A quick thought on shot placement

[Trumkin the Dwarf]

Hey fellas, every season I see a few stories of guys who lose elk, or double lung an elk and find it still alive an hour or so later. And these stories always gets me to thinking.

Now, I'm not the elk killing machine that Paul is, but I've killed my fair share, and seen a lot of other dead elk. Here is my thought for the day, take it or leave it as you choose.

Bullets and blades that hit LOW in the chest cavity, usually kill an elk really quickly, as in, "30 seconds till death" quickly. As such, I aim low and tight to the shoulder with my bow (a fellow needs to study up on anatomy first, and rifles are different due to the shock factor). I would rather risk a broad head running into solid bone, because I know an elk hit there has a good chance of survival. I don't like the thought of my elk lying dead somewhere because I hit him high and/or too far back.

Further regarding this way of aiming, I tend to shoot high under pressure, and I think most others are the same way. In other words I don't feel that my margin of error has decreased.

So to summarize, Low and tight. That's my motto. Your opinion may vary greatly, but short blood trails to you all!

[Heartwood]

I absolutely agree. This has been a topic of discussion in our camp for the past few years. Chuck Adams wrote an article on this very subject also. I think that some shooters when under pressure to send an arrow quickly (which we know is somtimes the case in elk hunting situations) tend to aim at the midpoint of the elk instead of in the lower third of the chest height. I still struggle with this and am still trying to find a way to program my mind to make the correct aim point automatic under pressure. Bottom line, an arrow that hits much above half way is above the lungs. When i examined the lungs of the bull i harvested this year, i found punctures only 2 inches from the tops of the upper lobes. The point of impact on the chest cavity was about half way up the overall chest height. This particular animal expired quickly in only 30 yards but an arrow a little higher could have been bad news. I am going to practice shooting at an elk target with a dot in the correct spot some of the time as well as some visualization of aiming in the lower third. Any other ideas on how to train this archers mind for proper aimpoint would be welcome. Always looking for ways to be a more deadly archer.

[Huntrgathr]

This has been debated probably since guys first began slinging arrows (or bullets) at animals. Assuming you're talking about arrows, try to think of all the cons of that placement - not actually hitting there, but trying to hit that spot. I can tell you since my hunt last year I have reevaluated aiming for center heart. If you could walk up to the bull and stab him, that would be the spot to do it. If you have to send a projectile at a target that may move, through 150 feet of swirling air, tree branches, etc. I think it's safer to hedge your bets with a shot a little further from the bone...

Angle and distance is a big factor too. WAY more potential for bone interference with a heart shot = less chance of pass through. I use to hold tight to the < for all broadside shots. Now I shoot for heart on a broadside animals inside of 40 yds. Any further and I'll take the larger target up the elbow. Look at the vertical target size at the < versus up the elbow...

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[Drawnandpinned]

I'll agree on this one still waiting on a bow elk having only killed a calf but that's where I shoot for the whitetail does I shot a week ago went about a hundred and twenty yards I clipped one lung but I also think if it has just taken a breath in it will go farther cause it has more oxygen in the blood and if you think about it if they just released a breath they will suck blood into there lung cavity and expire more quickly

[Drawnandpinned]

Sorry only shot one not 2 on my comment above

[Trumkin the Dwarf]

I'm afraid I have given a false impression.

The black dot below is my aiming point, versus the traditional "rifle" aiming point shown in white.

[ElkNut1]

I like shooting for top of heart when broadside, it gives me a bit of human error to overcome, after that all depends on angle of the elk, there's a wide variety of shot placement spots as position changes.

ElkNut1

[Wapitibob]

Keep it in the btm 1/3 and in front of the crease, you'll watch them fall. Center of lungs.
Quartering away slightly, aim in front of the off side leg. Behind it will be liver and back of lungs.

[ishy]

Im more of a white spot guy. Your black dot is touching yellow...that doesn't leave any margin for any of the jumping string, misjudged yardage, ..the list goes on and on.

