Elk Fact/Behavior Round Robin - Concur or Bullshrimp

[WapitiTalk1]

In my neverending quest to find ways for us to talk about these big galoots, I've came up with an elk "round robin". It goes like this, someone throws out a fact or behavior trait about elk and folks will respond in their follow on posts with either "concur" if they agree or "bullshrimp" if they don't. You may certainly add comments to your concur/bullshrimp response if you wish. We'll try to keep it rolling along, but, please wait for at least two follow on posts to occur for any posted elk fact or behavior offered prior to moving on.

Example: RJ posts "Elk ivories are the two teeth located directly behind the top two canines". Trophy posts "bullshrimp.. they actually are the elk's top two canines".

Should be fun..... I'll get the first one going.

[WapitiTalk1]

Elk almost always feed and move with the prevailing thermals or winds in their face.

[Trophyhill]

Ok I'll play. Being that I'm certainly no expert, I don't know that there is any scientific evidence to support this. Moving with the thermals? I'm calling BS on this one.

[Swede]

I agree with Trophyhill. Elk don't follow wind currents. They will drop down into the meadows in the evening and head back up to bed the next day, but they will feed around and go with or cross the wind.

[Swede]

How about this theory or hypothesis? Bug bulls are polite, and will allow smaller bulls to go first to the local water hole when they are together.

[Olydog09]

How about this theory or hypothesis? Bug bulls are polite, and will allow smaller bulls to go first to the local water hole when they are together.

Absolutely true. Most big bulls I have encountered are gentlemen held in the highest of regard.

[WapitiTalk1]

Concur.. but not necessarily because the old bulls are being nice, it's because they're wise!

[Swede]

You guys crack me up. I thought for sure I would throw some off with that question.
Okay wise guys try this. The lead cow determines the movement of the herd?

[ElkNut1]

Elk almost always feed and move with the prevailing thermals or winds in their face.

Concur! Elk rarely move in a direction with the wind at their backs. Crosswinds are OK, they still hit the elk in the face as well as a head on wind alerting them of possible danger. It takes a special occurrence such as predators or harassment for elk to neglect this survival mode tendency. Favorable wind is the root to an elks survival from many possible threats that can end their lives!

ElkNut1

[Swede]

Oregon must have some weird elk. In the evening I can't remember how many times I have observed, and even shot elk moving /feeding down slope. They often feed down until they get to water. Which direction do they go after that is anyone's guess. Often I shoot, so all bets are off concerning direction of travel, and besides they are no longer feeding. This past September I had a herd feeding on fresh mushrooms moving upslope at about 11:15 AM. Earlier in the season I had a herd come in that was feeding diagonally upslope in the early afternoon.
There is a herd of standing elk at the Reedsport elk viewing area at about noon in early July. 43* 41' 40.9" N, 24* 02' 13.33" W. Which direction are they facing? The wind is coming in from the NW.

[WapitiTalk1]

The lead cow determines the movement of the herd?

I concur with a side note. Many times an older, dry cow will perform coach duties for herd movement but a threatened bull (possessive of his harem) will dictate when it's time to move also.

[Trophyhill]

The lead cow determines the movement of the herd?

Common knowledge says yes but....3 years ago while hunting 561 in CO I had made my way up onto a steep ridge at about 8 am. After a short break to catch my wind, rehydrate and grab a snack, I did some calling from a great spot where I could be heard from both sides of the ridge. After about 40 minutes of no response, it was time to go. As I worked slowly along this ridge, suddenly I heard cows talking very close. Scanning in front of me I saw what went against what I've been told. The herd bull was leading his cows over the ridge thru a saddle. To my amazement, the "lead bull" was using what I can describe as distinct nasally cow type sounds while leading the herd. I'm not going to get into what happened next as I don't like making excuses but I saw what I saw and heard what I heard. Toby, I should have killed that bull while still hunting.

That was the first but not the last time I've heard this nasally cow sound. Last year the small bull I killed came in to me using the same sounds on his final approach.

[ElkNut1]

True, there will be areas where elk have no choice in wind direction as winds/thermals can be chaotic/swirling at times but don't kid ourselves here elk will do their best to keep one of their best defenses to their advantage, wind direction!It should also be noted where wind isn't favorable such as in large openings that elk can see well out in front of them to spot danger & avoid it. Nothing written in stone! But the question was "for the most part" -- Swede, I'm really surprised with all your years of elk hunting you've not noticed this? When sitting your treestands for hours & days at a time do you not notice that elk approach with favorable wind to their advantage? Not being sarcastic here, it's a serious question.

