Shoot or No Shot - Episode 3.6

[WapitiTalk1]

Sorry, lost track of the number DISCLAIMER: this bull is not in velvet, it's an optical illusion; it's mid SEPT and he has long since shed the velvet and is now a respectable hunting season bull. It's the pic I found for the situation I was looking for

You're hunting solo today. 18 SEPT, 8:00 AM, SW Montana, brow tine bull only area. You're on the very last day of your 7 day hunt. OK, you've been having a heated debate with a bull off to your left at about a 10 o'clock direction. You're working the thermals and getting in a bit closer to the herd bull before you really whizz in his cheerios and see if you can dislodge him from his harem. Snap! Your hear a noise to your 2 o'clock and see a pretty darn nice bull moving toward the herd. Change of game plan but you react appropriately and turn your attention to the quiet guy walking in. As his head gets past the LP pine, you give a nervous grunt with your voice, drawing at the same time, and....... the critter stops where you see him now! 25 to 30 yards is your best guess at range.

Are you shooting? If so, put an "X" on the spot your arrow is heading.

Reminder that if you save the picture to your desktop and open in MS Paint, you'll be able to place a spot, X, or whatever on the critter before you save it back to a jpg and add the marked up pic with your post.

velvet bull.jpg (207.51 KiB) Viewed 12063 times

[Swede]

I don't like this situation. The other bull had foliage in front of his eyes and had no idea I was there. This character has heard me and now is looking right at me. I will hold off and pray he looks away before I have to let down. If he looks away for just a second, I will shoot. The tree is no issue.

[zpd307]

no shot at this moment

[Fridaythe13th]

Last day of the hunt! Quartering at you a little bit! I might have to wait, but would not be happy about it. I don't want to wound this guy and maybe find him late in the day try to pack him out and leave for home the next day. (Sound like a fight with the wife and boss) Take the chance and wait for a perfect shot.

[ElkNut1]

25-30 yd shot, dead bull! X marks my spot! The leg bone jets to the left & my arrow would impact under scapula & into top of heart & bottom of lungs, this is a pretty safe shot!

ElkNut1

[Trumkin the Dwarf]

Boy...I don't see why you wouldn't take this shot. Plenty of lungs exposed between the leg and the tree. I put the dot a little lower than Paul in case this guy ducks a bit. If he doesn't move he dies. If he moves, he dies.

[WapitiTalk1]

Shots at elk are few and far between. I'm not advocating taking anything marginal in my multitude of shoot or no shot threads. I do however believe whole heartedly that understanding an elk's anatomy, and, being 100% confident in one's shot placement is a huge part of a successful bow hunter's tool bag. Heck, if we wait for a quartering away, broadside shot....we're missing out IMHO. Here's a few of the same pics I've posted before for your review. With this scenario? My arrow was gone almost before Bullwinkle stopped ...

ElkSkeleton.jpg (22.61 KiB) Viewed 12037 times

blood.jpg (30.95 KiB) Viewed 12037 times

elk-anatomy2.jpg (29.56 KiB) Viewed 12037 times

[easeup]

you guys already killed this bull by the time a see the post.
I'll go get the horses.

[WapitiTalk1]

you guys already killed this bull by the time a see the post.
I'll go get the horses.

Thank you sir. Let's get this one out and have a memorable camp fire dinner!

[wapitibowman]

I would place my arrow about 1-2 inches left of Elknut, so I guess that means I would shoot.

Wapitibowman

[Swede]

My concern is not the angle of the bull. It is easy to underestimate the reaction time of an elk. I have heard people talk about how the arrow will cover that distance in a half of a second. What they don't realize is that the bull will see the movement well before the arrow is at full speed and out of the bow. With a modern bow you are probably holding about 15 lbs. draw weight. Your arrow is not up to full speed until your string has traveled 27-30 inches. You have called him and now he is looking for you.
Years ago my son and I did some testing to see if we could react fast enough and get out of the way of an arrow shot our way from 30 yards. We made ourselves a safe place to test and check. Neither of us could react fast enough when we were looking away, but when we were looking at the shooter, we both could be more than completely clear of an oncoming arrow. That bull can react much quicker that any human.

[Trumkin the Dwarf]

Swede, I don't doubt it could clear out before the arrow gets there. That said, in our scenario we hit this bull with a nervous grunt for a reason. This bull is looking to identify an elk in your direction. His first reaction is to 'find the elk'. Not duck and run at the first motion. He has to see movement, then identify that it isn't an elk, before he decides to run away. By THAT time, the arrow is 95% of the way there. Which is why I aimed a little lower than Paul. I think this elk probably will flinch at the shot even though this elk looks fairly relaxed in the picture. Body language in real time makes a big difference on my decision to shoot or not. Wired animals have a certain look in their eye and set in their posture.

Either way, I'd have drawn at a different time because I shoot traditional. There is no let-off, so my personal shot selection is quite different.

