Shoot or No Shot Episode #1, 2017 UPDATED WITH VIDEO

[WapitiTalk1]

Date/Time: Early September, 2017/8:30 AM
Location: Somewhere in the elk woods
Hunt Pressure Status: Minimal
Hunt: Partner Hunt
Tag: Archery tag; any bull.

Well, that was pretty amazing. You (the shooter) and your buddy (the caller) hiked in to a new pine bench you'd identified on your map scouting the night before and after seeing some fresh sign, decided to do an advertising sequence. The caller did a fine job of advertising with his calling, brush smashing, ground kicking, etc., off and on for close to 20 minutes without hearing a peep or seeing anything come in. Just a minute ago, you'd looked back in the direction of the caller, got his attention, and gave him the hands up, shoulder shrug (are you ready to move on?) signal and the caller signaled you back with a "just another few minutes". OK, after the caller did another sequence with just brush raking and breaking some branches, the woods go silent again... almost. You first hear what sounds like some whimpery cow mews coming from your 10:00 and then see... "antler tips"; holy hell, it’s a bull coming in! You draw right before this guy stops in the opening and screams in your general direction. You're already at full draw, perhaps 25 yards from the bull in the direction of the arrow. Your buddy is perhaps 40 yards in the direction of his arrow, and, you can see the wind/thermals direction.

Shot or no shot here?

If you're shooting, save the picture to your desktop and open in MS Paint, then place a spot, X, or whatever on the critter before you save it back to a jpg or png and add the marked up pic with your post.

[TimeOnTarget]

While I'd love to have this scenario play out like you described, but I'd have to pass on this shot. I won't take this shot on a whitetail, so i wont on an elk.

[lamrith]

I am with Time on Target, no shot for the shooter really. Now hopefully you and your calling partner have talked about this sort of thing in advance, and are prepared to switch roles. No time to do hand signals in heat of moment you you need to be in tune with each other. Angle wise the caller has a better shot opportunity, but with those thermals he is going to have to be on it and ready to shoot if he has unobstructed shot...

[Swede]

I think I will have a good shot very soon. For now I need to wait until he moves. I can hold at full draw for several minutes, but the bull needs to move pretty soon.

[Kessler10]

If i am reading the wind arrows correctly the bull will wind the caller any second. I would not think any better shot would come. With that being said if I feel comfortable with my stance and feel i am holding my pin steady, the thought of slipping one right behind his shoulder would cross my mind. i know he is quartering to me, but feel at 25 yards I can place an arrow very accurately if i have my emotions in check. I think a well placed shot here can for sure be deadly. that is not saying its an ideal shot. But this would be my thought process in the heat of the moment. Cant say for sure if I would let one go or not

[Swede]

Luke, I sure understood the wind to be blowing across the side of the bull from his left side. If the wind was blowing towards the bull, RJ could have placed the arrow in front of him, even if it was angling some.

[WapitiTalk1]

Guys, this is a classic set up with the wind in play. Where do you set up your shooter? Where the bull may come in to try to scent check the calling he hears, away and off to the side a bit of the caller (ya, the arrows are perhaps a bit off from a classic setup but close). Do you have a lot of time to figure out how long the bull will stay? Nope, not usually once he comes in. Does it always play out this way (that the bull comes in upwind from the shooter)? Nope.. Sometimes they kamikaze in with no prior thought to the wind. In this scenario, the caller is behind the shooter as far as needed, terrain allowing. Certainly with more open country, the distance between caller and shooter may be much farther. Back on topic. This bull came in pretty silent (well, with the exception of the funny cow like sounds he was making), until he got to a spot where he figured he should see or smell something so he let out a rebel yell (if he would have been on full alert, and possibly suspected something was really stinky, he most likely would have bolted or given a nervous grunt. The shooter (you) are at full draw, 25ish yards away, with the bull 100% involved in his vocalization. Now, is anybody confident enough to take this shot and bring this bull home for dinner? I know my answer but as usual, I "lay it out so ya'all can play it out"

[Mathewsz7-elkridge]

I would take the shot if everything felt right. Right where the red dot is then waiting a hour and half to start tracking.

