Frontal shot.?? Archery gear.

[Toby]

I understand that each Hunter must decide if this is a shot that they are comfortable with, so for this thread, let's assume you are. Let's say the shot is 20 yards or less, and that you are more or less level with the elk. Also, straight front on is 0* and broadside is 90*. First question, for a straight front on shot, how big is the kill zone in diameter? Second question, at what angle will you still take this shot? And, as the angle increases from 0* towards 90*, how does the size of the kill zone change?

Since I may be hunting solo this year, my chance of taking this shot will be greater.

[Duck-Slayer]

I've shot two elk in two years with my bow, both quartering too me slightly, first shot hi and spine shot him at 16 yards, the second was a cow at 20 yards and put it right behind the shoulder and got 1 lung and liver, both dead in less than 10 min., I personally wouldn't take a frontal shot unless the elk was perfectly straight on facing me, other than that let them go..... or wait..... both work.....
Matt

[WapitiTalk1]

I personally believe a frontal shot on a big game animal can be 100% deadly. How big is the kill zone? Better be capable of arrow placement in an area not much larger than a grapefruit. This said, it's not a shot I will take farther than perhaps, 25 yards unless the elk is tied to a tree. His/her body position can change in an instant forcing a "miss" of that grapefruit sized target area. I think is was Troy from Glacier Country Hunting Calls that said "think shirt pocket"; always liked that analogy. Here's a graphic aid showing what you're up against, skeletal wise. The link under the pic is an older Outdoor Life article by Aron Synder but is a very good read, and, has some accurate shot placement "dots". Good thread Toby. It's always good to bring this topic up a few times each year.

thCAJJN0TG.jpg (14.76 KiB) Viewed 31874 times

http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/live-h ... ontal-shot

[Elkduds]

Phantom, do you know if the skeleton pictured is in standing posture? If so, it gives a great illustration of of how far forward the joint between shoulder blade and upper front leg bone is, in considering broadside shots.

[elkmtngear]

Here is another article I wrote on this subject last Season: http://elkmtngear.com/blog/the-frontal- ... unity.html

[WapitiTalk1]

Phantom, do you know if the skeleton pictured is in standing posture? If so, it gives a great illustration of of how far forward the joint between shoulder blade and upper front leg bone is, in considering broadside shots.

I think this one is standing.

[Trophyhill]

Yes straight on and hard quartering too shots can be quick and deadly. I wonder how many actually practice these shots on their 3d targets. Great pic RJ

[Toby]

RJ and Jeff thanks for the links, great diagrams and pics.

[easeup]

quarter to me shot discussions are good. So hey phantom, you run low on thread subjects, get those pics up of the quartering at me shots.
there were a few earlier this year. I was surprised at the differing opinions on where to shoot.
and as I remember the guys voting to wait for a better shot were few.

[WapitiTalk1]

quarter to me shot discussions are good. So hey phantom, you run low on thread subjects, get those pics up of the quartering at me shots.
there were a few earlier this year. I was surprised at the differing opinions on where to shoot.
and as I remember the guys voting to wait for a better shot were few.

Sure will buddy. I agree, some very good discussion. Will try to post a pic or two later.

[jmez]

That elk would be standing in the skeleton picture. The actual shoulder, or knuckle, joint is much farther forward than most people think. Your kill zone on a frontal shot is about 6 inches. More importantly than the size of the kill zone is the location. Shoot too low on a frontal and you'll get them in the brisket. A little too high and right into the neck. It is a deadly shot because if you get it in the right place you will hit the heart or the aorta as it comes out of the heart. May or may not get lung but will get liver with good penetration. I actually prefer hard quartered to as apposed to straight frontal. Kill zone is about the same size and you will get both lungs, and the heart or right over the heart through the great vessels.

[Indian Summer]

I have had friends, my brother, and clients take that shot and we only ever recovered one, a gun kill (.30-06), the next day. It was still very much alive. The shot was from 140 yards. 6 bulls stepped out of the timber. his buddy took a shot at the only broadside bull at the same time and it dropped in it's tracks.

So based on actual experiences and plenty of them: I'll PASS!

What does being solo have to do with your shot angle? Looking for wounded game is sure harder solo I can tell you that.

[Trophyhill]

What does being solo have to do with your shot angle? Looking for wounded game is sure harder solo I can tell you that.

Speaking from my experience, Being solo without luxury of a caller can bring bulls in head on more often than when another caller is involved. To combat this a solo hunter can "call and move". But sometimes things unfold so fast that the hunter may not have time to move. When I "call and move", I'm moving forward so there is still possibility for a head on encounter. The most important thing on a frontal or hard quartering too shot, or any other shot is confidence and accuracy. How does a guy gain confidence and accuracy? Practice and knowing elk anatomy. A 3d target helps. Shots like theses are why I don't subscribe or practice using the pie plate theory. I want to know my shot is going to hit where I'm aiming when the moment of truth arrives. If a guys confidence and accuracy is relegated to a "pie plate" size kill zone then a frontal may not be for him and should stick to broadside shots. IMHO of course

[Toby]

I have had friends, my brother, and clients take that shot and we only ever recovered one, a gun kill (.30-06), the next day. It was still very much alive. The shot was from 140 yards. 6 bulls stepped out of the timber. his buddy took a shot at the only broadside bull at the same time and it dropped in it's tracks.

