"X" Mark the Spot - #2.5

[WapitiTalk1]

5:30 PM, early September archery season in (insert state here); bull only area; caller is to the right 25 yards; shooter is at full draw under the bottom arrow, 25 yards from the stopped bull; wind is coming up the big draw and over the top of the benchy ridge you're set up on in the direction of the arrow. Both caller and shooter have good concealment to their sides and back. This cooperative wapiti has came in, very vocal, from over the sidehill to the left, up the benchy area towards the caller, and has stopped directly in front of the shooter to try and pinpoint the caller.

Are you shooting? If so, put an "X" on the spot your arrow is heading.

Reminder that if you save the picture to your desktop and open in MS Paint, you'll be able to place a spot, X, or whatever on the critter before you save it back to a jpg and add the marked up pic with your post.

CallShoot1.jpg (30.51 KiB) Viewed 12712 times

[Swede]

I don't have any of the Paint ladies here. That includes, miss, ms. or mrs. Paint, but I'm shootin. You will just have to guess where I shot.

[WapitiTalk1]

Swede decides to shoot as the caller/shooter setup worked so well, but, didn't like the rack on this particular bull. He decides to shoot it's tail off to show off his superior archery skills (white X).... Geesh Swede, not very nice at all

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[BrentLaBere]

Ohhhh I cant wait for something like this......less than 5 months.

SHOOT!

[elk-n-walleye]

If not now... when? I'm shooting. I'm a little more leary of those bones and shoulder blade so I'm shooting slightly further back than Brent, 1" maybe 2".

I had this shot last year @ 50 yds, zero wind but alert bull. chip shot for some but a little out of my "new archery hunter" comfort zone.

[Screaming_btf]

Shoot!

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[Swede]

RJ: I was wondering if I would know how to handle a bull like that. It is good to see I would be right on target.

[Trophyhill]

Shoot!

CallShoot1.jpg

Yep. This is where I'm putting my arrow! Quick clean kill and you should see or hear him go down.

[ishy]

OK so I ended 2.0 with a question as to why so many of you love to hug the shoulder so tight, no one answered so I am repeating myself after seeing the first couple of x's on this one. Why do you feel the need to be so tight to the shoulder? In fact my first look at Brents x looks like your in bone with lots of open vitals to the left, screaming is only a hair better. Is this need to gamble with that heavy bone stem from needing to hit a 10 ring at 3d shoots or am I missing something? Any of you see the full draw tour last year? One of them hit a bull pretty close to those x's and only got a huge "CRACK" and just a few inches of penetration.
So I'm shooting same level but atleast 2 inches left of the shoulder crease.

[Trumkin the Dwarf]

It doesn't get too much nicer than that! I'm shooting as quickly as I can while maintaining a semblance of calm. 6 inches straight up from the elbow and start the pack work

[WapitiTalk1]

OK so I ended 2.0 with a question as to why so many of you love to hug the shoulder so tight, no one answered so I am repeating myself after seeing the first couple of x's on this one. Why do you feel the need to be so tight to the shoulder? In fact my first look at Brents x looks like your in bone with lots of open vitals to the left, screaming is only a hair better. Is this need to gamble with that heavy bone stem from needing to hit a 10 ring at 3d shoots or am I missing something? Any of you see the full draw tour last year? One of them hit a bull pretty close to those x's and only got a huge "CRACK" and just a few inches of penetration.
So I'm shooting same level but atleast 2 inches left of the shoulder crease.

Ishy, an arrow placement tight into the "v" results more often than not in a clean cut heart and/or main artery (arteries) ka-bob (in addition to two deflated lungs). Certainly a bit outside of the "v" will result in a kill but may potentially not touch the fuel pump. Certainly if the critter is quartering even a bit towards the hunter warrants arrow placement back a bit farther to ensure that pesky shoulder blade or front leg bone is missed.

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blood.jpg (30.95 KiB) Viewed 12656 times

[Indian Summer]

dead bull walking!

