Diaphragm Fit / Bending

[Charina]

Do you manufacturers sprinkle some of your diaphragms with bitter-gag-powder or something? I have a dirty habit of ripping open the package and immediately popping the reed in my mouth to give it a try. Most are ok, but man . . . some of them taste AWFUL!!! I really need to get in the habit of washing them first.

I’ve bought a whole lot more diaphragms this year that I have ever before. Really trying to step up the vocal game for this fall. I’ve always struggled to get good consistent sounds with diaphragms that I have bought in the past, and until I picked up a mellow yellow, I had no idea that fit was the reason I struggled so badly. I thought I just sucked! Fit matters! It matters a LOT for those like me that apparently have an oddball shaped pallet. If you are struggling, try different manufacturers and shapes until you find one that works for you.

I’ve tried wide, narrow, domed and not, all the various permutations, and have a heck of a time getting a good fit with anything other than bugling bull mellow yellow (and the similar shaped ones from bugling bull), and even then, it isn’t great. I simply can’t use the Allstar even as similar as it is to mellow yellow shape. The problem is if I push them forward until the frame meets my teeth so I can get consistent placement, I can’t get a seal – no matter how much I chew and shape the tape. I can’t get a seal until I push them WAY back, almost all the way to gag-land. Anywhere in between, I can get a reasonable seal *sometimes*, but consistency is difficult at best, and the diaphragm may shift during calling.

Being a tinkerer and never being satisfied with the status quo, I’m wondering if anyone has any advice on getting standard sized flat diaphragms to fit better. I see a couple general comments in years past on here about bending frames. Does anyone have specific advice on how to bend the frame to fit a wide mouth, narrow-high-dome-center pallet, without radically changing or ruining the sound? Troy, I see some posts you made a few years back about showing someone how to bend the frame, but there are no details of how you bent them. Any input on bending them?

Has anyone ever tried using the material from a boil-n-bite mouth guard or something like that to make a diaphragm fitting device? Something that would flatten out the pallet top, and ensure the reed was in the exact same spot every time you put it in? Something akin to a orthodontic retainer, but filled in at the pallet and the reed sits on the plastic.

Anyone else have this frustrating issue trying to get diaphragms to fit?

[Wapiti]

The latex manufactures sprinkle in a powder to help the thousands of pieces of latex from sticking together. We have no say in there process though. I would rinse them and give them a wipe if it bothers you that much. I build 300-400 reeds per day and I test every 20-30th one so I know how you feel with the taste !! I have gotten so used to them now that I don't even notice any more.

Also you may be tasting the coloring of the tape as different colors have different dyes !!Again noting we can do about that. Sorry

As for bending the frame...........NO NO NO !!! We spend hours building prototype reeds with the perfect stretch for you guys !! I mean on one pattern we can have 30-40 hours fine tuning the stretch to get the perfect sounds. Now as soon as you tweak and bend that frame even a little that stretch is GONE !!

As long as the frame portion fits between your upper teeth that is all you need to worry about. From there it's just a matter of finding a reed that has latex you like that gives you the sounds you are looking for. Each person should be able to find one reed that works for them and that is your magic reed so stick with that one reed and buy more for spares !! I see to many guys packing 10 different reeds and not being very good on any of them !

That is why manufactures have so many options for you guys......So you can test them and find the ONE for you ! It's not so you can sound like 10 different bulls. Each person has to go through the process of elimination. A rough idea on frame size. If your thumb print fits in your upper pallet between your teeth with a small amount of room (1/4) inch on each side you are a regular frame. If you can move more than that you are probably a smaller frame. The biggest frame you can fit will give you the best sounds as the latex widths are wider and sound better.

Hope that helps.