[Swede]

Mathewsz7, it looks like you will get one lung only. The shot will likely be lethal, but I would anticipate a long difficult tracking job. When the arrow comes out it will be barely behind the critter's left shoulder. Since I have never seen this particular shot, I am going to wait on more experienced hunters to tell us what they think. I am glad you took the shot here as it will draw out good information. If I was going to take that shot I would crowd the bull's right shoulder more. I look forward to seeing other opinions now.

[Elkhunttoo]

If I was to take the shot I would aim about 2-3 inches above and 1 inch left of Mathewsz7 dot. 25 yards would be pushing my max for pin point accuracy and so if I was shaking at all this bull would walk... what a pretty bull though!

[TimeOnTarget]

interesting answers, I would have never even considered shooting this bull behind the shoulder at that strong of an angle. You'd only be getting 1 lung and maybe the liver at this angle and The chance of arrow deflection would be to great IMHO.

I would shoot about the same spot as Z7 indicated if I were to shoot.

I'd have a very hard time shooting this bull though and here is my reasoning. I've shot 2 big Midwestern whitetails head on with a rifle. 1st one was with a .243 using 100grn Winchester PP ammo. Scant blood trail and deer was never recovered, so no idea what actually happened other than it was not recovered.

2nd was a 165" bruiser at about 100yds using a 270wsm pushing 130grn hornady interlocks. The buck dropped in his tracks thrashed around a bit, then expired. Upon butchering him, i found the bullet had hit his sternum, followed along the outside of his ribs between the hide and the ribcage and stopped about 2 ribs short of the back of his rib cage. The bullet NEVER penetrated his chest cavity. Luckily, I had gotten some arteries in neck region or he would've been gone as well.

I know comparing rifle to archer is an apple to oranges deal but Elk are a hell of a lot tougher than whitetails....

[>>>---WW---->]

If you want that bull, you better do it now. One more step, or possibly even before he finishes his bugle, he is going to wind one or both of you.

Mathews 7's red dot is spot on. There is all sorts of major arteries and vessels in that area, not to mention the lung that will be compromised and the aorta to the heart. That bull will be down in less than 40 yards. However, unless the shooter has ice in his veins and is unnerved by a big bull bugling in his face at close range, I wouldn't recommend the shot. But if you are a cold blooded/premeditated type, GO FOR IT!

[WapitiTalk1]

>>>---WW---->, yes sir! At this moment in time, the bull is not on extremely high alert (screaming and demanding a visual or response from the bull he heard). Remember, a bull can pinpoint where sounds come from in a really uncanny way and this guy moved in to a exact spot, stopped where he figured he should see (and soon smell) something, and bugled. This situation is fleeting, probably no more than a few seconds, and it's getting ready to change in the blink of an eye. A guy can either wait and see if perhaps the bull takes a step or two forward (probably ain't gonna happen), or, can touch off a well placed arrow and get ready to be the caller for his partner(s) for the rest of the hunt. Like WW mentioned, if you have any reservations about your accuracy at 25 yards in this chaotic situation (for this shot, you need to be able to hit a softball size target) and do not possess the "ice in the veins, things like this don't rattle you" trait at this point in your hunting career, perhaps pass. This shot is not for everybody but it is a very deadly shot.

Dead elk walking in my mind, but please, continue the discussion!

elk%20bugling1.jpg (188.66 KiB) Viewed 60335 times

[Mathewsz7-elkridge]

Shooting for me is all about confidence. You need to think about what kind of shot opportunities are going to come up ahead time. No where the shot needs to be and if you can make it. There isn't a whole lot of time to think when the shot opportunity is there. Personally I am hitting a softball size bullseye at 60 yards 3 out of 5 times. Which is what I make my target size at for plus 60 yards shots. At 30 yards a can hit a baseball almost every time. While practicing in the yard. I run to get my blood pressure up and then take a shot. Also I will hold for a minute and a half then take a shot. It helps me find my effective ranges and builds my confidence.

Another thing with practicing note when you miss your mark where do you tend to hit. I always seem to miss high.

