Hunt I guided and filmed

by **Gypsumreaper** » 11 30, 2016 • [Post 1]

I thought you guys would like to see this being we're all elk hunters. Little back story as it says at the beginning of the video this guy came from New Jersey to hunt Colorado elk. He spent 9 days in my home town hunting, he didn't see elk, he didn't hear elk, nothing so a friend of his had him call us for a 1 day guided hunt. A lot of the story is in this video but there is a lot of this bull and his cow wallowing 80 yards in front of me. I have never operated a camera of that magnitude before and had roughly a 2 minute tutorial from Craig basically it was, press record, if there's an elk keep him center frame, if it goes outa focus zoom out and zoom back in and try to keep on the elk after the shot until he's out of sight.

We checked this wallow that morning and I seen it was hit the night before so we went higher, and checked 2 other wallows, the highest wallow we were about 20 minutes behind a bull. So the rest of the day was looking around napping on another wallow then heading back down to the first wallow. I'm not sure how the cow did not peg me, I was in my second sequence of cow calls when I looked over and she was in the clearing. I had not begun recording yet so when she shows up on camera I had just started recording with the big camera. A few of the shots were reshots to show what we missed like me calling, but I tried to make it as true to what I did as possible. Obviously once the cow showed I couldn't call anymore, I was basically in some small aspens and had no cover so we had to let everything okay out the way that it did. This is all public land hunting, and we literally did go cut out that trail with chainsaws 2 days before the hunt, luckily it didn't bother the elk. We shot the elk around 6:40 and let him set as it was a very long shot and I wasn't 100% sure in the penetration. When we found the elk it was roughly 8pm and he was in a pretty bad spot. Luckily my co owners showed up with miles to get the bull out and we got back to the trail head at 1:30am was a great time. Plus Craig learned what a bark was and also learned that Bulls will new like a cow. I can't remember for sure if it's on there but I didn't notice the bull come into the opening until he mewed like a cow and that's what made me pan over. (He ended up skipping past the new in this edited version) Hope you guys enjoy it.
Https://vimeo.com/182855017

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

by **Lefty** » 11 30, 2016 • [Post 2]

Just a bit excited. Even on film.
great job on the video too!

by **Gypsumreaper** » 11 30, 2016 • [Post 3]

He put on roughly 90 miles of hiking before he came to us, the horses were a game changer for him. I was glad he harvested and his excitement for harvesting a nice bull. Funny thing is he kind of seen the bull come in he seen antler tips was about all and after the bull hit the wallow all he could see was the cow. He had no idea what was going on. The cow locked onto each of us a few times, but what finally got them was the wind just giving a nice little hit to the back of my neck. That's when the bull steps out of the wallow then the cow pinned me, i was focused on the bull but felt her burning a hole into me.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

by **Lost Dog** » 12 01, 2016 • [Post 4]

Thanks for sharing! Great video, almost like being there.

Congrats on a good clean hunt and a very nice bull!

by **Elkhunttoo** » 12 01, 2016 • [Post 5]

Nice hunt. Congrats!!!

by **WapitiTalk1** » 12 02, 2016 • [Post 6]

Finally got a chance to watch this last night. Absolutely excellent hunt VID Josh! I was about ready to throw that bull a bar of soap and then hand him a towel as long as he splashed around in that wallow

. That long of a shot on an alert elk (even on a non alert elk) is not my cup of tea as way too many things can go wrong, but, the shot was true and a very nice bull was recovered. Thanks for sharing the tale of the tape on this hunt; I'm ready for September!

by **Gypsumreaper** » 12 02, 2016 • [Post 7]

In total from the time the cow came out until the shot was made was around 35 minutes.
I as well would not have taken that shot, but Craig is a very accomplished shooter and had put a lot of time into practicing to those distances. But that bull was 100% alert at that point and the arrow hit perfectly. We only tracked that bull roughly 65-70 yards to where we found him. The arrow had almost a full pass through but ended up embedded in the off side ribs, my biggest worry after watching the film was penetration especially with a mechanical hybrid combo broadhead.
I can't wait until September either we've got a few Bulls on trail cams that were in this same area that should be nice next year, as well as one real big boy that our muzzleloader hunter missed at 20 yards, he got excited and hit the tree. That bull is on our hit list now he's evaded 3 of us this year.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

by **zpd307** » 12 02, 2016 • [Post 8]

nice work josh!

by **CurlyTail** » 12 02, 2016 • [Post 9]

Great video! Great wallowing action. Great genuine emotion from the hunter - he was wore down hunting hard and not seeing Elk.

