Best Debates

[Swede]

Over the yeas I have read and/or participated in some great elk hunting debates. Both sides expressed some excellent points. The winners were the readers, many of whom I assume were just lurkers. What I would like to do is reflect on some debates and maybe get us involved in some new ones.
One of my favorite debates revolved around calling from a tree stand. I am a proponent of usually staying very quiet. Others will try to supplement their natural honey hole with some cow calls. I don't know of anyone that bugles from a tree, and no one I know still makes the mistake of answering a bull. Ya, I did it a few times as I was a slow learner.
Another good debate revolves around the frequency location, and sounds of calling. These debates seem to depend on the area being called. I like to suggest that it is ok for Elknut to go around the woods with his Lil Screamer diaphragm, sounding like a cat that just had a rocking chair roll back on his tail, but don't peddle that noise where I hunt.
So what do you think? What quality debates would you like to see here, and how much would you like to see them expounded on?

[ElkNut1]

OK, here you go! Should we fear the bugle? You lean in that direction. We've called in hundreds of bulls & contacted some where between one & two thousand bulls all on OTC DIY Public Land elk hunts. Should we stop because of your findings? Of course not. So the real question is why do you have issues with bugling or any calling in general? Something to consider? Calling elk for location purposes is a hunters best friend no matter the country you hunt! Swede, you're an awesome Treestand hunter but calling is an art, it takes time to master as you go through the various trials & errors! Don't give it up yet! (grin)

ElkNut1

[Swede]

One late morning I heard a bugle from the forest. It was about 300 yards below where I was perched in my tree stand. It sounded good. Within a couple of minutes a group of 5-6 cows passed by. They went behind me just out of shooting range. Within a couple more minutes another herd of cows went by about 100 yards in front of me. The bull down slope kept bugling with some regularity. This bull was real. He made those guttural sounds no human can imitate. I was standing with my bow in hand as he closed the distance to where I was at. His path would surely bring him right up to the wallow below. I waited with great anticipation until I saw him, or them. It was Mike Slinkard with his grunt tube and a partner. I was devastated. I would not have believed it, if I had not witnessed it, and I got out of my stand and talked with them.

The elk that passed by that morning were about the last I saw in that canyon for the season. It was a typical situation, except the bugling was excellent. More often than not the bugling is faulty and easily recognized as coming from a hunter.
Where I hunt the elk are now gone from my area after 4-5 days of hunting. This last season I saw my one and only elk, on public land, on the third day of the season. I will admit it is more than calling that is pushing the elk away, but common calling is significantly contributing to the problem. The elk are there right up to archery season. In the early 1990s I could get into elk there all season and often for days in a row. No more.
I am not against calling per se. I went out this year and tried to locate elk with my bugle. All I achieved was to gather hunters out trying to call elk. Some were good. Most were so-so at best. I wish people would learn to hunt elk first then improve their game with calls. Instead I see people who I suspect are reading advertisements or watching hunting videos thinking calling is the instant ticket to success on kills.

It reminds me of the old Herter's advertisements that claimed elk are easy to call and just buy our record and flute, and be an instant success. Here is a quote from two of those 1976 advertisements:
"PHONOGRAPH RECORD OF ELK CALLS There has never been a record made like this one. Contains all the calls of elk made by the best elk caller in North America plus the calls of real elk made in the field. With this record you can learn elk calling to perfection." Available in 45 RPM only. ... $2.00 each for 1-5 records
"No. 531 ELK MASTER ELK CALL. This well known call imitates exactly the call of a bugling elk. It is easy to blow. These calls have called in thousands of elk in North America and stags in Europe. They will call in elk everytime when used according to instructions that come with the call. Elk call easily, much easier than moose or deer. You can bring elk to you and avoid concentrations of hunters." Shpg. wt. ... 1-4 $3.50 each
Wow If it were just that easy. And I really wanted this call and record, but was short of cash.

Anyway, calls are tools. And like other tools, if you have the right one for the job, at the right time and place, and used properly, good things can happen. In the wrong hands at the wrong time or place or used improperly then the caller is most likely to come home with claims of almost grandeur and what might have been. Learn to hunt elk then learn to call. I know there are people that think calling is elk hunting and the elk woods is the place to start learning. To those I say "go hunt Elknut's area".