Trav

[BrentLaBere]

Don't worry about what others say about the reed fitting in your mouth. I can not make consistent sounds or have a seal with the reed forward in my mouth. Nobody is wrong, its simply a guide line and you need to find what works for you. Using the mellow yellow, and having it fit properly, I would say a lot of the other bugling bull game calls are the same size and fit (palate plate design wise). What it might come down to is how you are causing air pressure over the reed. I picked up a tip from the elk nut forums about using more of your mouth for cow sounds and using more of your gut or solar plexus for bull sounds. Use less tongue pressure over all and you might find the reed to be more comfortable in your mouth. Just a few ideas to try

[ElkNut1]

Yes, placement forward for some is too far forward & pushed back for some is too far back, find your sweet spot! I like the front of the latex to be right at the ridge where it shelf's before it gets up into the pallet. This is considered forward, it isn't touching the inside of top front teeth it's behind them, it's a general starting point!

Most importantly it can take many weeks of practice 10 to 15 minutes a day before you get decent at using a mouth reed. Many feel this should happen in two or three short 30 minute sessions, it generally doesn't happen like that. Plan 4 weeks of serious dedication before you get real good control of your reed. If using palate plate reeds & you should as they are easiest to use that require no bending or trimming then stay with single reeds as they will function quickest for all users!

ElkNut1

[Gselkhunter]

I been teaching people to call for a long time now and the term "fit" to me means more how the call sits in your mouth for angle and seal. The problem I see most is seal. Air leaking around the call tape causes a lot of issues. I tell people to chew the tape soft so it seals.
Step one chew tape and put call in mouth then blow. If you hear or feel air leaking chew the tape more.
Step two say sssshhhhhhowwww. The word show will put your tongue in the right place to make sound. Once you get sound learn to hold a pitch. Then using tongue pressure and air learn to raise and lower pitch.
Your off and running.

[Charina]

As for bending the frame...........NO NO NO !!! We spend hours building prototype reeds with the perfect stretch for you guys !! I mean on one pattern we can have 30-40 hours fine tuning the stretch to get the perfect sounds. Now as soon as you tweak and bend that frame even a little that stretch is GONE !!

I can fully appreciate that Travis, I do understand it. But . . . what is of more use to me? A perfect recipe I can't use? Or altered 'perfection' that may be different than intended, but at least is functional. Right now my couple black widows and pink ladies are just pretty adornments in the collection. I played with both and the Reaper this morning driving in to work, and got some good sounds at times, but as soon as I pull it out to clear saliva, I can't get it to seal just the same way. I'm a very detail oriented and self-aware person. Very much so. I don't have a problem putting the diaphragm in the exact same spot time after time. But in the only locations I can get appropriate fit (despite all sorts of chewing the tape, shaping it, etc), I can't get consistent seal, and It wants to move. I've been trying and trying with them for several weeks now. 5 times a day. It's just not happening. I think they are very good quality reeds, and the times I can get them just right, they do produce good sounds, but it is beyond a struggle to get them to seal and get a consistent sound out of them. My primary suspicion is fit, since I can get pretty good repeatability out of the mellow yellow, even though that one wants to avoid sealing and wander as well.

What it might come down to is how you are causing air pressure over the reed. I picked up a tip from the elk nut forums about using more of your mouth for cow sounds and using more of your gut or solar plexus for bull sounds. Use less tongue pressure over all and you might find the reed to be more comfortable in your mouth. Just a few ideas to try

Thanks for the thoughts Brent. I'll try putting it into practice on the drive home today.

Yes, placement forward for some is too far forward & pushed back for some is too far back, find your sweet spot! I like the front of the latex to be right at the ridge where it shelf's before it gets up into the pallet. This is considered forward, it isn't touching the inside of top front teeth it's behind them, it's a general starting point!