[Gypsumreaper]

I try and aim just a little below the pocket < that has always been my spot, this is how I see it. I want a good blood trail with minimal tracking if at all possible. I have seen in videos of guys shooting I have never seen and elk or deer jump backwards. Yes there could be circumstances but if you hit forward it's gonna be more human error than animal. So I've seen animals jump forward, drop down and turn away. When they jump you have a good 6 inches behind that spot to be safe in the lungs. If they drop you have a few inches before you get I to scapula and still get lungs and if they turn ur most likely gonna still get lungs and come out the chest (unless they turn really hard where I've seen guys miss completely). But this year with my buck it was a 40 yards shot he was sneaking through the trees on alert of me (I had bumped him twice and finally got to a spot where he was parralel to me and was gonna come into a 3 foot opening). He was walking through and I aimed for the pocket he didn't quite jump but my shot was a little back. I couldn't see my arrow hit but I heard a crack (thought I hit a tree) the deer trotted off, my brother seen him bound twice then back to a trot and head downhill. We went to find my arrow (I shoot dirt nap gear broadheads, full warranty so I Atleast wanted my broadhead to send it in if it was damaged) I found my arrow not in a tree but soft dirt and had blood and green slime on it so I backed out for the night. I found the buck the next am piled up 60 yards downhill. When I gutted him I had hit one lung somehow my arrow turned inside and came out the gut but the buck didn't go 60 yards on one lung and was piled up, not like he died in his bed but fell dead. So although one lung doesn't always have a quick kill it can kill very quickly. As said before I do believe if they have a full breathe they can go further. But I've seen elk getting shot mid bugle, you can almost hear their lungs collapse as the air rapidly escapes. Shot placement is a huge deal but I have also seen circumstances that completely blew my mind on shots and how quickly or how slowly the animal died. We had 3 bucks down this year and my shot as well as a buddies completely blew my mind on shot placement vs. time of death. My brothers follow up shot on his spined buck took 30 seconds to expire with an arrow through the back and out the chest no heart just one lung.

[jensenrw.2000]

This is a really good post on bowsite from the author BB that I just saw last month. This article really made me rethink shot placement. Subsequently we killed 3 bulls in our camp in 2014 with this placement, "BB's triangle", average distance traveled after shot 25 yards, average time to death 10 seconds.

http://forums.bowsite.com/TF/bgforums/t ... 09&forum=5

Note: scroll down till you hit the pictures

[Huntrgathr]

I aim for top of the heart and an inch or two back from the leg now. If you aim for that black dot and misjudge the yardage by as little as 2yds you're into heavy bone. Will the animal live ? Probably. But I'll take a high lung or liver shot over a shoulder hit any day of the week. Here's the bull I tried to heart shoot at 50yds last year. Actual yardage was 52... Hit him about 2" low- right in the elbow. Had to finish him with a second hail Mary shot at over 90...

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Here's my bull from this year. One might consider this shot "high and back" - definitely outside the < . My ideal placement would have been about 1.5" further forward but I had a small tree in the way. Bull died in about 200 yds (very steep downhill). This did not produce a good blood trail for some reason but if they die inside 200 who cares ?!

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Do lung-shot bulls travel further than heart-shot bulls ? Sure. Would I rather hit a bull in the heart every time ? Sure. But IMHO it's a riskier shot than taking center lungs. Who cares if they die in 25 yds or 200 yds ?! Double-lunged bulls will die every time. Your margin for error is much greater holding center lung than it is with the Coveted < shot...

[twinkieman]

This thread should remain right at the top, right under the meatpole. Great thoughts from everyone.

[Trumkin the Dwarf]

Glad to see this has caused a lot of conversation. I read BB's thread (which was linked here) and considered it to be excellent.

Per Huntgathr's thoughts, I don't particularly favor shooting 50-60 yards or more on animals with a bow, so hadn't really considered the effects of long distance on missed animal. As for 200 yard blood(less) trails, I want them dead in 30 yards with a red carpet to their final resting place. Call it a need for overkill, call it paranoia, but I want the elk dead in sight!

Again, it seems the vast majority of animals that are missed, or lost due to poor blood trails, come from shots that are too high, and too far back. This seems to indicate a tendency among archers to put their pins far higher on the animal than they realize (or a misunderstanding of anatomy). Some of you may not buy into what I'm saying, but at the very least check out the link as it explains my shot placement thoughts far better than I can.

EDIT: I do think that my black dot could be an inch or three higher with no adverse effects. Personally, I aim that low to compensate for my own habit of always hitting a couple inches higher than I aim with my longbow. Hope that clears up a little more confusion.