On the question Ishy brought up... Lots of people assume the shoulder bone is directly above the leg. So shooting above the leg may seem like a bad shot. BUT... I would say those Xs are a little low for me. I like the left/right position of ScreaminBTF's X .... in line with the rear of the leg, but I'm aiming higher. No reason not to. I like my margin of error to be in every direction of my aiming point. if one were to hit low or right of the Xs it could be a problem.

First time I ever used Paint. lol Never know what you'll learn on here!

[Olydog09]

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[Trophyhill]

OK so I ended 2.0 with a question as to why so many of you love to hug the shoulder so tight, no one answered so I am repeating myself after seeing the first couple of x's on this one. Why do you feel the need to be so tight to the shoulder? In fact my first look at Brents x looks like your in bone with lots of open vitals to the left, screaming is only a hair better. Is this need to gamble with that heavy bone stem from needing to hit a 10 ring at 3d shoots or am I missing something? Any of you see the full draw tour last year? One of them hit a bull pretty close to those x's and only got a huge "CRACK" and just a few inches of penetration.
So I'm shooting same level but atleast 2 inches left of the shoulder crease.

Ishy, an arrow placement tight into the "v" results more often than not in a clean cut heart and/or main artery (arteries) ka-bob (in addition to two deflated lungs). Certainly a bit outside of the "v" will result in a kill but may potentially not touch the fuel pump. Certainly if the critter is quartering even a bit towards the hunter warrants arrow placement back a bit farther to ensure that pesky shoulder blade or front leg bone is missed.

bones.jpg

blood.jpg

Exactly

[WapitiTalk1]

dead bull walking!

On the question Ishy brought up... Lots of people assume the shoulder bone is directly above the leg. So shooting above the leg may seem like a bad shot. BUT... I would say those Xs are a little low for me. I like the left/right position of ScreaminBTF's X .... in line with the rear of the leg, but I'm aiming higher. No reason not to. I like my margin of error to be in every direction of my aiming point. if one were to hit low or right of the Xs it could be a problem.

First time I ever used Paint. lol Never know what you'll learn on here!

Nice painting Joe! Kept it in the lines and everything

[WapitiTalk1]

This is flystraits post; he had it posted in the wrong thread. He owes me a bag of Cheetos for moving it to the correct thread for him ...

"I agree with Ishy as well. Most will hit the shoulder IMO and from experience. I tend to be no farther forward than the elbow, again only by my own experience anything forward of that and it can get ugly real fast. I'm trying to go for the lungs and both of them as well. I have only hit the hart once aiming forward and it was only because I missed left a few inches. If a person looses a few animals based on shooting that far forward they will tend to change their opinion. Just my 2 cents.."

[jmez]

On phone so I'll have to post my pic tomorrow. But for Ishy, if you look at Indian Summer's dot, straight to the right there is a patch of sun hitting the elk. That lit up place is the shoulder joint. Not much danger of hitting bone where most all of the x' s are being put.

Most people shoot too far back and actually have less margin of error as they are flirting with a gut shot.

[Indian Summer]

Most people shoot too far back and actually have less margin of error as they are flirting with a gut shot.

Yep!

[BrentLaBere]

In my experience an animal is not going to turn towards the arrow upon release. If anything this bull is moving forward towards the caller, and if for some reason jumps your string or flinches, they tend to drop. That's why I am looking for the heart. And when I aim for a bigger area. I tend to shoot and group in a larger area. Example for me is that I dont shoot at my block target. I shoot at the small dots. Just a personal thing....

[Trumkin the Dwarf]

The shoulder "bone" is two separate bones...the lower starts at the point of the elbow and angles about 45 degrees off of vertical towards the furthest forward point of the shoulder "area". The second starts at the furthest forward point of the shoulder and angles up and back at 30-40 degrees off of vertical. That means there is a big soft spot straight up from the elbow. Anywhere too far back of the elbow is flirting with a paunch/liver/gut shot...still deadly, but hard to find the animal.