[jmez]

I'm taking that shot at 25 yards. Right where Phantom put the circle. Slightly higher than Mathews z-7. Deadly shot, you hit him there he won't make it 50 yards. Won't be any need for a blood trail. Going to take off the top of the heart, great vessels and L lung.

[>>>---WW---->]

Yep! I also like RJ's spot slightly better but both will work. And remember, This is the real deal, not a paper target. No insult intended. But you don't have to have that killer instinct to shoot paper.

[saddlesore]

I don't agree that you will take off the top of it's heart.The heart is much lower.I agree that you will only take one lung and that ends up being a long tracking job.
This is one of those occasions that guys ( or gals ) take the shot because they are so hung up on having to take an elk home when they should pass.
Even with a rifle shooting thru the near shoulder,you waste a heck of a lot of meat,but more to the left and down a smidge you would get the heart IF you were shooting a tough enough bullet.

With a rifle,the only shot opportunity I see is a neck shot, taking out the spine.I'd probably wait for a better shot opportunity

[WapitiTalk1]

Folks, images below for your review. This frontal shot is a very deadly shot with a bow but as mentioned, shot placement must be correct. I personally don't consider this shot at anything farther than 25ish yards max. It'll drop them like a bad habit with accurate arrow placement. Oftentimes in calling situations, this is the angle that will present itself so if you're confident in your shooting ability, don't rattle easily, and fully understand the animal's physical makeup (skeletal structure, organs and circulatory system), this shot works fine and will bring the bacon home so to speak. It is amazing the internal damage done by a well placed broad head using a frontal shot; they don't go far.

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[jmez]

The small circle is the shoulder joint. The larger circle approximates the thoracic inlet. The lower line is the level of the apex of the heart, the upper line is the level of the base of the heart. The great vessels all come out of the base of the heart, travel up and forward then arch back. If you get your arrow into the thoracic inlet dead animal.

[Trumkin the Dwarf]

Longbow shooter here. I wouldn't be at full draw if he were 25 yards out. Now...if you told me 5-10 yards? I'd be giving him the business! First dot placed (z7's) would do the trick.

[Swede]

I think what is missing is that the arrow begins too close to the center of the bull and is heading to its left side too strong. The arrow will pass well in front of the heart and just clip the left lung. If the bull was facing more toward the shooter, I would take the shot.
RJ said the bull was upwind of the shooter.

Does it always play out this way (that the bull comes in upwind from the shooter)?

Well if he is upwind of the shooter, as opposed to being downwind, he will not catch any scent. I would expect even Trumpkin would get a shot if the caller stays hidden 40 yards back of the shooter.

[WapitiTalk1]

Ha, meant downwind. This head/chest cold is messing with my head :0

[otcWill]

Difficult shot with a small margin for error at 25 yds. Here is a bull I shot from nearly the exact same angle but turned to the left, hard quartered to. In the pic the head is turned so it pulls the point of impact over at least 4" from where the entry actually was, just in front of the left shoulder. The arrow exited just behind the crease on his right shoulder. The bull went 25yds and was dead in less than 10 seconds. The stuff directly in front of the heart is just as vital as any part of the kill zone. Miss this shot by more than 2" either way and you won't be recovering your bull

[saddlesore]

I think what is missing is that the arrow begins too close to the center of the bull and is heading to its left side too strong. The arrow will pass well in front of the heart and just clip the left lung. If the bull was facing more toward the shooter, I would take the shot.
RJ said the bull was upwind of the shooter.

Does it always play out this way (that the bull comes in upwind from the shooter)?

Well if he is upwind of the shooter, as opposed to being downwind, he will not catch any scent. I would expect even Trumpkin would get a shot if the caller stays hidden 40 yards back of the shooter.

Totally agree with Swede

[saddlesore]

Difficult shot with a small margin for error at 25 yds. Miss this shot by more than 2" either way and you won't be recovering your bull

Exactly what I was getting at.How many can guarantee exact shot placement within 2" ? Many say they can, but I seriously doubt it.
Most on here are probably serious archers ,and probably makeup 10% or less of all stick thrower. It's the other 90% that couldn't do it.