[>>>---WW---->]

Serious questions deserve good answers. But when they turn into debates they more than likely follow with argument. I would like to see all post made debate free.

[Swede]

I completely understand where you are coming from Bill. Still there are different ways to do things and no one is necessarily totally right or wrong. Some things like this calling matter work better in one place than another. There are different ways to call. All I was wanting, was to develop a dialog where different methods or experiences were brought out for discussion around the campfire. I appreciate Elknut because in the end he won't get upset if I disagree with him, and I more than understand where he is coming from.
Fellow hunter, please don't post any personal attacks on anyone, and if you are going to engage on this thread, be prepared to read a counter point. If anyone has a big ego, and thinks they have it all figured out, probably this thread could offend you. That is not what this is about but WW has a point.

Merry Christmas. I am out of here now for a few days.

[olympushunt]

I agree with WW....I don't tend to find debates particularly helpful on forums. They quickly turn into arguments. Discussions are better although we may be debating (lol) semantics at this point.
The calling discussion and elk hunting in general, for me, is about stacking the deck in my favor. I do what I can to stack that deck to be successful. We could start another "discussion" all together on what being successful is as well but that is for another thread. I don't tend to tie killing of a poor defenseless elk as the sole standard for being successful. Anyhow.... Both Swede and Elknut have great points. I do think some areas and times of the rut are less conducive to calling. You take the unit Swede hunts in and it isn't in your best interest at most times to be a caller. Lackluster responses or worse are what you are going to get. That isn't stacking the cards in your favor most of the time. However I am confident of one thing....every season elk are killed in that unit by callers. The other thing I would bet a good chunk of money on is that a guy like Paul could be do some heavy damage to the population in that unit with calling. I am sure of it. But for most people and most of the time it isn't stacking the deck. Now if you go to another unit I like to hunt where the water is much more plentiful and there are springs/wallows EVERYwhere, then treestanding is not stacking the deck in your favor.....in my opinion. It's all about analyzing the area and capitalizing on their weakness.....aka stack the deck!

[Tigger]

As soon as we exhaust the calling debate, I have a few more we can tackle:

270 or 30/06?
Mechanical or fixed blade?
shoot the roost or not?
compound or traditional?
Manning or Brady?
camo or not?
oooo.....ooooo....this is a good one......Elknut or Phantom?


Calling is the screwdriver of the elk hunting world to me. It is versatile and deadly effective. A must have in your tool belt. But it doesn't work for a hammer and thus it cannot be used in every situation.

[olympushunt]

As soon as we exhaust the calling debate, I have a few more we can tackle:

270 or 30/06?
Mechanical or fixed blade?
shoot the roost or not?
compound or traditional?
Manning or Brady?
camo or not?
oooo.....ooooo....this is a good one......Elknut or Phantom?


Calling is the screwdriver of the elk hunting world to me. It is versatile and deadly effective. A must have in your tool belt. But it doesn't work for a hammer and thus it cannot be used in every situation.

I'm dying laughing Tigger! But in all seriousness....we all know Brady is the superior quarterback.

[Indian Summer]

Bow or gun?

Ford or Chevy?

Brunettes or brunettes?

I think the biggest reason for debates when it comes to hunting tactics is because everyone's opinion is based on where they hunt. The places I hunted in Washington the elk just did NOT bugle. A bugle there could be considered elk repellent. In Montana the bulls talked just fine.... until the end of September and then they got lockjaw. In Wyoming they seem to like to hear themselves talk and keep at it until the 3rd week of October in some places. So one would serve himself well to sit in a stand in Washington, maybe consider a stand come October in Montana, or run around in Wyoming calling like the pied piper all the way into gun season.

[ElkNut1]

You want your odds to increase to hear bugling or have bulls respond to your calling then you need to be in your areas in or near Rutting/Breeding times! Outside of that it becomes a crap shoot. Right place right time! Don't think all bulls bugle everyday 24/7 for no reason. Timing is the key here!

ElkNut1

[saddlesore]

I don't get into debates.I go out and kill elk. Maybe gain a few snippets of info from forums.I post what has worked for me. If someone can gain a little from that good for them,but my way isn't the only way.