Pretty impressive long shot. Better archer than me for sure. Cant figure out why he waited so long to take the shot, maybe he was hoping for a closer shot until they spooked.

by **Elkduds** » 12 02, 2016 • [Post 10]

Very good! I thought the editing on the riding-in footage was well done, almost a fade between shots to show time and miles had passed. And a fine bull to boot. Do you get many clients who say, "2 days left, take me to a honey hole?"

by **Gypsumreaper** » 12 02, 2016 • [Post 11]

Where he was at was in a depression, along with the bull being in the depression all he could really hear was splashing he seen the bull when he came in and knew he was legal. After that it was all waiting, he wanted some footage of the bull doing his thing.
He said when he stepped out of the wallow the cow was blocking his shot to the bull, she had moved over far enough to where he wasn't comfortable with trying to shoot under the cows nose and at the bull.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

by **Deanmac** » 12 02, 2016 • [Post 12]

Great hunt and video, loved watching the bull slam that water.

by **Indian Summer** » 12 03, 2016 • [Post 13]

A guy must be pretty desperate to take a shot that far with archery equipment. 94 yards! I don't care if he is an Olympic archer there are too many things that can go wrong at that distance. It's just my personal opinion but I would never let a client take a shot like that regardless of what he told me. While he proved it is possible and I'm sure elk have been arrowed further than that the fact is he was relying on more luck than I care to. Unrecovered elk make me sick in the stomach. As a former outfitter I always felt like an enabler responsible for every life taken on the mountain so if anything goes wrong I share in the responsibility for it.

I've had guys say to me "Show me an elk at 80 yards and I'll show you a dead elk".... then miss clean at 60. :roll:

Regardless... nice bull and excellent footage. And congrats on getting the job done in one day. Probably blew that guy's mind after the previous 9 days! lol

by **njdoxie** » 12 04, 2016 • [Post 14]

Way to get it done, wow, but shot seems like really stretching it. Enjoyed it.

by **Dr. Rx** » 12 04, 2016 • [Post 15]

That was awesome...what a story, what a shot, what great guiding...great testament to your company

by **Gypsumreaper** » 12 04, 2016 • [Post 16]

Indian Summer wrote:A guy must be pretty desperate to take a shot that far with archery equipment. 94 yards! I don't care if he is an Olympic archer there are too many things that can go wrong at that distance. It's just my personal opinion but I would never let a client take a shot like that regardless of what he told me. While he proved it is possible and I'm sure elk have been arrowed further than that the fact is he was relying on more luck than I care to. Unrecovered elk make me sick in the stomach. As a former outfitter I always felt like an enabler responsible for every life taken on the mountain so if anything goes wrong I share in the responsibility for it.

I've had guys say to me "Show me an elk at 80 yards and I'll show you a dead elk".... then miss clean at 60.

Regardless... nice bull and excellent footage. And congrats on getting the job done in one day. Probably blew that guy's mind after the previous 9 days! lol

I agree indiansummer, that shot could have turned out very bad, it could have been a clean miss, could have been a wounded bull. But it worked out for us on that shot, my client admitted later on that looking back he was caught up in the moment and would not take that shot again although he made it once he doesn't want to push the odds. He said partially it was 9 days catching up with him that his judgement was altered of just wanting an elk to bad.

But thanks for the praise on the filming it was great and now whenever this client comes back I have another job besides my guiding and horsemanship. His producer had even told him that there was no way I had never ran a camera before.

Although this hunt will be good for our business we have to constantly tell people that although this 1 day hunt turned out this great they very rarely happen like this. Just luckily this bull got the note I left on the tree with the script.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

by **Swede** » 12 04, 2016 • [Post 17]

Josh, I appreciate your candor on this hunt and the shot. I agree with you and I.S. "Kids don't try this at home." The likelihood is great that you will live to regret it.

by **ElkNut1** » 12 05, 2016 • [Post 18]

Just watched the video! Enjoyed the natural life of that bull & cow action, been there & witnessed it many times, it never gets old! (grin) No doubt the shot by Craig was driven by desperation on the last day of his hunt. He shared his frustration in the video so knew it was a now or never shot, can't blame him there, he knew it was his one & only chance & he did his best to at least have a chance! There's hope when there's an arrow in the air! (grin) I doubt it was a shot he would have risked taken much earlier in his hunt. If you hunt long enough you will find yourself at sometime faced with the same split second decision making dilemma. If so, hope it turns out as well as his did. Personally I'm not good enough to take shots over 60 yards so would have had to pass on the 97 yard hail mary shot! Congrats to him on killing the bull.

p.s. that bull is 280" at best! (grin)

ElkNut1

by **Kessler10** » 12 05, 2016 • [Post 19]

Awesome video!!! Thanks for sharing and congrats!!!