It's like Trophyhills experience with the herd bull in the lead, anyone who's hunted a few years has seen this activity as well, is it the norm? No. I'd venture a guess & say that 85% of the time as a herd moves to & from it will be the lead cow that takes precedence here. It's not to say that you would Never see a bull in the lead because it can happen, play the odds guys not "would could happen but not expected" -- The norm here is the cows will be upfront! Just as the norm is elk will keep the winds to their advantage whether on the move or bedded!

ElkNut1

[WapitiTalk1]

On realtively flat, even ground, you can often tell a cow track from a bull track. If the top track is a bit outside the bottom track, it's more than likely a cow. If the top track is inside the bottom track, it's probably a bull.

[tdiesel]

yep cows have wider rear hips for a birthing canal bulls have broader front shoulders usually but like stated even ground!!! if they are traversing a side hill or something its anyones guess.

[Washington Wapiti]

Hmmm . . . I don't know, to me that kind of difference in outside versus inside is almost negligible. Let me get out my micrometer. I'll call bullshrimp. Small tracks along with large tracks (Cow with calf) is a better indicator of female gender. For a bull . . . *shrug*

[POk3s]

I usually just look for overall size and dew claw marks in the snow. Again, not to say a big old cow can't have a giant track but it's kind of like a woman with size 13 feet. Pretty rare!

[Washington Wapiti]

I like a good, large-footed woman.
You can tell the age of a bull by the number of points on his antlers.

[Swede]

Paul: I think we are debating over nuances in words. RJ said "almost always" and I was focusing on that point as opposed to your 85%. You ask a good question about the direction of travel by elk approaching a water hole. The truth is I can't say I have seen anything consistent. My favorite wallow/water hole is in a wide draw. I suppose I have spent 800 hours there over the years. I have seen many elk come to water. They come down the draw in the evening, like the last bull I wrote about killing in 2012. The sun was well set, the breeze was going down hill, and I did not have much time to find him before dark. Sometimes elk come in from lower down in the draw in the evening and early morning. Most of the time they come down in the evening from the higher side slopes.
I sense no disrespect in your surprise that I am not observing the same thing you have. I can miss on things, or we could be experiencing different things due to different situations. Where I hunt, natural predators are not having a major effect on the elk yet. Could that account for some of the difference? Also I have noticed that elk catch my scent regardless of which way they are faced when the wind carries my smell their way. Is an elk's sense of smell compromised by their direction of travel or orientation? To be fair, I have never considered this matter. Your thoughts and others would be appreciated.

[Swede]

Washington: The answer to your statement is that it is "wrong". Genetics and forage have a lot to do with how many antler points a young bull has. The mass of the antler is a better indicator, but is not foolproof either. To determine a bull's age you need to cut off an antler and count the rings.

[Olydog09]

Baby Got back. True.

[Olydog09]

That was in reference to the hoof prints question. I am at work and started to answer then got pulled away.

[Lefty]

To determine a bull's age you need to cut off an antler and count the rings.

Tough question; I cant wait for the correct answer

[one_elk]

To determine a bull's age you need to cut off an antler and count the rings.

Tough question; I cant wait for the correct answer

I’ve heard it is easier just to take a core sample thus leaving the antlers intact

.....A cow elk will calve in virtually the same area/spot every year

[Trophyhill]

Great thread! I can put my "North American Elk Ecology and Management" encyclopedia away while this thread is going :$

[WapitiTalk1]

[quote=You can tell the age of a bull by the number of points on his antlers.[/quote]

To some degree (partial concur and partial bullshrimp). You can estimate the age of a bull by his antlers but it's not the most accurate method. The most accurate way I've heard of is the teeth. Here's a link to the MFW&P that explains this process:

http://fwp.mt.gov/hunting/planahunt/hun ... chure.html

[WapitiTalk1]

A cow elk will calve in virtually the same area/spot every year.

(this is one_elks post...I wanted to make sure everyone saw it).

