Why does Wyoming require outfitters in wilderness?

[bald9eagle]

I'm scanning through Wyoming maps and regulations. I notice that there are still leftover licenses in unit 95. Now I don't know if this is a good unit or not or if this is the time to hunt it or not. What I know is that the best looking areas on a topo map are wilderness. Going back to the discussion about finding the right place to hunt and rookies going to a place like Wyoming...how is an Easterner supposed to do this?

Does Wyoming do this to discourage out of state hunters? Is this done to help outfitters? Is this a cost saving measure to do away with search and rescue?

I know that a DIY Wyoming hunt is accessible. When I look at maps and see NFS land full of roads I automatically believe that every other DIY Easterner will be packed in to these same areas. Is that an accurate statement?

[Swede]

I have not studied the regulation, but it is my understanding that only out of State hunters are required to have an outfitter in the wilderness. It is all about money and benefiting their outfitters.

[Lefty]

I had two friends from Wyoming. When they both moved to Utah for work; they became outfitters in A wilderness area ,.. so as non residents they could still hunt Wyoming wilderness,..
They both claimed the requirement was all about the money for the State.

[CurlyTail]

I believe it is an attempt to protect the resident hunters from the non-resident "hordes", and throw a bone to some of the resident outfitters. I would love that regulation if I was a DIY Wyoming resident - Elk are indeed a limited resource

[redtop]

It's an archaic law to protect the outfitters business. Outfitters are a notoriously possessive lot. They don't like any other hunters in their area non-resident or resident. I get along great with the outfitters in the area I live but others do not. I respect that they are trying to make a meager living and stay out of their core areas. The law is strictly about hunting. As a non-resident you can go backpacking or fishing in the same wilderness with no problems. Or you can hire an outfitter and have the dream elk hunt in a remote wilderness with miles of undisturbed elk.

All that said most of our Wilderness in the NW corner of the state is serious grizzly country these days and hunters are much more likely to have problems with these real bears than any other users. Too many of these bears know that a gun shot is the dinner bell for a gut pile, or your elk quarters, or YOU!

Don't be concerned that all the forest outside of the Wilderness areas is over run with non- resident hunters. One thing we still have here is room to get away from others. Get a few miles from a road and you'll most likely be alone. If not alone at worst you'll meet other hunters and probably have a good conversation.

[Indian Summer]

Redtop pretty much summed it up. Why does Wyoming require outfitters in wilderness? Because they can. That's something I love about Wyoming. They are as cool as Jonny Cash. They don't care about being politically correct. If you don't like it there's the door. lol The fact that you can do anything you want in there other than hunt makes it blatant. It's not like they are saying it's rugged country and you can get hurt or lost. It's about the outfitters period.

But it doesn't really matter. There's more non wilderness than there is designated wilderness.

[Swede]

I do not understand how the State enforces the law. How does the State regulate use of Federal land? I know they can enforce State criminal laws, including game laws, but land use has not been under their jurisdiction. I can think of a few cases where the F.S. and County cooperated in some trespass issues, but nothing like this.

[wawhitey]

I do not understand how the State enforces the law. How does the State regulate use of Federal land? I know they can enforce State criminal laws, including game laws, but land use has not been under their jurisdiction. I can think of a few cases where the F.S. and County cooperated in some trespass issues, but nothing like this.

States regulate hunting on federal land, thats just how it is. Otherwise, id just say to hell with buying a wa hunting license, and go hunt the colville national forest free of charge.

[Swede]

Wa, I assume that is the angle they are trying to push. The Federal Government has recognized the State owns the game on Federal land, even though the land was owned by the U.S. long before the States were recognized. Still Federal employees manage the land and habitat on Federal land. The State never has had control of who could and who could not use the National Forest before that I know of. There are cooperative agreements on things like road and area closures. Interesting.

[bald9eagle]

I have no issue with making elk tags scarce. If elk populations were similar to whitetail then maybe. I don't agree with forcing a non-resident into hiring an outfitter to access an area that is federally funded. The regulations for accessing federal lands should be uniform throughout the US.

If Wyoming wants to limit access and help outfitters I believe they should follow the method New Mexico uses. Limit NR tag numbers in the draw. Increase the odds for NR that go through an outfitter draw. In Colorado its about controlling herd numbers...in Wyoming its about controlling hunter numbers.

[Indian Summer]

To control hunter numbers is to control the herd. And to the letter of the book... they don't restrict access, just hunting privileges. Alaska does the same thing with brown bears, sheep and goats. I'm not a fan at all of the law. I can't believe it is still in existence. But It doesn't bother me that much because overall Wyoming provides some of the best NR elk hunting opportunities in the country.

Like I said before... I can hunt wilderness if I want and I don't. Likewise Wyoming residents can hunt wilderness and the majority of them see no reason to and don't. If the reason you want to hunt designated wilderness is to get away from other hunters then don't sweat it. You can do that anywhere. I can always tell when a guy has been hunting Colorado. He thinks there is no escaping other hunters and 4 wheelers.

[Swede]

How can anyone say they don't control access to hunters, when out of State hunters are forbidden going into the wilderness without paying extra? To require an outfitter means the extra cost will totally forbid access to some or many. Controlling access is their way of limiting hunting privileges.

[Indian Summer]

Simple Swede. They do not say that you can't access the area. You can go in there any time you want. You can hike, fish, camp, take photographs etc. You just can't hunt there.

[Swede]

Joe, Would you say that Wyo. did not control access if they made a law against nonresidents driving their own cars and personal trucks on I 80? They could rent a car, walk along the R/W, or ride their horse. Also why did the State exempt nonresident outfitters and guides? I have not studied this law, and these may seem like frivolous questions, but I think I know the answers. I will explain when I see Joe's answers.

[Indian Summer]

Again Swede... you are allowed to access the wilderness. So to answer the question: They are telling me I can use I-80. I can drive my own car too. I just can't use the left lane like the people who live in the state it passes through. So I can access it but with some limitations on my activities while there.

I am not aware that non res outfitters/guides are exempt.

[Wyo67]

As a resident, I agree this is a total outfitter funded and supported law. I personally don't agree with it, but it is still the law. It has been discussed at length multiple times on several hunting websites and redtop and Indian Summer have summarized it well. A couple things to keep in mind...

- You are not "forced" to hire an outfitter to hunt the wilderness. If you have a buddy or family who is a Wyoming resident they can be your "Resident Guide" at no charge. They do have to purchase a license for the same area as well and be with you at all times in the wilderness. I've done it for my dad and buddies from back home.
- The state is not restricting your access to the wilderness, only your ability to hunt in it. Other than migratory game birds and wolves, states have been given pretty much full jurisdiction over the wild game animals in their state. They can charge what the want for a license, administer a preference point system, and restrict your ability to hunt certain areas at certain times.

Wyoming is not the only state to require a guide. Alaska requires a guide as well when hunting grizzly, Dall sheep and mountain goat -- doesn't matter whether you're hunting state, federal or private. You gotta have one to hunt those species in Alaska. Why does everyone pick on Wyoming about their guide requirement, but not Alaska? LOL...

[Swede]

I have not checked out Wyoming's outfitter/guide license application, but in Oregon the license is for the whole State. You are required to tell the State which Forest or BLM District you are operating on, and the general part of the State. Oregon charges nonresidents more than residents, and it varies. It is the BLM or Forest Service that issues permits for specific areas, but they do not discriminate based on State of residence. Joe, certainly you know the routine.
The reason Wyoming is not going to discriminate/forbid against out of State outfitters is because of the U.S. Constitution Article IV, Section 2.
Due to that same provision, I believe any professional writer or photographer, wanting to hunt Wyoming's wilderness can help themselves. and beat any citation if they want to pursue the matter in court. They just have to claim they are doing their writing or taking commercial pictures. I have no interest in hunting Wyoming. Never have either. But if I did, to cover my buns I would write a letter to the local F.S. office and ask if a special use permit was needed to cover my camp, as I intended to write a magazine article or publish pictures in the --- magazine. Just my 2 cents worth.

[Swede]

Why does everyone pick on Wyoming about their guide requirement, but not Alaska? LOL...

Wyo. I don't know the answer to that question. The subject came up about Wyo., so that is what we are debating around the campfire here. Maybe someone will want to pick on Alaska next, but they don't have a lot of elk, so it will likely show up in the Doc's office. lol Anyway don't take it personal. Even if I disagree with you on this, I am happy to be your friend. Maybe you can accompany me on a wilderness hunt in Wyo. lol What happens if the State Police sees me walking to my tree stand and you are not holding my hand?

They are telling me I can use I-80. I can drive my own car too. I just can't use the left lane like the people who live in the state it passes through.

Unless you are saying the left lane is the wilderness, I totally disagree on your interpretation of the analogy. In the analogy the entire freeway is the wilderness. I can use the back-roads (places outside the wilderness) or ride a horse or hike. In this case the horseman/hiker is a non-hunter. I am a licensed hunter and not a horseman or butterfly collector. So, I can't go on I 80 without the State car or a State resident riding with me. Telling someone that don't understand their own analogy or parable is like saying they mispronounce their name.

[Wyo67]

Why does everyone pick on Wyoming about their guide requirement, but not Alaska? LOL...

Wyo. I don't know the answer to that question. The subject came up about Wyo., so that is what we are debating around the campfire here. Maybe someone will want to pick on Alaska next, but they don't have a lot of elk, so it will likely show up in the Doc's office. lol Anyway don't take it personal. Even if I disagree with you on this, I am happy to be your friend. Maybe you can accompany me on a wilderness hunt in Wyo. lol What happens if the State Police sees me walking to my tree stand and you are not holding my hand?

They are telling me I can use I-80. I can drive my own car too. I just can't use the left lane like the people who live in the state it passes through.

Unless you are saying the left lane is the wilderness, I totally disagree on your interpretation of the analogy. In the analogy the entire freeway is the wilderness. I can use the back-roads (places outside the wilderness) or ride a horse or hike. In this case the horseman/hiker is a non-hunter. I am a licensed hunter and not a horseman or butterfly collector. So, I can't go on I 80 without the State car or a State resident riding with me. Telling someone that don't understand their own analogy or parable is like saying they mispronounce their name.

No worries Swede... Guess I misrepresented myself. I'm not in favor of the wilderness rule as it written at all If I'm bringing family and friends in though, I'm going to follow the letter of the law. Just wanted the guys around here to know there's another option besides paying for an outfitter. Living in Cheyenne, there's a couple patches of wilderness in south/central Wyoming that we've hunted and is our plan "B" or "C". I'd be more than happy to take you there and pick your brain on stand hunting while we're there. But....... I know a much better spot that's national forest and isn't wilderness that produces elk for us year after year. Come for a visit!

[Swede]

Thanks Wyo67. I doubt I ever go to Wyoming. Something might bring on the urge, but at 68 years old, I am not going into a pack in wilderness hunt. I appreciate your offer. If I get that urge, I would certainly consider taking you up on the offer and we could pick each others brain. I think I would get the best of that deal.

[wawhitey]

Its a similar deal that alaska requires non residents to have a guide for brownies, sheep, and one other species, i want to say muskox but maybe its goats. Exemption if you have a direct family member there with you. It sucks, but its what it is. I would love to do an interior grizzly hunt, but ill be damned if im hiring a guide. So i guess im waiting with fingers crossed for grizz to get delisted in montana or wyoming. I wish this wasnt the case, but there are more important things to worry about and plenty of other hunts to try to find time for, so screw it. Maybe ill get to hunt grizz in the lower 48 someday, but i really doubt it.

[Indian Summer]

Swede you should go. At 68 you have something not everyone does. Time. If you pack in once you are in camp you can hunt on foot right out the door. It won't be like you have to kill yourself every day.

[Swede]

I agree Joe. The problem I have is in the pack out. The elk I killed was all I could handle this year. I still gut, skin, and quarter my critters whenever possible. I was so tired after working on the elk I became ill to my stomach. It was an uphill pack, but only about 1/3 mile. Of coarse with a guide or friend it is more doable. Thanks

[Indian Summer]

Wyo can you get any horses to make the pack in/out easier?

[CurlyTail]

In the name of fairness - I would like to call out Saskatchewan in addition to Wyoming and Alaska. My Dad has a cabin on a remote wilderness island in Saskatchewan. It has awesome Moose and Bear - but non-residents can only obtain permits through registered outfitters. And like Swede - I just won't do that. Too cheap, too proud, too independent. I have considered poaching - this is a truly lawless remote area - but have not succumbed to that temptation. I may never have the opportunity to do a DIY moose hunt. Disappointing.

[Wyo67]

Wyo can you get any horses to make the pack in/out easier?

Absolutely. We were in the wilderness area during the weekend of 10/24-25 trying to help my son fill his tag during rifle season. A group had an outfitter tent posted about 5 1/2 miles from the trailhead in the creek bed. They were packing it out using horses on that Sunday. The first 3 miles is on an ATV trail that we use. The last mile and half is a drop from about 8600' to the creek bottom around 7600'. There are couple other horse trails about 7 miles away on the opposite end of the wilderness.

[Indian Summer]

Wyo can you get any horses to make the pack in/out easier?

Absolutely. We were in the wilderness area during the weekend of 10/24-25 trying to help my son fill his tag during rifle season. A group had an outfitter tent posted about 5 1/2 miles from the trailhead in the creek bed. They were packing it out using horses on that Sunday. The first 3 miles is on an ATV trail that we use. The last mile and half is a drop from about 8600' to the creek bottom around 7600'. There are couple other horse trails about 7 miles away on the opposite end of the wilderness.

Have you ever met Swede or seen a picture of him?

[Wyo67]

Wyo can you get any horses to make the pack in/out easier?

Absolutely. We were in the wilderness area during the weekend of 10/24-25 trying to help my son fill his tag during rifle season. A group had an outfitter tent posted about 5 1/2 miles from the trailhead in the creek bed. They were packing it out using horses on that Sunday. The first 3 miles is on an ATV trail that we use. The last mile and half is a drop from about 8600' to the creek bottom around 7600'. There are couple other horse trails about 7 miles away on the opposite end of the wilderness.

Have you ever met Swede or seen a picture of him?

No I have not met him. Just the interactions here on the forum. I didn't even get to talk to the fellas on horseback this year. My buddy did though... Said the horses were a lot quieter than he thought they'd be.

[Indian Summer]

Have you ever met Swede or seen a picture of him?

No I have not met him. Just the interactions here on the forum. I didn't even get to talk to the fellas on horseback this year. My buddy did though... Said the horses were a lot quieter than he thought they'd be.

Perfect. So if I were to show up and say I was Swede you'd pack me in and take me hunting right?

[Swede]

Hey Summer: Don't be horning in on my invitation. I am thinking about a Wyo. hunt, and just slipped the suggestion of going to Mrs. Swede. I am not sure what it meant, but she just rolled her eyes. It can't be too bad as she is still cooking. lol

[WapitiTalk1]

Have you ever met Swede or seen a picture of him?

Yup, and he's not to be trifled with

mountain-man.jpg (78.37 KiB) Viewed 10544 times

[Wyo67]

Have you ever met Swede or seen a picture of him?

No I have not met him. Just the interactions here on the forum. I didn't even get to talk to the fellas on horseback this year. My buddy did though... Said the horses were a lot quieter than he thought they'd be.

Perfect. So if I were to show up and say I was Swede you'd pack me in and take me hunting right?

I'd take you hunting Joe... I don't have horses, so pack light.

[Swede]

RJ: My wife sure liked the picture of me in my younger years. As you know some people age gracefully and some don't. I just look older and more ornery.

[Indian Summer]

This is Kaitlyn before she changed her name to Phantom. You can see the similarities between this photo and her current profile pic.

[WapitiTalk1]

I wish I could pack a buck on one shoulder