When watching it in slow motion the elk looks like he jumps/ducks the string, but has the opposite effect of a traditional "jump/duck the string" Traditionally if a deer or elk jumps/ducks a string the arrow goes over the top (at least that is how I use the term)

In this case it seemed (bc of how long the shot was) the shot was actually low and might of missed the bull low if the bull had not ducked before impact. It seems just as the elk starts to duck down the arrow hits right where you want it to. Meaning if the elk would not have moved the shot might of been low. I could be wrong but that is what I saw when in slow mo. tough to tell for sure.

If he felt he could make the shot that is good enough for me, as hunters we are all responsible to understand our own capabilities and use those capabilities with discretion.

Only thing would be I assume he did not have the elk ranged exactly when he shot. He had the elk ranged at 79 yards, then the bull boogered and he shot right when he stopped. If shooting that distance one criteria for me would be to be 100% sure on the exact distance via a range finder. And maybe he did, but seemed to happen to quick after he boogered. With that being said 60 yards on a perfect day is my max. But kudos to those that practice and are deadly at further distances.

I am not saying good, bad, or indifferent when talking about this shot...... just an observation that goes to show you how some days everything just comes together and its "your day" to put one on the ground.

Never get tired of watching the excitement of someone getting an archery bull, especially in the 11th hour. Good Stuff Josh!

by **Tigger** » 12 05, 2016 • [Post 20]

Kessler, I agree. I watched in slow motion and that bull definitely moved down and even a whisker ahead before the arrow hit. In other words, he missed just right. the hit was perfect, but only because the bull moved just right. Congrats to the hunter, he made it work, but I hope we all can learn from this successful hunt and not have to learn on a wounded bull. My personal max range is 50 yards because of the long flight time.

by **Gypsumreaper** » 12 05, 2016 • [Post 21]

I completely agree with you guys on the bull dropping. If he wouldn't have dropped we would have either had a low miss or a bad low wound. It did work out for us on this hunt. He did not have a range on the bull when he shot, he knew the bull was 79 at the wallows and knew the trees where the bull came out was 110. I had to range it myself later on when I packed in my camp to see for sure the distance and it was between 95-101 yards. It was hard for me to find the exact spot of the bull after looking at it from where Craig was when he shot.
As Paul said this was his last resort, he had told me that even though he had another day to hunt he was just burnt out and wasn't sure he could hack another day. So this was his last resort 1.5 hours til dark 1st and only bull/cow he had seen or heard.
Paul Craig taped him out with his trophy tape from Wildgame innovations, obviously that stuff isn't the greatest for elk and he raped him out at 299", but that didn't have deductions or anything of that matter. Imo I prefer scoring my Bulls with deductions and all that kind of stuff. Helps when my clients take one and it's not 320" like they wanted I can tell them it's 280" and they aren't as disappointed if they take it. As soon as Craig gets the official score I'll update with what he scores at.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

by **Tigger** » 12 05, 2016 • [Post 22]

There is gross score and net score (after deductions). My brother had a good way of looking at it I thought. He said, "nets are for fishing"!

But in your case Gypsum, that makes total sense to do it that way.

How do you deal with ethics in your business Gypsum? I bet you have all kinds of things pop up!

by **Gypsumreaper** » 12 05, 2016 • [Post 23]

We have had ethics issues, and it becomes a very tough thing to deal with. Somebody does something illegal and we have to be the bad guys, due to our permits and business being on the line. Things such as this archery shot with long shots, when I am guiding hunters I try my very best to keep everything as ethical as possible. This archery shot was one that the only way I would have been able to stop was to stand up when the bull took off and not allow him to stop. My Hunter was 30 yards away from me on this one and out of communication. I have had rifle hunters want to take 600+ yard shots, this is a very tough decision as I only usually get to see them practice out to 200 yards with a rifle.
We have had to turn guys in for waste, taking an illegal bull (we have a 4 point restriction).
As an outfitter it is part of our job to make sure clients follow all the rules and regs, but we also do a lot of drop camp hunts and this is usually where our ethic issues come up. As we can't stop people from doing stuff if we're not there and we usually hear about these things after they happened. If it is a huge problem we just don't invite the Hunter back.
2 years ago we had went into a drop camp to resupply a hunter. When we got there the 2 hunters were in camp and we noticed a set of antlers behind the tent, when asked we were told he had shot the bull 3 days earlier but on his way down packing out the antlers he slipped and hurt his ankle and could not go back up the very steep mountain to retrieve the rest of the bull. We asked his buddy why he did not go retrieve the meat, or why they did not call us to come get the hurt gentleman and pack the bull off the mountain, as well as why they only brought down antlers and back straps. The hurt gentlemans buddy said well it wasn't my bull I did not feel it was my job to get the meat. We had to call the Dow to come up and issue a citation. We then sent one of our guys up the mountain to check the meat and see if it was salvageable. It was not at all, and the bull only had antlers capped and backs traps removed not quartered even.
We did not invite these hunters back, not sure if they would have liked to come back regardless. It is tough and usually with fully honest mistakes the game warden makes the call, we always explain we have to do what's right and most guys do agree.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