[Huntrgathr]

Glad to see this has caused a lot of conversation. I read BB's thread (which was linked here) and considered it to be excellent.

Per Huntgathr's thoughts, I don't particularly favor shooting 50-60 yards or more on animals with a bow, so hadn't really considered the effects of long distance on missed animal. As for 200 yard blood(less) trails, I want them dead in 30 yards with a red carpet to their final resting place. Call it a need for overkill, call it paranoia, but I want the elk dead in sight!

Again, it seems the vast majority of animals that are missed, or lost due to poor blood trails, come from shots that are too high, and too far back. This seems to indicate a tendency among archers to put their pins far higher on the animal than they realize (or a misunderstanding of anatomy). Some of you may not buy into what I'm saying, but at the very least check out the link as it explains my shot placement thoughts far better than I can.

EDIT: I do think that my black dot could be an inch or three higher with no adverse effects. Personally, I aim that low to compensate for my own habit of always hitting a couple inches higher than I aim with my longbow. Hope that clears up a little more confusion.

Trumkin- If you're shooting trad gear you have different considerations. Animals are not lost due to poor blood trails. They're lost due to poor shots and/or poor tracking skills. This is not directed at anyone in particilar, but if you can't track a hit elk 200 yds without blood you need to spend some time tracking before shooting at any elk...

The elk I shot this year ( 2nd pic) did bleed profusely but it all got trapped under the hide. Fat, membrane, or whatever filled the puncture and kept the blood from escaping. Not really a big deal. Blood is only one piece of the puzzle...

With a rifle or smokepole, I'm not getting anywhere near the heart. Too much meat loss. But, to each his own. Like I said, this debate's been going on for a Loooooong time ...

[Trumkin the Dwarf]

This is not directed at anyone in particilar, but if you can't track a hit elk 200 yds without blood you need to spend some time tracking before shooting at any elk...

I won't argue with anything you said excepting this. There are many areas I hunt which will yield nary a track if the ground is dry. NW Montana is thick and steep terrain, and the ground is unyielding. Southern Montana is 80 percent granite. If I could track an elk 200 yards without blood over dry ground, I'd never use a call again, I'd simply track every elk to its bed before I shot it.

At the end of the day though, you kill elk with your aiming point, and I kill elk with mine. My personal shooting traits lead me to favor the location I use for aiming, yours dictate a different choice. We both have kills to back our opinions, and that is a good thing. Perhaps this time would be better spent urging people to educate themselves, and get to know their own shooting habits before deciding where they want their broad head to hit an animal.

[Huntrgathr]

I should say, I really don't think we disagree on the effectiveness of the heart shot. I just don't use it all the time. If I'm inside 40 with an animal broadside, I'm shooting top heart.If I'm further out, or at an angle, above or below the animal (obviously) then I'm choosing a different placement. Just thought it was worth mentioning that it's not always wise to shoot for that spot...

[Kessler10]

Any of my misses (meaning a miss that hits the animal, but not exactly where I was aiming) have been high. This happened to me this year and I did not recover, so was very interested when I saw this post. Arrow went in perfect left and right where I was aiming but a bit high. I tend to aim for heart, but have now reconsidered this technique. Arrow went about half way in and broke off when I saw the elk brush against a tree and snap the arrow off. I felt like it was for sure a fatal hit, but never found a single drop of blood. Without blood its a needle in a haystack and you can probably guess how it turned out. Worst feeling in the world to not recover. My assumption is that since there was not an exit hole the body cavity would of had to fill up with blood before blood would leak out the entry hole, which could have taken enough time for the elk to get far enough away where we couldn't locate blood trail. If I clipped part of the lung I would have thought at the very least blood would be coming out of his mouth and given us a blood trail of some sort. My assumption is that the arrow hit bone on the other side since the shot was downhill on the elk and the reason it was not a clean pass through.

I will now be aiming lower than I have been on elk after this years experience, and reading this post.

[ElkNut1]

Yep, I'm with Chris on his thoughts, the black dot crowds the bone to close for my comfort! Between the black & white dot & I'd breathe much easier! (grin)

The black dot will work but that's the perfect shot with no room for error if a tad low, if leg was forward then you're good to go. I'd raise my shot which in turn would raise my odds of a good clean shot!

ElkNut1