I don't see it any different than passing on a difficult shot with a center fire rifle or muzzle loader

[Swede]

Assuming Saddlesore and otcWill are correct, we have a problem folks.

Miss this shot by more than 2" either way and you won't be recovering your bull

Obviously a shot placement review shows the places where different "shooters" have declared is the right place to hit the bull covers at least 6 inches. In addition, the angle the bull presents considerably narrows the window for a clean humane kill, if it exists at all. A frontal shot at best is one where you need to know precisely where to shoot. Many hunters will pass on a frontal for that reason. RJ's bull has magnified the difficulty factor considerably.

[WapitiTalk1]

To continue this discussion a bit further, would anybody consider this shot at 25 yards?

elk%20bugling12.jpg (188.82 KiB) Viewed 60226 times

[Swede]

That is a great bull and I would love to take it home in a cooler. I like this shot just a tiny bit better that the other option being discussed. I would pass here too, but theoretically if I did take it, then I would listen to see if somehow I got lucky and it went down right away. If I could not be certain, then I would back away for most of the night or 6 hours in the day and come back and start my search. The bull will die, but it could be a long slow process. Most likely the bull will go about 100 yards and bed down to experience a slow death.

Thanks RJ for a provoking and interesting thread. I enjoy the comments here and think they can be helpful. There is a veterinarian on a forum, but I don't remember who or where. I wish I had his insight on these things.

[lamrith]

Yes thank you for the continued guidance and additional information in this thread. Still not an optimum shot for many, but 25yrds, after seeing the detailed information on skeletal/vascular system and such it is one I am beginning to understand and feel confident making. (newby shake syndrome aside)

[jmez]

No for me on the second shot.

[jmez]

That is a great bull and I would love to take it home in a cooler. I like this shot just a tiny bit better that the other option being discussed. I would pass here too, but theoretically if I did take it, then I would listen to see if somehow I got lucky and it went down right away. If I could not be certain, then I would back away for most of the night or 6 hours in the day and come back and start my search. The bull will die, but it could be a long slow process. Most likely the bull will go about 100 yards and bed down to experience a slow death.

Thanks RJ for a provoking and interesting thread. I enjoy the comments here and think they can be helpful. There is a veterinarian on a forum, but I don't remember who or where. I wish I had his insight on these things.

I'm a veterinarian.

[>>>---WW---->]

Dang it RJ! You sure like to stir the pot, don't cha! The wind is still iffy at best and 2 inches either way could make for bad placement. However, I went with that shot once. The bull was at 8 yards when I took the shot and only went 20 yards before piling up.

But to help you stir things up a little more, I was using a strong cut on contact fixed blade broadhead that easily slid right on in. As a matter of fact, It went in so deep that I couldn't even see it. I did the gutless method on him and never did retrieve my arrow. I have heard horror stories of guys taking similar extreme angle shots like this with mechanicals and the arrow glanced off a bone and slid down the outside of the rib cage.

[>>>---WW---->]

Oh, I forgot to mention: Like I stated, the bull was at 8 yards when I took that shot. Had he been out past 10 yds., I would never have shot. I'm no super target archer.

[Swede]

I'm a veterinarian.

Thanks jmez. And I thought you were just another hunter like the rest of us. I figured you read some internet link and learned the technical terms you used on-line. Well "just another hunter like the rest of us" except for WW who has made that shot. He is the voice of reason and experience. Sometimes.

[saddlesore]

To continue this discussion a bit further, would anybody consider this shot at 25 yards?

elk%20bugling12.jpg

I think this angle is about as bad. Maybe a tiny bit better,but off a hair and you have gut shot bull with little chance of recovery.

As most can tell,I am real conservative about taking less than ideal shots. Maybe it is because I have killed enough elk in my life time that I don't really need to kill another,or it could be that I have helped track and recover and sometimes not recover other hunters poor shot placement or lack of sound judgement of taking the shot in the 1 st place for more times than I want to remember. In all my years of hunting, I have not recovered two elk and one deer. They were a long time ago, but I can remember every detail. Then a lot of the elk I have killed and recovered, I only remember because of the punched tag or photograph that I ha/ve

[Mathewsz7-elkridge]

Personally I wouldn't take the quartering to behind the shoulder shot at this range. Mainly because I feel the ribs are going to be tough to penetrate at this angle.