by **Tigger** » 12 05, 2016 • [Post 24]

I can sure feel for you as it puts you in some tough situations. Dealing with the general public is a pain. But you sleep good at night! Well done

by **Gypsumreaper** » 12 05, 2016 • [Post 25]

I do love my profession, but those days like that it's puts a lot of stress on me. We have a lot of repeat clients which helps cause we know what to expect from the clients, and usually the first year with a new client is a bit stressful. But we usually end up with good clients, we have found that charging a little more than everyone else somewhat weeds out some of the high stress people. But we also put more into our hunts to make up for that extra cost.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

by **Indian Summer** » 12 06, 2016 • [Post 26]

I don't care if William Tell shows up in my camp I'm telling him no shots over 60 yards. The way to enforce it even if you are 30 yards from your desperate hunter is to inform him of your wounding policy. Tell them that if you take a Hail Mary shot and draw one drop of blood you will be leaving your bow in camp for the rest of your hunt and we will still hike your ass off all day every day looking for that elk. If they are that desperate to fill a tag they sure don't want to end their hunt that way.

No ranging at that distance????? Insanity pure and simple. Justified by admitting he was desperate? That is zero ethics. We might have been rolling around in the dirt!!!

I would have tore that guy a new a-hole. If he argued with me about it I'd show him the video that depicts a miss and his stroke of good luck which is really all that got him the bull. Sorry.

by **ElkNut1** » 12 06, 2016 • [Post 27]

Josh, thanks! No issue on the score, he just looks quite a bit shy of 300". Some guys accidentally measure at the base of the rack for circumference & that's not a legal measurement, it starts between 1st & second tine at smallest point. No big deal, it was just a thought!

As far as ethics & all much of that is tossed out the window when adrenaline gets pumping when a hunter feels pressure. No guide in the world can control & stop someones will to shoot when their mind is made up. Craig made his own decision to shoot, he was not asking Josh for advice, his mind was made up, so be it. This does not show or reflect on the type of individual Josh is at heart, he's merely the guide. It's easy to point fingers & say I would have done this or that from our PC's, not so easy in the field under pressure & the hunter is 40+ yards ahead of the guide, it's just one of those things & water under the bridge. It's good it all came out good but sure it could have went the other way. In no way can Josh be held accountable for Craig's actions, just ask Craig! -- Keep those broadheads sharp & shoot straight! (grin)

ElkNut1

by **Gypsumreaper** » 12 06, 2016 • [Post 28]

Well Indian Summer I appreciate your input. The Hunter did know my wounding animal policy, it is close to yours but I don't make hunters leave their bows in camp, that is insane to me cause if we do happen upon the wounded bull there is no means to put it down. I'm not shooting it with my sidearm that's poaching, and I'm not running up and Indian sticking him in the throat either.
And no he did not range the exact distance but he had ranged all the areas around so he know the distances in a way and had to subtract here and there depending on where the bull was.
I understand the shot was questionable to many that's not why I shared the video, it is still a questionable shot to me, I would never take it, Craig himself had even confronted me about the ethics of it, and looking back has said even though he killed the bull very quickly and effectively that it was a once in a lifetime shot. He has watched the video countless times and said if that bull wouldnt have ducked he would have missed. He himself knows it was lucky and a bit dumb on his part as well. I'm not trying to brag up Craig's archery skills. I just thought everyone would like to see the footage of the bull and cow wallowing.