So based on actual experiences and plenty of them: I'll PASS!

What does being solo have to do with your shot angle? Looking for wounded game is sure harder solo I can tell you that.

Calling solo increases the odds that the elk will come right to the caller. In some situations it is possible to move after calling, but not always. I have tracked a lot of game by myself, although I prefer having help, you have to do what you have to do.

[Indian Summer]

It seems to be a 50/50 chance that bulls will circle downwind of a caller presenting something other than a head on approach. If you are the shooter and have a caller behind you it is usually a good idea to be to the downwind side a bit instead of directly between the caller and the bull. One thing that is for sure... if you are on a game trail you need to get off of it in a hurry and obviously you'll get a broadside shot.

I'm not going to hammer out a pile of stories about frontal shots gone bad here. But Trophy you mentioned the need for accuracy and knowledge of anatomy. True BUT... even a perfect broadside shot has unforeseeable circumstances. "Hoping" to hit a grapefruit sized spot on an animal that is facing you on full alert is what I would call a risk. Like I said.. I'm just speaking from what I have seen. Also shots in the heavy hide and hair of the brisket produce little to no blood so if you don't hit that grapefruit odds are you are in trouble. I've seen an arrow bury in the front to the fletchings and no bull.

Last... people love to come on the net and recite stories of success. But they are reluctant to tell the stories of bad choices they made and ones of lost elk. So you won't find as many of those to form an opinion on. My take: If you have an elk that close you are doing something right and a little more patience will most likely give you a better shot opportunity.

I'm passing every time unless I'm gun hunting.

[Toby]

Indian Summer, good post. I certainly have a great deal of respect for what you say/write. And, I appreciate the way that you share your differing opinion without putting others down. Lots of good info in your post.

Sometimes I liken shooting game animals to shooting a basketball, sometimes you just know you can make a shot so you take it, and that confidence is huge. Other times, and this is something to think about for all shots on big game, if it doesn't feel right, don't shoot, whether it is frontal, broadside, or something in between. Don't get me wrong, attempting to take the life of any animal is vastly more important than any basketball game, I am just trying to draw an analogy.

I read countless posts about those taking broadside shots at elk in the 50-60 yard range. And,I am sure a lot of guys can make that all day. In my mind a 15 yard frontal shot is easier, for me, than a 50-60 yard broadside shot. But then, I am a mid-western Whitetail Hunter primarily. I know the guys out West need to shoot longer distances due to the open country, and I don't have a problem with that as I am sure that they practice those ranges a lot.

You know, with all the preparation that goes into an elk hunt, both mental and physical, I think the most important is preparing oneself mentally for "the shot". Threads like this help me do just that.

[Indian Summer]

I'm a hardcore realist. I make it a point to put myself in the other guys and gals shoes. (though I hate stilettos) It goes without saying that if someone shot an elk head on and it fell over dead they would feel it's an awesome shot angle and who could blame them.

I read what I write. I am totally aware that I can sound pretty stubborn or opinionated at times. But I hope people do the same by putting themselves in my shoes and realize that since I did outfit hundreds of hunters over the years I have a fairly high number of others experiences to tally up to um... justify being stuck in my rut! lol Heck I've seen several guys miss with a .300 Win Mag at 60 yards! Several.

I would completely agree with you by the way: If I had to pick between a broadside shot over 50 yards and a 15-20 frontal I'd take the frontal for sure. I'm a long bomber when it comes to rifles but definitely not with a bow. Not much can change in the blink of an eye it would take my arrow to cover that distance whereas a whole lot could change while it makes it's way 150-200 feet. String jump for one right. Plus I've been close enough to my share of elk to keep it together at spitting distance.

I appreciate the kind words!

[Trophyhill]

Indian Summer. When I shoot I'm not throwing up a wing and a prayer. I'm shooting to kill and that means hitting the hair I'm aiming at! not a grapefruit size target.

[Indian Summer]

Indian Summer. When I shoot I'm not throwing up a wing and a prayer. I'm shooting to kill and that means hitting the hair I'm aiming at! not a grapefruit size target.

Even Randy Ulmer has a flyer now and then. Every time? Even at a foam target? And the elk agree to stand still? If that's the case you should consider signing on to the U.S. Olympic team then. Sounds like you're a shoe in for the gold.

[Trophyhill]

Indian Summer. When I shoot I'm not throwing up a wing and a prayer. I'm shooting to kill and that means hitting the hair I'm aiming at! not a grapefruit size target.

Even Randy Ulmer has a flyer now and then. Every time? Even at a foam target? And the elk agree to stand still? If that's the case you should consider signing on to the U.S. Olympic team then. Sounds like you're a shoe in for the gold.

Lmao well I'll go ahead and admit I prefer a broadside shot. Broadside shots increase my effective range. Who's Randy Ulmer? Is he a tv hunter?

[Indian Summer]

TV hunter! What kind of credentials would that give a guy? Zero right.

He is a world class competition shooter and hunter... and a heck of a nice guy who regularly admits that on occasion, he misses.

If you Google his name you'll get a hundred results but this is a short and sweet one. http://www.eastonhunting.com/athletes/randy-ulmer

[Lefty]

I ve shot two rifle bulls with frontal shots one at 39 the other at 54 yards both shots took off the top of the heart
I would take the shot out to 22-25 yards if the animal didnt know I was there
nearly a perfect front maybe 5 degrees either way