Noted. I've watched your youtube vid on using mouth diaphragms several times, along with Rocky's good instructions, and a whole bunch more. I think the reason I have the most success with mellow yellow is the low dome's assistance in placement. The aluminum dome rests just behind that "shelf", making consistent placement easier, and helping it stay in place. Seal with the tape is still problematic at times, despite chewing, pressing it in place, etc, but the dome helps hold the diaphragm at an angle and get the tape up high into the pallet to give it a chance to seal. With any higher dome, like primos sonic domes, the Reaper, Allstar, etc, there just is nowhere it fits consistently and securely. Way back it fits, but it wanders and my sounds are inconsistent. Forward, and it rolls laterally.

Most importantly it can take many weeks of practice 10 to 15 minutes a day before you get decent at using a mouth reed. Many feel this should happen in two or three short 30 minute sessions, it generally doesn't happen like that. Plan 4 weeks of serious dedication before you get real good control of your reed. If using palate plate reeds & you should as they are easiest to use that require no bending or trimming then stay with single reeds as they will function quickest for all users!

I first picked up reeds more than 20 years ago. Granted, I didn't touch them much after that first couple years as the kids came, but I've played with them off and on unsuccessfully for the last couple years. It was February this year that I started getting serious, and most days I work at it at least the 20 min on the drive home. Other days like today, it's the drive in, and will be on the drive home as well, so 40+ min. I'm not thinking I should be a pro, but man, I thought I should be getting a bit of consistency by now.

[Charina]

I been teaching people to call for a long time now and the term "fit" to me means more how the call sits in your mouth for angle and seal. The problem I see most is seal. Air leaking around the call tape causes a lot of issues. I tell people to chew the tape soft so it seals.
Step one chew tape and put call in mouth then blow. If you hear or feel air leaking chew the tape more.
Step two say sssshhhhhhowwww. The word show will put your tongue in the right place to make sound. Once you get sound learn to hold a pitch. Then using tongue pressure and air learn to raise and lower pitch.
Your off and running.

Thanks for the post Gregg. I think I'm off an running, but it sure seems like I'm tripping and falling a whole lot.


I think I've read all of the significant threads on this forum regarding diaphragm use. I'm rereading some of them again. This one: Diaphragm Calls - Fitting and Positioning from 2012 caused me to look in the phone selfie camera and have a look see after rereading how Vanish had done that. Perhaps only part of my problem is fit. I seem to have a large longitudinal fissure down the middle of my tongue that runs right under the latex. So, you experts that are exposed to many new callers, have you run into that before? Is it something you can confirm does or does not impede latex reed use?

[Wapiti]

Charina,

I'm thinking it's how you are applying air ! Are you trying to blow air like whistling ? If you are then that could be your problem area.

The way you deliver the air is from deep in your diaphragm and more of an exhale like a snake or a cat would hiss. Please try the hiss technique and let us know how it worked for you.

As far as a seal you will never get a complete seal and it's not required anyways. The air is actually delivered across the bottom of the latex as you hiss and that starts the reed vibration which makes the sound. Yes the reed can move around if you drop your tongue down. But you should not be dropping your tongue that much unless you are taking the reed out.

Your wet saliva mouth is also causing an issue. You should try to learn to swallow the spit with the reed in your upper pallet as you hold your reed with your tongue or slide the reed and hold it with your lips. Then swallow. Once you get used to it you can go for hours and never need to take the reed out.

I hope these few more tips help but it you could send in a clip of your sound we can help more. We need to hear what you are doing though.

We also have a small reed with a short dome called The Phantom and its the same size as the Yellow reed you like. Please give me a Phone call Wednesday and I'll send you a free one ! 780-876-2170

Trav

[WapitiTalk1]