[BrentLaBere]

My concern is not the angle of the bull. It is easy to underestimate the reaction time of an elk. I have heard people talk about how the arrow will cover that distance in a half of a second. What they don't realize is that the bull will see the movement well before the arrow is at full speed and out of the bow. With a modern bow you are probably holding about 15 lbs. draw weight. Your arrow is not up to full speed until your string has traveled 27-30 inches. You have called him and now he is looking for you.
Years ago my son and I did some testing to see if we could react fast enough and get out of the way of an arrow shot our way from 30 yards. We made ourselves a safe place to test and check. Neither of us could react fast enough when we were looking away, but when we were looking at the shooter, we both could be more than completely clear of an oncoming arrow. That bull can react much quicker that any human.

Very interesting point, swede. I wanted to jump on board and shoot away. Comparing it to the other thread where the branches were in the way (for me). Its really tough to say with this shot and the others. Easy to analyze here and prepare yourself mentally for whats ahead. Visualizing the shot and opportunity from draw,anchor and arrow placement, these are helpful threads. In the heat of the moment I believe I would take this shot. I would be drawn back and anchored......if that bull spins. I let down and if not my arrow is on its way. Maybe this is where everyone's expensive camo comes in .

[Toby]

25-30 yd shot, dead bull! X marks my spot! The leg bone jets to the left & my arrow would impact under scapula & into top of heart & bottom of lungs, this is a pretty safe shot!

ElkNut1

I'm shooting here.

[Trophyhill]

I like Trumpkin and Paul's mark. I'm killing this bull. Just because the bull is looking at you does not mean he is spooked. Several of the elk I've killed were looking directly in my direction when I touched off the shot and didn't move until after the arrow drove thru the vitals. IMO you have to take advantage of opportunities and this is definitely one I wouldn't hesitate on.

[ElkNut1]

This is hunting! Ones objective is to put the animal down quickly & humanely, if we worry about every little thing that could come up & try to second guess what the elk MIGHT do we may never shoot or kill an animal. This doesn't mean caution is thrown into the wind but when it's time to pull the trigger you'd better be ready & able to do so as decisions have to made in a split second in many cases. It's up to us as hunters to know the anatomy of each animal we hunt, if we only take broadside shots with zero obstructions then we are are hindering our chances for success immensely. Elk rarely come in posing to us broadside for the shot to give us a fair chance! (grin) We do the best we can under high adrenaline situations & know where the arrow needs to impact, if the elk dips or whirls then he dips or whirls, that's part of the hunt, this is one reason I like shooting them where I have a few inches for margin for error, at 25-30 yds that's a dead bull, no reason to place the seed of doubt in this situation, just know where to shoot him! This isn't a 50yd frontal shot in question here! (grin)-- Rory explained it well !

ElkNut1

[jmez]

No question

[idahoghost]

After carefully considering the bulls angle and the given shooting distance, I decided I would take the shot and put the arrow exactly where I aimed on my last 6 point. I expect the same devastating results with this bull as in the last bull.

[BrentLaBere]

Alright, I tested out my painting skills. Here ya go guys....

[stringunner]

Considering I am at full draw, steady and ready to hit the trigger when he stops, I'm shooting. However if I'm still getting "ready" to shoot, not steady and not fully prepared to hit the trigger when he steps out from that tree looking directly at me, I think with him on full alert like that, I would probably hold for him to turn his head or take another step. I like the "X" the Paul put on it, that too would be my aiming point.

[Duck-Slayer]

that's a dead bull walking...... ElkNut has got it good.... leaves alittle room too the left and alittle room too the right.... DEAD!
Matt

[Wyo67]

you guys already killed this bull by the time a see the post.
I'll go get the horses.

Yup... I'll get the game bags out and start quartering.

[Gypsumreaper]

I'd shoot that is a good bull and I see plenty of vital for a shot I would prefer if he looked away but if I was holding for a while I'd end up giving it a whirl if place my shot where the first elknut placed his, if he ducked ur still getting lungs if he lurches forward ur getting lungs, last day I'm going for it first day I'd prolly go for it as well I'm not big in passing up on elk, due to size I'm a meat hunter and antlers are just bonus, as long as they are legal of course

[Lefty]

If Im at full draw Im shooting between the crease and Elknuts "X" ., Just don't like bone
The bull isn't alert, just looking, not even knowing he is looking at danger.
I don't think I would draw the way he is looking and would wait for him to turn his focus a bit,.. he doesn't appear spooky

[easeup]

After carefully considering the bulls angle and the given shooting distance, I decided I would take the shot and put the arrow exactly where I aimed on my last 6 point. I expect the same devastating results with this bull as in the last bull.

ROLMAO!!!!!!

[Trophyhill]

After carefully considering the bulls angle and the given shooting distance, I decided I would take the shot and put the arrow exactly where I aimed on my last 6 point. I expect the same devastating results with this bull as in the last bull.

ROLMAO!!!!!!

And I thought that was a typo lol.

[elk-n-walleye]

If Im at full draw Im shooting between the crease and Elknuts "X" ., Just don't like bone.

this... and slightly lower.

[welka]

Just a little lower than Paul's mark. Seems like damn near every animal tries to jump the string these days. After missing coyotes on 3 attempts, I figured out that they are faster than deer and have to aim 4" off the ground to kill them. 3 for 3 once I figured it out. Just a little lower on Paul's spot give a little leeway for the duck, and, if by chance he doesn't duck, its a heart shot.