Anywhere a bit forward of the elbow is a heart shot/major artery severance. I have hit elk in the elbow, never that forward shoulder joint. It is unbelievable how far forward that joint actually is. In my experience, a bit forward of the elbow and 1/3 up the body will drop an elk faster than anything but a spine shot. The bull in my avatar got shot so far forward in the shoulder area that I thought I'd missed the chest cavity and snuck into the neck and carotid artery, rather than hitting lungs. I watched him tip over within 10 seconds . Upon field dressing it was apparent I took out the heart and lungs. Easy to shoot too high or too low, it is not as easy to shoot too far forward if you ask me. But the biggest margin for error is the aiming point 1/3 up the body from the elbow.

[jmez]

X is where I'm shooting. Red lines approximate the bones in the upper leg, scapula and humerus. Yellow line is the diaphragm. These are approximate but close. Also the diaphragm isn't flat. The middle of the diaphragm actually is concave so the liver and stomachs are well up under the rib cage and ahead of my yellow line.

[ishy]

On phone so I'll have to post my pic tomorrow. But for Ishy, if you look at Indian Summer's dot, straight to the right there is a patch of sun hitting the elk. That lit up place is the shoulder joint. Not much danger of hitting bone where most all of the x' s are being put.

Most people shoot too far back and actually have less margin of error as they are flirting with a gut shot.

OK so here's my deal, I have hit a cow 12 yards quartering away slightly 12-15 degrees with close leg forward, slightly uphill. Exit hole was almost exactly where Indian summers dot it is. My arrow hit the far scapula. Like I mentioned Unless that leg is lifted I don't think that v is as big as the diagram/drawing above show. If you look at the direction of the shadows I think the sun spot refered to above is in front of the scapula/humerous joint. That sun spot is into the start of the elks mane. I need to bring an elk into work an CT the sucker then we could really see what is going on.

[jmez]

The shoulder or scapulohumeral joint is right into the elk's mane. The joint is where the neck meets the shoulder. Much farther ahead than most realize. That sun spot is shining right on it.


If you were shooting up hill that is why you hit the far side scapula. It doesn't come down very far in the back and sits at a pretty acute angle in the leg. The scapula is also soft bone, basically has no cortex and is spongy. Unless you hit directly on the "spine" (raised area of bone) it shouldn't stop your arrow or prevent sufficient penetration for a kill shot. The problem comes when you hit high on the scapula where it overlays the cervical vertebrae. That you aren't going to get through and will result in very poor penetration and the elk leaving with your arrow. If you hit them this high that is simply a bad shot.

[ishy]

Should've explained mine wasn't a bad shot top of the heart and both lungs, she only went 40 yards and fell over. And I did get 6-7 inches of arrow sticking out the exit hole. Just amazed how low the scapula was compared to all the drawings. I know photo's can be deseving but the exit hole was right about half way up on the crease.

[jmez]

You are higher than you think. Stuff changes when they are on the ground vs standing. I drew the bone structure on your picture. Forelimb and vertebrae. Have a question, and not being an a$$. You indicate the shoulder scares you and you aim lower and farther back based on your experience with this shot. The elk died in 40 yards, you got 8+ inches of penetration through the scapula on the backside of the animal, what exactly scares you about the scapula or this forward shot placement?

[jmez]

In looking at that my vertebrae are about an inch to high where I drew them, they are lower on the animal.

[ishy]

Wish I could get the clip from the full draw tour last year. Walt Ramage I think was his name with Pahsimeroi Pictures, you can read about it (briefly mentions 2012s loss) in Extreme elk this month. He hit the close shoulder, and lost a great bull. Can't remember the exact spot, but am thinking he hit humerous because he only got a couple inches of penetration. But that is why I am leary of bone. I personally haven't had a problem yet and hopefully stays that way.

[welka]

Where is BB when you need him!! From another site many of us frequent, this is the traditional ole BB "up the leg and in the V". Agree that if he is quartering to you slightly then IS and other Xs will work also.