The Phantom... now that sounds like a great reed! Charina, have you tried the WRO calls? They're top notch (I've tried them) and Travis is some kind of elk crazy, meticulous cat that will work with somebody until he figures out which diaphragm is best for them. Lasty, do you have somebody to practice with? I work with a handfull of local folks every year in my neck of the woods and help them with the basics of using elk calls. It's not unusual for somebody to struggle with mouth reeds until it finally clicks. It seems to help to sit across from somebody and exchange sounds back and forth. There's an elk hunter that posted a tip earlier (GSElkhunter) that has helped me a ton with my elk sounds over the past handfull of years... he's a former top level competition caller and an elk slayer for many years. He challenges me off and on to reproduce some of the sounds he sends me (I'm waiting for the next elk sound recording he sends my way to try and reproduce). Patience, patience, patience. I've been calling/hunting elk for over 30 years and it's just been in the last five years that 1. I've discovered the Elknut philosophy (Paul Medel) of "elk do have a language and when they say something, it's not just chatter and they are telling you something or asking for something" which was a huge turning point in my elk career, and 2. how to improve my calling so it's more realistic (thanks GSElkhunter). Hang in there, you certainly don't sound like somebody who's gonna give up till you master whatever endeavor you're set your mind to. RJ

[Lark Bunting]

I have been trying to get to a new level this year myself. Last year I practiced a LOT and became really confident in my cow calling, chirps, calf sounds but I absolutely SUCK at bugling. I tried numerous calls and finally decided I was done experimenting. I LOVE the Bugling Bull calls, and the Mellow Yellow is my absolute favorite all around call. Primos Ivory is a close second but I can't get the volume with the Primos compared to the Mello Yellow. Palate plates fit my mouth and that is what I've determined is the most important part for me. I don't care if the palate plate is like training wheels.

I am back to basics with the bugling and struggling thorough the basic three note bugle. I am doing something weird in the truck and it seems to be helping...hum along with a reed in my mouth to music, using the reed to make the sounds.

Good advice above on hissing through the call.

Find something that fits, buy a few and practice.

[Elkduds]

Encouragement: I have a cleft palate, meaning the roof of my mouth has a peak like a house roof. I had years of struggle w mouth reeds. Last summer I got w GSelkhunter, had domed and flat reeds w me of various sizes. He helped me w reed placement, some other advice as noted above, and got me to make accurate sounds softly b4 trying for more volume. He convinced me to play the reed just behind the tip of my tongue w mild air pressure rather than blowing like hell on it. Then I practiced 30 min/day for 2 months. Now I can make passable bugles and a range of cow/calf sounds w undomed reeds. He also showed me that reeds can be slightly angled to get a good air seal behind the teeth. Thanks again Gregg

[Charina]

I'm thinking it's how you are applying air ! Are you trying to blow air like whistling ? If you are then that could be your problem area.

I don't think so. Tip of tongue is put on back of lower teeth at/near the gumline. It isn't always pressed there, but it goes to that spot. Center of tongue arched, attempting to contact tape and laytex with lateral center and longitudinal center of tongue, approximately the center of the laytex. Using Rocky's and Corey's instructions, I started practicing with a "hisssss", like a snake (reptiles are another interest, if you couldn't tell from the avatar). I've played around with ssssshhhhhhowwwww like Greg mentions above. Not applying much air pressure, letting the tongue do most of the control. I don't have an issue with getting the appropriate vibration to produce the tones, its the consistency that has eluded me. Not the consistency that I can't pick up the mellow yellow and produce a dozen very similar cow calls in a session. Or do the same, with the same cow calls the next day. Rather, an inconsistency that the third day, or the second practice of any particular day, I can't get much but a elk with a cold and crackling honk.

This morning for example, on the drive in I got some pretty decent stuff out of a pretty pink lady, until the latter end of the commute. Then it went to crap, and I really don't know why. There just isn't a rhyme or reason I have identified. Sometimes I have a heck of a time initially, and then it all of the sudden works, sometimes the opposite, sometimes is all sounds like total newb. Position is the same (as best as I can get it determine anyway - likes to shift). Happens at beginning or end, so there is no correlation with cold, dry, or stiff tape. No difference identified in dry mouth vs normal slobbering fool any time I have an objecting in my mouth. Not sure what the difference is.

