a bigboy bow and have a 31" draw, lots of energy to play pinball with 300spine my arrows and still GIT ER DONE!

[lamrith]

I do agree, but at the same time, one opportunity lost, usually means another gained

Very true. Though it may not be an opportunity for you, it may be for your hunting partner.

My 1st hunting trip I went to Eastern WA for late Sept Archery mulies. 45min into my 1st day I was full dray 40yrds on a motionless doe. I was not 100% on some brush between me and her so I let her go. 3hrs later I was once again at full draw hoping a buck I could see would come into an opening, he never did and I let down and waited. I heard a huff of breath and some stomping then quiet. That quiet was broken 10seconds later by a "twang"- ffffffttt - "THWACK" as my hunting partner put an arrow in the boiler room on that buck after it had bedded down 30yrds in front of him (30yrds to my left and out of all sight). Nice big 4x5 Mulie was in the truck and on the stove that night!

[Roosiebull]

I do agree, but at the same time, one opportunity lost, usually means another gained

Very true. Though it may not be an opportunity for you, it may be for your hunting partner.

My 1st hunting trip I went to Eastern WA for late Sept Archery mulies. 45min into my 1st day I was full dray 40yrds on a motionless doe. I was not 100% on some brush between me and her so I let her go. 3hrs later I was once again at full draw hoping a buck I could see would come into an opening, he never did and I let down and waited. I heard a huff of breath and some stomping then quiet. That quiet was broken 10seconds later by a "twang"- ffffffttt - "THWACK" as my hunting partner put an arrow in the boiler room on that buck after it had bedded down 30yrds in front of him (30yrds to my left and out of all sight). Nice big 4x5 Mulie was in the truck and on the stove that night!

one of the many things that keeps it interesting if I am hunting with someone, I assume they get the chance....get to be a part of it, and I get to keep hunting...a big win for all involved...it can get kind of funny how those things work out.

[TimeOnTarget]

I guess the moral of this story (thread) is that shots at elk are fleeting at best in many situations you'll find yourselves in, and, a hunter should take the first kill shot that presents itself (be opportunistic). Yah, I know I threw you cats off with the "patience" in the title; I know, I'm a stinker but patience doesn't necessarily mean wait, wait, wait till a broadside shot develops. I think there are a few good opportunities in this scenario to fill the freezer; when the right situation/kill shot present itself, its the cold hard heart that reacts to what is offered and the shot is on its way without much thought (no time for second guessing, retrospect on a past bad experience, newer hunter knee knocking, etc.). Agree? RJ

So which shots are you taking WT?

[WapitiTalk1]

So which shots are you taking WT?

I see clean kill shot opportunities in both post 1 and post 22 images/angles that I would not hesitate taking. But, I won't ricochet my arrow of the bull's antlers in post 22 like Lamrith did . For those of you who don't know, Lamrith (Larry) is one of my hunting buddies and I'm just busting his chops a bit; he's an excellent archer .

[TimeOnTarget]

So which shots are you taking WT?

I see clean kill shot opportunities in both post 1 and post 22 images/angles that I would not hesitate taking. But, I won't ricochet my arrow of the bull's antlers in post 22 like Lamrith did . For those of you who don't know, Lamrith (Larry) is one of my hunting buddies and I'm just busting his chops a bit; he's an excellent archer .

These posts have really opened my eyes to frontal shots. I've never taken them but I'm repeatedly seeing people with a lot more experience than I saying its a good shot to take.

#22 is a shot I'd take all day long.

[lamrith]

So which shots are you taking WT?

I see clean kill shot opportunities in both post 1 and post 22 images/angles that I would not hesitate taking. But, I won't ricochet my arrow of the bull's antlers in post 22 like Lamrith did . For those of you who don't know, Lamrith (Larry) is one of my hunting buddies and I'm just busting his chops a bit; he's an excellent archer .

Why take the easy shot when you can minigolf it! Just watch out that I do not bounce one off the back of your head. You thought that Rock incident was an accident. Maybe I was just trying to build up scar tissue and harden up that head of yours some more so you are ready come Elk season!

[WapitiTalk1]

These posts have really opened my eyes to frontal shots. I've never taken them but I'm repeatedly seeing people with a lot more experience than I saying its a good shot to take.

Frontal shots and even slightly quartering to shots can be deadly but as with any shot on a big game critter, placement is crucial as well as the mood of the animal at that exact moment in time and obviously, distance (arrow flight time) from shooter to target must be considered. Knowledge of an elk's anatomy is another factor that one must know before loosing an arrow in any shooting situation.

[Lefty]

one opportunity lost, usually means another gained

Ya know how many times that has backfired for me
But Ill continue making wrong choices,.. just gives me more days to hunt