With the bulls angle I feel the frontal shot is actually better then when it's straight on. Your room for error hasn't reduced by much if any really. When an animal is straight on you need more penetration through more animal to get farther in the chest cavity because you have to go through more neck muscle. The frontal shot your goal is to cut as many major blood vessels as possible. Hitting one lung is just adding to the blood lose. My mark is as tight as you can probably get to the front shoulder. I would aim for the center of the kill zone. I just placed that mark there because I felt with the angle that would cut the most not my aiming point. RJs spot would be closer to my aiming point on the frontal shot.

[Mathewsz7-elkridge]

Here is a Sika I killed with a hard quartering away shot. I hit him right behind the shoulder at 11 yards the arrow went out the front of his neck as you can see in the picture. I know its not a frontal shot but the path the arrow took is just the opposite. I was never a fan of the frontal shot until I took this shot. The blood this animal left was insane and he was dead in seconds and went 40 yards. I know the animal is much smaller than a elk but I do feel the results will be about the same.

[lamrith]

To continue this discussion a bit further, would anybody consider this shot at 25 yards?

elk%20bugling12.jpg

I think this angle is about as bad. Maybe a tiny bit better,but off a hair and you have gut shot bull with little chance of recovery.

As most can tell,I am real conservative about taking less than ideal shots. Maybe it is because I have killed enough elk in my life time that I don't really need to kill another,or it could be that I have helped track and recover and sometimes not recover other hunters poor shot placement or lack of sound judgement of taking the shot in the 1 st place for more times than I want to remember. In all my years of hunting, I have not recovered two elk and one deer. They were a long time ago, but I can remember every detail. Then a lot of the elk I have killed and recovered, I only remember because of the punched tag or photograph that I ha/ve

Nothing wrong with that at all, and agree I would not take a behind the shoulder shot as the margin for error is even smaller than the frontal shot presented.

Mathewsz7 - That is a great point and thanks for sharing. That reciprocal angle shot does show just how much damage that arrow path can create and how effective it is and is very much worth knowing for if we are presented such a shot form either direction. The challenge some of us face though is that the margin for error is much smaller on the frontal shot, you have to hit that smaller window to get to the vitals just right. The quartering away shot both lungs and heart are much more open, if you are an inch or two off you are still hitting at least one lung at minimum. Miss by that much on frontal and you have a wounded elk, maybe survivable, maybe not, but looking at a long night and next day tracking to figure to which.

As a newer hunter myself I appreciate the time more experienced hunters take to share their knowledge and experiences, both good and bad. Humans by nature learn more from failure than success many times. I thought I had a decent understanding of elk anatomy, but I have learned even more from this thread. THANKS GUYS!

[Elkhunttoo]

I think bringing up the broad head is important to consider in the head on shot. I have never used mechanical broad heads (illegal in Idaho) but the hair on the neck is to long I would wonder if that would have any effect, maybe it wouldn't but I think the cut on contact would be better in this situation.

[Mathewsz7-elkridge]

I think bringing up the broad head is important to consider in the head on shot. I have never used mechanical broad heads (illegal in Idaho) but the hair on the neck is to long I would wonder if that would have any effect, maybe it wouldn't but I think the cut on contact would be better in this situation.

Not only that but have a fixed blade broad head and an animal running around with it still inside can cause more damage.

[Mathewsz7-elkridge]

I think this would be the kill zone on this bull with the frontal shot. What do you guys think? I think the higher the hit the farther the bull will go. What do you guys think to big or about right?