Here is a short clip from this am, failing to get a seal (first second or two) when trying to hold a steady tone, and then some mews that crack and break despite doing exactly what provided me with decent smooth mews just a few minutes earlier. http://soundcloud.com/charinabottae/hiss-and-break I know the seal broke on me at the beginning of that, and I got it back in position, but I really have no idea, other than position, or my tongue fissure was causing the note break. As far as I could tell, air pressure, delivery, and position were all the same. There is another manufacturer on here whose calls consistently cracked and honked on me like none other I have tried. Not wanting to call anyone's product out, as I'm sure its me, but I wonder if when I call you later, knowing that other product might give some additional insight into why I get the honk/crackle/break.

[Charina]

have you tried the WRO calls? They're top notch (I've tried them) and Travis is some kind of elk crazy, meticulous cat that will work with somebody until he figures out which diaphragm is best for them. Lasty, do you have somebody to practice with?

Yeah, WROs are primarily what I'm trying to conquer, feeling I can get decent results with bugling bulls. Tried many others, but don't get anywhere near the success as first: bugling bulls (think its just fit and placement), then secondly: WRO. It's just that darn consistency! Heck, I was hesitant to post the audio above. Not sure I want to show a pro in person how I can honk and crackle randomly out of the blue! No, no one to practice with. Just my family to complain about it, so I do it solo in the car.

I am doing something weird in the truck and it seems to be helping...hum along with a reed in my mouth to music, using the reed to make the sounds.

Nice! I got really tired of practicing on-demand pitch control with row-row-row your boat, and marry had a little lamb, so quit doing the a'ccapella reed-whining. I should try some maroon 5 whine-alongs instead. That guy sings like he's castrated, so should match the desired tones well.

Encouragement: I have a cleft palate, meaning the roof of my mouth has a peak like a house roof.

I can imagine that created quite some challenges, with what I seem to struggle with despite no cleft palate. Nice encouragement. Love examples of people that overcome something harder than what I face (yeah, serious first world problem here I'm dealing with), as it is inspiring. Glad you found success!

[BrentLaBere]

I listened to your clip really quick. First off, I DO NOT have the calling abilities of some of these guys giving you pointers but here is my .02 on it.
Your tongue is a muscle and needs to be trained accordingly. More practice (training) will allow you more control over the pitch of the call itself. To me its sounding like you are clucking, or goose calling at the end of each. You might be letting off the call too sharp and creating that noise, break.
More tongue pressure in the begging will give you the higher EEE or KNEE you are looking for. More pressure should be from flexing your tongue more. Ending, and slowly dropping off with an Ahh - OOO will clean up the last part.
And as far as the other calls go, the tighter and thicker the latex the more control they will take. Or even air and tongue pressure. They are certainly less forgiving. But with more practice you can achieve the sounds you are looking for.

This is an example of my own calling (ignore the bugling) - hearing the "cluck" last year to this year cleaning it up a bit. I believe they are the calls you are referring to. And it came down to me having more control. Still a work in progress.

Again.....just my .02

[Charina]

Well, I was told before that I had pretty good tongue control and muscle (but we shall not go further on that topic), so this revelation from you Brent that I just plain suck in that department is really a crushing blow. Nawh, not really . . . I already knew I sucked. Esp on the top end of bugles. I'm presuming Entry 231 is last year? I think I hear a pretty significant difference in quality. But man, those bugles in that file just about nocked me out of my chair with the ear buds in and the sound cranked to listen closely! I hope I can get to your 2015 level by next year. That would be cool.

[BrentLaBere]

Well, I was told before that I had pretty good tongue control and muscle (but we shall not go further on that topic), so this revelation from you Brent that I just plain suck in that department is really a crushing blow. Nawh, not really . . . I already knew I sucked. Esp on the top end of bugles. I'm presuming Entry 231 is last year? I think I hear a pretty significant difference in quality. But man, those bugles in that file just about nocked me out of my chair with the ear buds in and the sound cranked to listen closely! I hope I can get to your 2015 level by next year. That would be cool.