[Washington Wapiti]

LOL, Swede, One_Elk stole the "core sample" joke I was going to make Dang it, always too little, too late. Yep, as Swede said, nutrition and genetics play a larger role in antler development. I think this is a pretty good example of little thing in genetics/biology called phenotypic plasticity; the ability of an organisms morphology to change as a response to environmental conditions. RJ is also right . . . you can estimate the age roughly, however the number of points do not really correspond to the actual age of an elk. Cementum annuli is the most accurate method. I learned how to do it in school years ago, but have never actually tried to do it in the field.

[Washington Wapiti]

A cow elk will calve in virtually the same area/spot every year.

(this is one_elks post...I wanted to make sure everyone saw it).

Hmmm, based on my own observations and experience I'll say partially concur and partial bullshrimp! I'll be interested to hear the answer on this one.

[Toby]

Trophyhill, I would love to hear the story of the one that got away while still hunting, much to learn from those situations.

[Toby]

Here's one for ya, bulls can count, how else would they know when they have all of there cows?

[Swede]

Toby, it does work like that. Just like home when the women are all there, you hear a constant chatter. If it ever gets quiet, you know someone is missing. It is time to check to see what is going on.

[WapitiTalk1]

Here's one for ya, bulls can count, how else would they know when they have all of there cows?

Concur, but not really in the sense that we count. Agree with Swede on the chatter analogy...trouble may be a brewing if they go quiet Bull's know who they have in their groups by sound, sight, and I would say predominately smell. During the rut a bull checks each of his cows numerous times during the day to see if they would like to have a date. I do know they can be fooled to thinking another bull has taken one of them so, they can't count too awfully well.

[Toby]

So I would imagine that if you cow call right after busting a herd, and the bull can't count real fast, that you may have a good chance of calling him back to you???

[otcWill]

So I would imagine that if you cow call right after busting a herd, and the bull can't count real fast, that you may have a good chance of calling him back to you???

Heck yea, you would; especially if he doesn't know what the commotion is about. I much prefer a bugle to a cow call though in this situation and almost all others for calling back the herd bull.

[ElkNut1]

Swede, I hear ya bud! No big deal! I do know the importance of making sure that the wind is in our favor as we run & gun them! (grin) Gosh that wind can be tough to manage at times, I just wish the elk had as tough a time as we do managing it! I do wish the elk would be a bit more careless at times! (grin) Good discussion guys! I love hearing everyones thoughts on the various subjects, very cool!

ElkNut1

[Toby]

So I would imagine that if you cow call right after busting a herd, and the bull can't count real fast, that you may have a good chance of calling him back to you???

Heck yea, you would; especially if he doesn't know what the commotion is about. I much prefer a bugle to a cow call though in this situation and almost all others for calling back the herd bull.

octWill, that's good to know.

[Trophyhill]

Trophyhill, I would love to hear the story of the one that got away while still hunting, much to learn from those situations.

Well as I was saying, as the "lead bull" moved in front of me he stopped (15 yards is pushing it, he may have only been 10) with his head turned back cow talking to the herd with his head on my side, I slow drew my bow, anchored, released and heard a very loud crack and then thundering hooves with about 25 cows and another smaller bull that was taking up the rear. The only thing I can think is that his antlers were in the vital area while his head was turned (he was perfectly broadside) and the arrow may have hit a tine and shot into the dirt at his feet. That one still hurts as he was a true herd bull I saw that same bull with all the cows and the smaller bull the next morning and got winded before I could make a play on him. I'm surprised that this herd bull was tolerating the smaller bull in the group. This was the first week of September. A while back Jason Phelps demonstrated a nasally cow call on a video. He's had success with this call. Paul, have you seen/heard bulls making this sound?

[Toby]

Thanks for sharing,makes sense that you could have hit one of the tines. Something to be aware of. I love hearing about elk encounters, always learn something.

[Trophyhill]

Thanks for sharing,makes sense that you could have hit one of the tines. Something to be aware of. I love hearing about elk encounters, always learn something.

I think the reason that one hurt so bad was because I'd been close so many times before this only to blow it when the shot presented itself. And he would have been my first bull lol

[elk-n-walleye]

So I would imagine that if you cow call right after busting a herd, and the bull can't count real fast, that you may have a good chance of calling him back to you???

I didn't have the patients or forethought to use this technique last year. bull busted to the right and cows kept meandering. my initial thought was wait for the cows to move off a little, as to not spook them, then follow after the bull. but the sight of easy pickins and the thought of meat for the next year was overwhelming. so I shot a cow.

come to think of it though since the cows didn't bust the lost cow or regathering call may have back fired since the cows were still within 30yrds. I would have simply alerted them to my presence.