[Elkhunttoo]

Looks right to me on the kill zone. This is a great post for me to show my wife, this is the shot I was explaining to her last year and with the dots and marks it will help a ton.... on a different note a guy has to make sure his nerves are in check before you let any arrow fly. I let a 6 point bull walk 3 seasons ago broad side at 45 yards...I drew, didn't think I was nervous but from holding still when I moved to draw the addrinalin kicked in and my arms were just way to shaky to make that shot even with the broad side bigger kill zone. Win some, lose some, but know win to let them walk

[ishy]

I'm taking the frontal shot, no way on the behind the shoulder. I'm not even sure where RJ's dot is you are going to clear the scapula.

[bowhuntermojo]

I am taking the shot right at the thoracic inlet. With confidence and practice this is a very doable kill shot for me. Now if I can only get an opportunity such as this

[WapitiTalk1]

Excellent discussion! Thank you members of the mighty WT forum

[Lefty]

Reading all of the above I didnt change my mind.
Most days Im not taking that shot. But idf I drew an felt steady I would.
Under 20 I would be taking it

[Old school]

I believe that z7 has it correctly marked in his last post and I'm taking that shot as long as I'm composed. I would not take the 2nd shot RJ posted further back behind the shoulder, seems too iffy to me and as others have said, I see a strong possibility of either a gut shot or a shoulder hit.

--Mitch

[WapitiTalk1]

Update: I share these scenario threads on a couple of other hunting forums besides WT; I enjoy seeing various hunter perspectives based on their experience with the various situations I pose. A very accomplished hunter and really, one of the best guys you can bump into on any hunting forum, posted this video up with these comments.

"RJ, this one is for you! The link is to a very well done elk hunting video. The guys did a great job hunting and videoing...not easy to do.

We were talking about this shot recently on one of RJ's shot scenarios- with an elk quartering to you- this one at 15 yards.

The shot is right about the 10:15 mark [but its worth watching the whole thing if you have time] , and then they do a slo mo with excellent resolution at about 11:45. Stop it after the shot at 10:15 and answer the questions:
Good shot/Dead bull?
How far did he go?
Then ask yourself the same questions after the slo mo.......

Lets not give away the answer for at least the first handful of posts....just say if it was as you originally thought or not. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a bull come in like this quartering to like that.....a lot." This was posted by Beendare (Bruce) on AT.

Like Bruce mentioned, watch the first portion of the VID, stop it right after the 10:15 mark and answer the questions posed above, then, watch the slow motion segment at 11:45 and see if your answers changed from the 10:15 scene. I think this VID will spark some really good chatter on these types of shot selections. RJ

[N2mywake]

I'll save my comments. I just watched this video on the treadmill last night. Great footage, great hunt, I was amazed at the outcome.

[Elkhunttoo]

I actually watched this video a few days ago... great video and he says it right in the end as hunters all we can do is try and do it right for a good lethal kill. When I saw this the other day I showed my wife and told her to not take that shot. To me this is one of the reasons I visit sites like this and YouTube, we can always learn and I can show my wife who is three years into hunting situations that she hasn't been in yet to gain experience and knowledge at a more rapid pace.

[Old school]

It turned out just as I initially thought after the shot. Always seems a lot easier to know what to do when you've got a computer monitor in front of you rather than a bugling bull.

--Mitch

[T.B.]

What an outstanding video to go along with the original scenario!
A great learning tool . Thanks phantom for these scenarios and all those that contribute.
By the way this type of discussion coupled with the video gets me through the winter and excited for hunts I haven't yet done.

[ishy]

So I'm still not liking that shot...his turned out good but man on a moving target between trees that is pretty iffy. I think his biggest advantage was that close leg was forward when he shot giving him some very precious inches of clearance more than what the first pic gave us. My question is was he watching that leg or was he shooting in that window either way? It that shoulder was back I doubt that story ends like it did. With a relaxed bull still coming you are in the drivers seat as long as you are already at full draw. I don't think you are risking anything letting him take a few more steps and then you have removed any question. The vitals are opening more with each step he takes. The bull doesn't appear to have any clue and if he does see/smell you at that distance you're still going to be able to take a better shot. 15 yards quartering to vs probably 10 broadside? I know which one I'd take, let him keep coming.