Whoa, Maybe I need to take a step back. I was simply trying to give some pointers that might help. I thought I could relate to your situation and was just offering advice on how I overcame some of them. I am sorry if I came on to strong or implied that you "suck". That's just not the case. Its not easy posting up sounds your unsure about, I know that from doing it over the last couple years. I used to struggle with the Primos terminator bugle......seriously, sounded like an elephant more than an elk.
Posting up sounds on this site and getting feed back is the only reason my calling has improved.

[Charina]

Sorry Brent, I was trying to be light hearted, but apparently it didn't come across right. No offense was taken, and I didn't intend to give any. My bad! I have appreciated your input!!

[msd1228]

Tip of tongue is put on back of lower teeth at/near the gumline. It isn't always pressed there, but it goes to that spot.

Try anchoring your tongue below the back of your teeth on the boney portion below your gumline. I listened to your clip and, no surprise (since you already told us lol), you aren't getting a seal. Having your tongue anchored so high on the back of your teeth doesn't allow you to properly cup the sides of your tongue around the edges of the tape. Sides of tongue not properly cupped around the outside edges of the tape = a poor seal, every time. You want to be able to cup the edges of your tongue (or dish out your tongue, if that makes more sense) so that the outside edges of your tongue are pressing into, or just inside, your molars. Doing this will tightly secure the tape against the roof of the mouth and no air loss will occur. Lowering your anchor point will also allow you to flex the ball of your tongue into the reed better, thus allowing you to hit a higher pitch - your cow calls are starting at too low of a pitch. I'd also suggest not pushing the call so far forward so as to have the frame touching your teeth. That particular portion of your mouth just isn't flat enough to allow a proper seal0 - this positioning, combined with a high tongue anchor, will never produce a proper seal. Although everybody has a preference as to where to call sits, like Paul mentioned above, most people will get their best seal when the frame sits back a bit further, i.e. the leading edge of the frame would be in line with either the canine teeth, or even the first molar for some. This will seat the call just behind the sloped portion of the palate and allow a proper seal. This is particularly important with WRO calls because the tape is shorter (from leading edge of the call to the back) than pretty much any other brand. I know you mentioned that's not your preferred placement, but I think you'll find that learning to get used to it will be of primary importance in curing the issues you are having. Make sure you give things a good week or so of practice before you decide a new placement or technique isn't going to work or be comfortable - its not likely that large scale changes like these will work on day 1.

[Charina]

Make sure you give things a good week or so of practice before you decide a new placement or technique isn't going to work

Well, its almost been a month after speaking with Travis on the phone and going through some instructions on trying different placement. I haven't practiced it everyday, but I've given it a lot of chances and opportunities. Not much change. The fit of standard frame diaphragms just won't work no matter where I put them. Not only is fit a problem, but there is the crack in the center of my tongue I mentioned above that I think is part of the issue as well. I asked the dentist, who indicated it is well deeper than average, and I could have it sewn shut, but since it isn't a medical necessity, such a drastic move doesn't fit in the elk hunting budget. Even when I get the diaphragm in place as described in this thread, and as Travis walked me through, they 'break' in notes when descending through the mew's pitches. Not a big deal with a bugle, but it makes for a less than optimal mew.

So, I'm still at the point where the bugling bulls (and the related ones made on the same frame - Chappell) are the only ones that fit/work. Doesn't matter so much if its mellow yellow, or raging bull, I can make them all work well with that size and small dome. The taller dome of primos sonic domes, and even the allstar don't fit well enough to get consistency. Still haven't ordered a Phantom to give that a try. I think the narrower frame also allows me to use a portion of my tongue that doesn't have the centerline fissure.

Fit is critical, at lest for some of us. It seems that for others, a wider range of frames/domes will work ok.