[RAMMONT]

Debates are based on arguments, arguments are simply statements of opinion based on facts. Any time you throw an opinion out to the public you will create a debate and in order to make your case for your opinion you have to base your comments on a factual argument, that's what a forum should be about. If you all you want is people posting a comment with no interaction among them then the forum would be very boring, a forum should be like a face to face conversation. Unfortunately most forums today have moderators that think that anybody that disagrees with ideas that they agree with are trolls or disruptive and they usually delete your comments or send you a nasty note about how you should be a kinder and gentler person. They destroy the concept of an open discussion and you always have to word your remarks so that the moderators wont put their noses in the air and react negatively. There is nothing wrong with an argument, the problem is that there are predominantly two kinds of people on most forums; the jerk that thinks it's funny to be rude and tries to make people angry and the snowflake that thinks he has a right to demand that everyone kiss his rump all the time.

Regardless, I've never been a caller so it's hard for me to have any real input on the usefulness of a call, on the other hand I've not taken that many elk over the years so maybe I should start learning to call. But then I've never lived in places where I've seen calls used very much and the few times I've seen them used I didn't see any results that made the effort worth while. I agree that a call is a tool but I also see the argument that calling too much can ruin an area for callers.

So the question is, if I have to spend several years being a bad caller while I learn to be a good caller, and bad callers ruin an area for good callers, then by the time I become a good caller wouldn't I have ruined my area for calling?

[saddlesore]

In Colorado,the thing about calling is that you have archery season and muzzle loader season during the rut and maybe a little bit of 1st season.You best know a darn heck of a lot more than tooting a bugle and more about other aspects of elk hunting if you want to hunt in the four later rifle seasons.

[Indian Summer]

A talk forum is obviously based on open discussion. The rules of engagement seem simple to me. Stick to the facts based on your experience. Be open minded and don't think yours is the only way.

The ways a friendly debate can go wrong are pretty basic too. Telling other people they are wrong for doing something different than you. Taking things too personal. Or the worst..... making it personal by using insults. I'm zero tolerance in that department.

Other than that I'd say it help to have a sense of humor and just stay positive.

[Lefty]

Ginger? or MaryAnne?
I like to hear opposing views. a lot can be learned and applied.
Ive hunted out of a box blind,.. Similar to Swedes waterholes. Hunting the desert spotting was more practical than calling. Bulls were just quiet once it was light.
If it wasnt for Paul I would have been even more hesitant to bugle. And I have had incredible experiences bugling.
As a younger man I was very successful ambushing critters,.. being stealthy was a skill I developed.
But I really enjoy goose hunting,.. throwing out a call, reading the birds, getting the birds to respond.

I want to be able to manipulate animals,..But I dont mind waiting them out either

There is room for all !!

[ElkNut1]

Lefty, goo to hear!

Joe, I agree 100% -- Cool thing is we all have our strengths, some are spot & stalk, some treestand, some calling. When we can all share our thoughts & insights it can help us where we may have weaknesses & want to explore beyond our comfort zones! This thread can certainly be a stepping stone to all of us, no one knows it all!

ElkNut1

[Indian Summer]

Lefty, goo to hear!

Joe, I agree 100% -- Cool thing is we all have our strengths, some are spot & stalk, some treestand, some calling. When we can all share our thoughts & insights it can help us where we may have weaknesses & want to explore beyond our comfort zones! This thread can certainly be a stepping stone to all of us, no one knows it all!

ElkNut1

Exactly. When it comes to new or different tactics... and even relocating to new hunting areas, you need to try them. Especially if things aren't panning out for you. It's amazing how reluctant guys can be to move out of an area because they have gotten to know it even though they aren't killing elk. The saying comes to mind it's better to try and fail than to never have tried at all. I even tried a mechanical broadhead once! Well only on turkeys but I gave them a chance.