[Screaming_btf]

Shoot!

[Swede]

you react appropriately and turn your attention to the quiet guy walking in. As his head gets past the LP pine, you give a nervous grunt with your voice, drawing at the same time,

RJ: I have a few questions based on what I quoted above. You Say "you react appropriately.... to the quiet guy walking in. I have to admit that I am assuming your description of acting appropriately includes all you did and not just turning your attention to the new bull. At least for the sake of discussion lets assume you believe all you did was appropriate. I am also assuming wind is not a problem as the bull is headed toward the herd that has not winded you. Anyway the wind does not appear to be a factor in this scenario.

Why was it appropriate to hit him with a nervous bark while he was still "walking in"?
Why was it appropriate to hit him with a nervous bark when most of his vitals were still behind the tree?
Why was it appropriate to hit him with a nervous bark while you were still in the process of drawing your bow?
Are you going to risk the shot on a bull, that has been alerted to your presence, because it is the last day of the hunt?
I am not trying to trick you. I just want to see your reasoning on this.

[WapitiTalk1]

you react appropriately and turn your attention to the quiet guy walking in. As his head gets past the LP pine, you give a nervous grunt with your voice, drawing at the same time,

RJ: I have a few questions based on what I quoted above. You Say "you react appropriately.... to the quiet guy walking in. I have to admit that I am assuming your description of acting appropriately includes all you did and not just turning your attention to the new bull. At least for the sake of discussion lets assume you believe all you did was appropriate. I am also assuming wind is not a problem as the bull is headed toward the herd that has not winded you. Anyway the wind does not appear to be a factor in this scenario.

Swede, for the most part, I just try to create a scenario for these threads that result in a shoot, or, no shoot decision by the reader/hunter. Are all of them perfectly scripted/written and poetry in motion? No sir, I'm not that smart Perhaps "react appropriately" could have been better stated as simply, "you react to the changing situation of a visual bull within shooting range". Ok, here's my responses to your inquiries (this hurts my head on a Monday afternoon, I want you to know that ..).

Why was it appropriate to hit him with a nervous bark while he was still "walking in"? Answer: I chose to stop the moving bull as his head/body moved behind the tree with a nervous grunt, while, drawing at the same time. He wasn't walking in towards me according to the scenario, he was walking right to left. I figured he'd take a few steps, stop, and perhaps give me a shot (which he so kindly obliged me with).

Why was it appropriate to hit him with a nervous bark when most of his vitals were still behind the tree? Answer: I made my move (drawing, nervous/popping grunt with voice, using the tree he was moving behind to perhaps block my movement, thinking he'd take a few steps before he screeched to a stop). I can draw my bow very quickly, anchor, obtain a sight picture, and shoot within seconds if needed.

Why was it appropriate to hit him with a nervous bark while you were still in the process of drawing your bow? Answer: Same as above.

Are you going to risk the shot on a bull, that has been alerted to your presence, because it is the last day of the hunt? Answer: "Last day of the hunt" was just woven into the scenario to add some spice. I would personally, do the same thing on the first day or last day of my hunt. By the time this guys stops, I'd be touching off an arrow. About the time he deciphers that something is not quite right with the location the nervous grunt came from, a very sharp object would be smashing into his vitals.

I am not trying to trick you. I just want to see your reasoning on this.

[Swede]

Thanks RJ. I think there are some good teaching points that can go with this thread other than shoot or no shoot.

1. At least in my opinion, I would normally allow the bull to continue coming in if he is not aware of my presence and is not about to\. There can be reasons to cut his progress short, but don't get in too big of a hurry. I have found that I often have to force myself to wait. It pays off more often that it hurts to wait when the elk is unaware of your presence.
2. Elk can stop immediately when hit with a nervous bark. Guessing that they will advance to a certain place to better meet our needs is at best a crap shoot. I have too little experience with this to come up with any formula on, but would choose to bark when I want him to stop.
3. Drawing the bull's attention while making movement is inviting disaster. According to the scenario we were asked to consider, the bull stopped at our bark and waited after we anchored our bow string. I can say from experience that elk which see you move, are either on the alert or gone. I would recommend coming to full draw when his head is behind something, then hitting him with the nervous bark when you have already anchored and sighted.
4. I know RJ has good ethics in his hunting, but I wanted to focus a little on that last day point. There should be no difference between the shots we take on the first day or the last. I know some people change their standards as they run out of time. Their adage is "you won't get something if you don't shoot", or "it doesn't matter now, I won't be back this year." I also know of people that shoot regardless of the risk.

[ishy]

I'm shooting same spot as Paul. I tend to shoot behind the shoulder, but with the tree position this time I will swallow my ego and aim just in front of the crease.

[Wapiti]

Can't type as I'm busy eating tenderloin !!

If you guys look close on the hide you can see the scapula bone and the bone that leads to his elbow. Shot him exactly where Paul did !! 40 yard blood trail !!

[Indian Summer]

Whammo! Pass the potatoes please.