[Elkhunttoo]

I believe in the video he says something to the effect of, "he wasn't as broad sided as I thought"....I wonder if it was as simple as he was paying attention to the leg and not the overall angle. As soon as he saw the leg go forward he released

[CurlyTail]

Almost missed this great thread.

In the original photo RJ posted, I would not call this a "frontal" shot, it appears to be a "quartering to" shot. I would not shoot, and wait for a better shot opportunity.

I am a proponent of lighted nocks as they aide greatly in seeing where your arrow strikes. It is critical to get an accurate reading on shot placement when you decide whether to track or leave the Bull overnight.

For me to take a frontal shot it needs to be less than 20 yards, and dead on frontal so my arrow can do as much damage to midline structures as possible.

[Lefty]

I watcher the shot a few time pause and play.
I know the camera angle wasn't the same view as the shooter, Walking like that I dont think Im taking the shot he did.
I may wait until that bull was broad side 3or 5 yards away,.

[Dr. Rx]

Thank you for that video..

Question for the Elk course..I've never been in that situation...
Is this where one would use a popping grunt to stop the elk and get a better shot?

They got very lucky finding that elk

Kris

[WapitiTalk1]

Thank you for that video..

Question for the Elk course..I've never been in that situation...
Is this where one would use a popping grunt to stop the elk and get a better shot?

They got very lucky finding that elk

Kris

Yes sir! Always have the nervous grunt ready to throw (be it with a tube/diaphragm when in the caller role, or, with your voice in lone hunter mode)! I haven't said much in this thread as there has been so much good discussion but with hindsight as a virtue after watching the VID, "if" the shooter could/would have waited just a few more seconds... the caller could/should have thrown a nervous grunt and that bull would have stopped on a dime and possibly been in a better position for a shot. Hard to say how each situation shakes out but absolutely, have that nervous grunt in your pocket each and every time a bull is coming in, or, a bull is moving by to stop him in his tracks...

[Beendare]

Heck...you guys have Mez on here....he has forgotten more about anatomy than I ever knew.

You guys pretty much covered this one...it really boils down to confidence in the shot...if not...don't take it.

For me confidence on the shot boils down to 3 things;
1) Assessing possible shot angle/body position
2) Assessing body LANGUAGE
3) Knowing my capability as a shooter and what my equipment is capable of

So starting with #3, my bows are setup for additional penetration and I have put arrows through both scapulas of an elk with it sailing 100 yds past the bull...[so covered there] and shooting wise I'm a fan of these layup shots. Body language; you have to love when those bulls are bugling or don't have a clue you are there as you don't have to worry about the bull moving much on a close range shot. Elk don't react whitetail fast....but I have seen a perfect heart shot turned 'back ham' on a 55 yarder.

Then there is body position that concerns some here. I've seen between 8-10 bulls killed with this shot....4 or 5 myself...and none lost if you keep it in that collar in front of the shoulder. The only bull i've lost was 20 years ago on a shot like this where I shot him behind the shoulder like in the video. actually, that vid brought it all back for me to rehash my mistake....one that still haunts me.

[WapitiTalk1]

For me confidence on the shot boils down to 3 things;

1) Assessing possible shot angle/body position
2) Assessing body LANGUAGE
3) Knowing my capability as a shooter and what my equipment is capable of

So starting with #3, my bows are setup for additional penetration and I have put arrows through both scapulas of an elk with it sailing 100 yds past the bull...[so covered there] and shooting wise I'm a fan of these layup shots. Body language; you have to love when those bulls are bugling or don't have a clue you are there as you don't have to worry about the bull moving much on a close range shot. Elk don't react whitetail fast....but I have seen a perfect heart shot turned 'back ham' on a 55 yarder.

Then there is body position that concerns some here. I've seen between 8-10 bulls killed with this shot....4 or 5 myself...and none lost if you keep it in that collar in front of the shoulder. The only bull i've lost was 20 years ago on a shot like this where I shot him behind the shoulder like in the video. actually, that vid brought it all back for me to rehash my mistake....one that still haunts me.

Thanks for sharing that mister (great analysis based off of experience) and welcome to the WT campfire Bruce.. Thanks for swinging by . RJ