Case in point: In my opinion one of the toughest animals to hunt is a big whitetail buck in the heavily populated areas in the east. I've seen easy western ones but the bucks back here can be literally impossible to kill or even see. But there are guys who have gotten pretty good at killing better bucks than most. Those same guys are some of the worst elk hunting clients I've ever guided. Their strengths were their weaknesses. They want to sit in the same place for days and be quiet. Paul I'd love to see you guide one of those dudes! When they do decide to make a move they want to sneak along at a snail's pace being careful not to snap a single twig. I had a solo bow hunter from Chicago once. 10 day hunt. Ugh! He called all the shots. I wasn't allowed to bugle or even cow call for the first 5 days. It was like September 10th to 25th too. I was about ready to pull out my parachute cord tie it around my neck and hoist myself up a tree. I think we covered 2 miles of ground in those 5 days too. So in other words we didn't do much elk hunting. Day 5 I couldn't take it. I was sitting above a slope with several benches with nice thick alders and a bunch of springs. Thermals were rising steady. I knew for a fact they were bedded down there. I asked politely "would you mind if I threw a quick bugle down there to save us some walking?" It was mid day nap time anyway so he reluctantly gave me permission to bugle... just once. That's all it took though. They elkduds hit the fan with 3 responses and that deer hunter realized what a knucklehead he must have looked like up to that point.

I guess I can't leave you hanging so here's the rest of the story. He Looked at me and said wait right here I'm going to slip in on that big sounding one and kill him. I trailed him as best I could for awhile but eventually he got lost and showed up in camp at about 1 am that night.

Here's the kicker: After that he said it was a fluke and went back to insisting that I not call or make any noise hiking. We went back to the same thing we did for the first 5 days and no he did not kill an elk.

Please sir... step away from your comfort zone and nobody gets hurt!

[Lefty]

... step away from your comfort zone and nobody gets hurt!

Out of my comfort zone becomes an adventure, And I like adventure!!!

Ive hunted and trapped a number of different states, I adapted ,.. or failed,then learned.
Ive also carried some habits to other regions. I was stopped by a couple fellows while fishing the mouth of the Lewis River on the Columbia. I was backtrolling for salmon, at that time I didnt know what to do on a hog line. These fellows were salesman from Mn and WI. and recognized my walleye technique.

In Utah I was stopped by Federal Fish and wildlife on the BRBR. I had just "rescued some other hunters We were suppose to be out of the refuge with-in an hour of sunset. The one officer was being a bit rude/authoritative. I politely mentioned they would have been the ones up all night searching for the missing hunters if I wouldn't have brought them in. The headlamp of the one officer saw my pushpole and and all the Longlines on the mallard decoys and mentioned,.." You must be from South Dakota!"
The other officer said " Nope, From Minnesota" rotating the pushpole head, the casting "Herters"

Im on this forum to experience other hunters hunts and techniques.

Swede, and Indian Summer My wife is from SE Idaho and had killed a pile of nice mule deer.
I hunted bucks northern Mn style. Get into the thick and nasty thickets and walk the moose trails, She about went ballistic when I mounted a treestand to hunt from

[Swede]

For many years I hunted without a call. Game was found and sometimes killed. I learned to find elk, and to sometimes get in reasonably close. That said, killing elk was only a once in a while proposition with a lot of unfilled tag elk seasons. Usually I rifle hunted but added a bow to extend my season. Now that calls are available, no doubt we can improve our game. A call in the right hands is deadly on elk. A call in the wrong hands just frustrates Swede and causes him to laugh out loud in his stand doubly ruining his hunt.

With that covered, what else can we discuss or debate?
How about waiting, watching and being patient while hunting? Disclaimer notice. This is not to dis anyone, but reflects on a general tendency of younger hunters especially, to feel they need to be in great shape so they can be constantly climbing the mountains. I want to talk about the hunter that travels umpteen miles in a morning fueled on grape nuts and chocolate.

Is patience and waiting universally necessary in the elk woods? I would say yes, but I hear bow hunters claim they don't have the patience to sit in a tree. The impatient bow hunter or even rifle hunter sounds like an oxymoron to me, whether on the ground or in a tree. The impatient hunter (especially bow hunters) will mess up more hunts than they will score on. Spot and stalk, run and gun or still hunting all take a lot of patience up to the point where we need to spring into action. Even on a weekend or five day hunts there is no advantage in being constantly on the move. You will leave far more game behind than you will have opportunity to shoot with too much running.
I still remember reading a story about a young man that could not understand how his grandfather always out scored him on deer hunts. It made no sense until he put his gun away one day and followed the old man around. Following granddad was easy. In fact it was almost too easy. The old man spent far more time looking and a lot less time walking. The writer realized that day what he was doing wrong and changed. Maybe arthritis or gout had made grandpa a better hunter. What do you think?