All in all I appreciate your ethics input, sometimes even a wounding policy doesn't stop people from taking questionable shots. Sometimes you speed although you know for a fact what would happen if you got caught. Every one makes questionable decisions here and there, it's when the don't admit it and blame it on complete skill, Craig admitted he was in the wrong but it worked and we harvested a bull.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

by **bow82** » 12 06, 2016 • [Post 29]

Being a former guide, not for elk, but I totally agree with ElkNut. I have done safety talk with clients before. Went of the do's and don'ts of a hunt, just to have them ignore them minutes later. It can be more frustrating than raising kids. I remember a hunter carrying his gun pointed down to the ground and towards my legs during a wild quail hunt, I politely asked him to carry it pointed up and away because of the dogs, myself and the other hunter. His response was that he had carried it that way for 40 years. I replied with "Well you have carried it wrong for 40 years". You just never know what to expect from new clients.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

by **Kessler10** » 12 06, 2016 • [Post 30]

Indian Summer wrote:I don't care if William Tell shows up in my camp I'm telling him no shots over 60 yards. The way to enforce it even if you are 30 yards from your desperate hunter is to inform him of your wounding policy. Tell them that if you take a Hail Mary shot and draw one drop of blood you will be leaving your bow in camp for the rest of your hunt and we will still hike your ass off all day every day looking for that elk. If they are that desperate to fill a tag they sure don't want to end their hunt that way.
.

hey Joe, guess what.....you just made me Google William Tell

Kind of helps me bring your comment full circle.
Thought I would throw some humor in this thread.
Always count on Joe to open my eyes to some new and interesting info. this time its a history lesson. Love being the young guy

by **Gypsumreaper** » 12 06, 2016 • [Post 31]

Clients are hard to deal with sometimes, we do hear stories that come out of our drop camps of taking this shot or that shot. I always raise my concern on those shots as well, but those I really can't stop since I'm not there. As bow82 and elknut says you can preach to clients til ur blue in the face about ethics and rules. Things can always go wrong, I chased a bull for a client for 3.5 days off a 30 yard shot that was a wounding shot so even having ethics on distance is a gamble as well. We're chasing wild animals that can make their own decisions. Someone once told me as kind of a joke but it is somewhat a truth is the only unethical shots are the ones where animals aren't recovered. If you shoot at 850 yards wth ur rifle and drop it was it ethical? To me not really I'm not a long range hunter I prefer up close and personal.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

by **Swede** » 12 06, 2016 • [Post 32]

I did not respond to this thread for several days, because I felt so hypocritical saying anything after my last hunt. All we can do is try to make quality shots and follow them out until we have exhausted all of the reasonable possibilities. There are no guarantees when we shoot. Congratulation Josh to you and your hunter. Great shot on a very nice bull. We need to know our limitations and adhere to them. I don't feel comfortable in changing my maximum shot distance because it is my last day, but I know the temptation. I appreciate you folks explaining the situation and discussing it here.
I still remember going into a butcher shop and seeing a display shelf with broad-heads taken from animals hunters had harvested. I asked the butcher about bullets, and he said "Oh we take a lot more bullets out of animals than broad-heads." Never become complacent about wounding. Still it happens.
The buck I shot and the bull in the video probably met the same fate. Both will be eaten. The difference is who or what does the eating.

by **T.B.** » 12 06, 2016 • [Post 33]

Really enjoyed the bull raising havoc in the wallow. Thanks for sharing.......swede as always you bring clarity to the conversation , at least for me . (grin).....since my icon thing won't work

by **Tigger** » 12 08, 2016 • [Post 34]

I don't think anybody was criticizing Mr Reaper! At least I surely wasn't. Guides are not responsible for client ethics. They are only influencers. Some are better influencers (like Josh) and some are not, but at the end of the day, it is the person pulling the trigger that is responsible for the ethics of harvesting an animal.

Good conversation!

by **Gypsumreaper** » 12 08, 2016 • [Post 35]

Thanks tigger but in a way, I do take myself personally responsible for client ethics, IF I am with them. If I am not with them they are like any other DIY Hunter out there they make their own decisions. I try and push my clients to closer shots, we do have a client who can shoot 1200 yards with his rifle, have I seen him do it no and that's great hitting a plate but he won't shoot at an animal at that distance.
I have done a lot of research in my career, with bullet weights, trajectory, caliber and effective distance this way I know what is safe shooting and what is pushing limits.
Craig pushed the limits and I'm very thankful it worked out for us, but I would have hinted that bull the next few days with Craig if he had wounded it. Once ones hit that's ur bull there isn't a well we tried let's find another. And if Craig would have left to go home cause he was out of time me and my co owner would have spent the time on the mountain to try and take him down ourselves.
Biggest fear as a guide is 1. Client getting hurt and 2. Losing wounded animals.
Even if a client shoots a doe in the hoof and there's blood that's his doe, punch ur tag that's my rules.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk