Micro diameter arrows

[CurlyTail]

I am slowly working on a new archery set up for elk hunting.

I have been researching arrows lately. Have heard a lot of good testamonials for the Easton FMJ's. I am intrigued by the newer micro diameter arrows such as the Easton deep six FMJ, and wonder if any of you have tried them or have opinions if these micro diameter arrows are here to stay or another marketing strategy. It makes sense to me that the micro diameter arrows would be less influenced by the wind. I also tend to believe that penetration would be better. The question is are they strong enough with the narrow broadhead diameter, and are they overkill (is the penetration on the older FMJ's so good, that better penetration is a non-issue)? I do not have a bunch of old standard sized broadheads and nocks that would be obsolete with the change so that is good, and the expense does not deter me if the arrow is truly an improvement . Nothing about this elk hunting habit is cheap! I just want to optimize my chances of getting a complete pass through when my time comes.

[mandrroofing]

Check out victory arrows small diameter and were penetrating further than my fmj

[foxvalley]

Hey Curly Tail,
I'm guessing that the deep 6 FMJ are a narrower arrow the the standard FMJ? I am useing easton axis arrows now,and have been very pleased with there preformance,but was thinking about the FMJ.

[jmez]

This is my second year shooting the FMJ Injexions. Prior to that I shot regular FMJ's since they were released. I haven't seen any material difference between the regular and injexion models. Both are heavy, both hit hard.

I am not a fan of the Easton HIT system nor do I like the Deep Six inserts. The Deep Six is Easton's way of getting around an outsert. I don't want to have to base BH choice on an insert system. I also like to experiment with my setup so if I try some new arrows then I need two different sizes of BH's and FP's for the different arrows. I use the VAP Penetrator II outserts in my FMJ injexions. They aren't perfect but for me are the best option. You will bend a few but it usually doesn't hurt the arrow and I've only bent them missing a target.

I haven't seen any difference in wind resistance with the smaller shaft. In Western SD I get to shoot in the wind a lot, like pretty much every day. Wind has far more of an effect on the shooter than it does the arrow. Penetration is game I don't know. I can't remember the last time I didn't go pick an arrow up off the ground after I shot something. The FMJ's always pass through as have the injexions so far.

I don't think the difference in price is worth it for the injexion arrows. They don't offer any material benefit over a regular FMJ and then you also have the insert/deep six/outsert issue to deal with.

[Raghorn_Reaper]

Personally, I love my Injexions. I also love the Deep 6. but like jmez says, you are somewhat limited to the broadheads available. There is a really good selection out there though. the Injexions are going to be about 1 grain per inch lighter also. For me, my long range accuracy has improved. I do think it has a lot to do with the diameter and it having less surface area. The reduced diameter will allow it to penetrate deeper. Keep in mind though they may not work with your current quiver setup.

I shoot the Injexion with an exodus and i dont ever see myself going back to a larger diameter shaft.

[dtrkyman]

firenok makes an outsert for those shafts so you can use a standard head, I like the design of that arrow, I current shoot muddy one shafts with there ss insert/outsert, I prefer the lighter grains per inch shaft so i can get my weight up front!

[elkaholic]

I am shooting the VAPs for 2 yrs now and love them. I haven't found anything that will out penetrate them in the reading that I have seen. With the 250s my arrow weight is roughly 418 with 100 gr head. They fly great and the FOC % is awesome. An added benefit is that you are not restricted on broadheads.. just my 2 cents..

[CurlyTail]

I have an interest in the Victory VAP arrows for sure since they are lighter than the Easton deep six carbon injections or deep six injection FMJ's, and I am having trouble putting together an arrow under 450grains with a decent FOC with the heavier arrow shafts.

Elkaholic, I am interested in your experience with the VAP penetrator broadhead adapters (outserts). Do you use the aluminum, or the stainless steel adapter? Have you had any problems with the adapters coming out in your broadhead target, or with the adapters bending over time? If I could get over my concerns about the outserts, that arrow would be nearly ideal for me. I have read that Victory does not recommend shooting them at rag filled targets - must be a reason. Does anyone else share my concern with outserts in general?

Also - anyone have problems with fletching clearance issues with these ultra-micro diameter shafts. I would be interested in any fletching recommendations also for this type of arrow as I imagine it is harder to mount fletchings on these narrow shafts, and it would be challenging to put a helical fletching on such an arrow. I am a novice arrow builder for sure.

jmez - care to talk specifics about you concerns with the Easton HIT inserts in general, and the deep six HIT inserts specifically. I was not aware of issues. Alignment? Durability? Tolerances? Expense? Educate me please

foxvalley - the Easton deep six FMJ is an ultra-micro diameter g series shaft based on the deep six carbon injection arrow, while the Easton FMJ, sometimes calles the axis FMJ, is a larger X series shaft (still micro diameter by many standards) based on the axis arrow.

[Weatherby5]

does easton have a narrow fmj thats not deep six

[Raghorn_Reaper]

A narrow but not ultra thin shaft would be the easton axis fmj. The FMJ will be heavier but having the alloy in the shaft may make them bend easier than a pure carbon.

[ElkNut1]

I'm playing with the Victory VAP V1 at present & really like what I've seen so far, this may be the arrow I'm shooting this year in a 350 spine, so far so good! (grin)

ElkNut1

[elkaholic]

Jim,
My experiences have been good with these arrows. The penetration that I have seen and read about is more than any other arrow. I believe I am shooting the aluminum outserts at 52 grains. I have not had any heads come off while pulling them out of the target. I have had a few outserts bend but that is how these arrows are designed. The head bends instead of the arrow breaking. I would rather replace a two dollar piece then a whole arrow. As for fletching clearance I have not had an issue. I'm shooting Blazers on them. The V1 in a 300 spine has shot very well for me. I see that Camofire has been running a sale on the VAPs recently.

[CurlyTail]

Paul - what are you using for outserts?

[ElkNut1]

I'm using the stock aluminum ones, I believe they are 40-45 grains. I have tried the steel ones but not needed for us. The arrow is weighing in at 420 grains right now. So perfect!

ElkNut1

[CurlyTail]

I am watching Camofire closely this week. I believe I will need the 350 spine arrows. I believe I will take the plunge on the Victory VAP v1 arrows.

[CurlyTail]

Weatherby5 - the "standard" FMJ is an x-series arrow like the Axis, and uses a standard HIT insert (not deep six). These are skinny arrows in my book for sure. But even smaller in diameter is the deep six FMJ which has the deep six insert. This is based on the carbon injection arrows so sometimes referred to as the deep six injection FMJ. Easton on their web site calls the axis diameter FMJ the FMJ. The injection diameter FMJ is called the deep six FMJ. I have noticed many of the online archery shops are a little loose on what they call theses arrows so there seems to be some confusion.

[ElkNut1]

Jim, I apologize for sharing some misinformation. My inserts in the VAP V1 are the steel 90 grain ones, took time this morning to weigh some! (grin) Sorry!

ElkNut1

[CurlyTail]

I was thinking the stainless steel ones would be much stronger and give great FOC. Not surprised you are already on to those! I was reading on another forum and the guys were suggesting that bending the outserts (called a broadhead adapter by Victory) is not such a bad thing as they are easily replaceable, easy to detect a bent adapter by spinning the arrow, and protects the more expensive arrow itself from damage. I think I can live with an occasional bent adapter as long as they do not pull out and remain in the broadhead target. Thanks for checking.

I read somewhere that the Firenock outserts may be stronger, and that they also have a size to fit the Victory VAP. Anyone know about the Firenocks?

At what arrow velocity does a person start seeing greater pin gaps? At what weight arrow does velocity really start dropping? I will be shooting Hoyt Nitum(330fps) at 65lbs. and 29" draw length.

[jmez]

I've never been a big fan of the HIT inserts. Over time, the aluminum at the end of the arrow will start to mushroom if you don't use the BAR rings that Easton sells. Broadheads are hard on the ends of the arrows as well and you will split some even with the BAR in place if you hit something hard.

The Deep Six is just a smaller HIT. First problem is that it is a HIT. Second problem is that the threaded shaft of the broadhead is weaker than a normal broadhead. They use a finer thread pattern on these so the actual threads are stronger than a regular broadhead but the shaft is actually weaker. Have you ever heard of a "thread failure" on a BH? I've actually bent and broken the shafts on regular sized BH's so they make the part that doesn't fail stronger and the part that will fail weaker. They will also limit your BH choice based on what is made in the Deep Six. They take a special FP so are not interchangeable with anything else you have.

[Raghorn_Reaper]

The wall thickness of a deep 6 shaft like the injexion is like 30% thicker that your standard all carbon. Splintering or mushrooming should not really be an issue with the injexions. I have not encountered any, but i did with the Axis arrows. I think if the field points or broadheads are not machined straight where it meets the end of the shaft, it can occur. Or if someone reams out the end of the shaft too much and reduces the wall thickness. Also, most of the deep 6 broadheads are designed with solid shafts to account for the smaller diameter. The exodus is a head designed with a short solid shaft and i don't think that one will ever shear off or bend.

Like jmez says though, it is a point of weakness compared to a non recessed insert. Personally, i don't think it is enough to cause an arrow to be a point of failure when hitting an animal though. You neighbors brick house...probably, yes!

I think the other benefits to skinny arrows outweigh the weaknesses. Those being better penetration and downrange velocity. I can see why guys shy away from them though...limited broadhead selection and not quite as durable. Lot of money for them!

[Jamieastle]

I tried a dozen Victory VAP arrows with the stock aluminum outserts (I did not try the steel ones). I would bend an outsert almost every time I practiced shooting. I shoot a Hoyt Carbon Spyder at 70 Lbs., 30” draw. I just did not have confidence in them so I went back to standard FMJ’s. My current arrows are 521 grains.

[CurlyTail]

I cant decide if I should go with a heavier arrow like the deep six FMJ, but slower and less FOC, or a lighter, faster arrow, with great FOC like Victory VAP. I suspect I will end up trying both before it is all said and done.

[HurricaneHuge]

Curly, the Gold Tip Kinetics are a middle ground if you want it. Small diameter, all carbon shaft, with an outsert that you can add weight to the back of to increase your FOC. Just another option to wreck your brain.