Anyone with a brief thought on this. then back to regular programming.

[Olydog09]

Under close inspection you can tell if the elk bed you are investigating was made by a bull or cow.

[Trophyhill]

Here's an easy one for you. Elk only rut in September and October

[easeup]

Paul: I think we are debating over nuances in words. RJ said "almost always" and I was focusing on that point as opposed to your 85%. You ask a good question about the direction of travel by elk approaching a water hole. The truth is I can't say I have seen anything consistent. My favorite wallow/water hole is in a wide draw. I suppose I have spent 800 hours there over the years. I have seen many elk come to water. They come down the draw in the evening, like the last bull I wrote about killing in 2012. The sun was well set, the breeze was going down hill, and I did not have much time to find him before dark. Sometimes elk come in from lower down in the draw in the evening and early morning. Most of the time they come down in the evening from the higher side slopes.
I sense no disrespect in your surprise that I am not observing the same thing you have. I can miss on things, or we could be experiencing different things due to different situations. Where I hunt, natural predators are not having a major effect on the elk yet. Could that account for some of the difference? Also I have noticed that elk catch my scent regardless of which way they are faced when the wind carries my smell their way. Is an elk's sense of smell compromised by their direction of travel or orientation? To be fair, I have never considered this matter. Your thoughts and others would be appreciated.

been thinking about this one..........
Is it possible those elk have stood up on the hillside listening, watching and smelling for awhile and then decide it is OK to come on down for a drink? a thirst must be quenched. Now Swede didn't say but I suspect many times the bull is escorted.

[Toby]

So I would imagine that if you cow call right after busting a herd, and the bull can't count real fast, that you may have a good chance of calling him back to you???

I didn't have the patients or forethought to use this technique last year. bull busted to the right and cows kept meandering. my initial thought was wait for the cows to move off a little, as to not spook them, then follow after the bull. but the sight of easy pickins and the thought of meat for the next year was overwhelming. so I shot a cow.

come to think of it though since the cows didn't bust the lost cow or regathering call may have back fired since the cows were still within 30yrds. I would have simply alerted them to my presence.

Anyone with a brief thought on this. then back to regular programming.

I'm thinking that a bull squeal would have brought him right in.

[Washington Wapiti]

What was the consensus on the telling gender by tracks? Bullshrimp or Washington Wapiti's lack of a discerning eye?

[WapitiTalk1]

What was the consensus on the telling gender by tracks? Bullshrimp or Washington Wapiti's lack of a discerning eye?

Shawn, my pop actually showed me this years ago. As mentioned, on relatively level ground, it actually is a pretty good indicator whether the elk was a cow or bull. Cow's hips are wider than a bull's so their back feet (top track) are usually seen on the outside of the first (front leg) tracks. Just the opposite for bulls with narrower rear hips, and, seemingly broader front... their hind tracks (top track) are usually seen on top or even a bit on the inside edge of the first (front leg) tracks. This isn't 100% as younger elk that have not fully grown into their eventual body do not follow this theory for obvious reasons, and, all bets are off when the elk are traveling on uneven ground.

[Washington Wapiti]

What was the consensus on the telling gender by tracks? Bullshrimp or Washington Wapiti's lack of a discerning eye?

Shawn, my pop actually showed me this years ago. As mentioned, on relatively level ground, it actually is a pretty good indicator whether the elk was a cow or bull. Cow's hips are wider than a bull's so their back feet (top track) are usually seen on the outside of the first (front leg) tracks. Just the opposite for bulls with narrower rear hips, and, seemingly broader front... their hind tracks (top track) are usually seen on top or even a bit on the inside edge of the first (front leg) tracks. This isn't 100% as younger elk that have not fully grown into their eventual body do not follow this theory for obvious reasons, and, all bets are off when the elk are traveling on uneven ground.

Right on . . . anatomically, it makes complete sense. I just wasn't sure if that translated onto the ground. Seems like everytime I see tracks, they aren't very well defined or there are so many I can't make heads or tails of it. Then again, I'm not the world's greatest tracker by any means. I just get excited if I see tracks that aren't rabbit or deer. LOL I'll have to start paying more attention to this!

[WapitiTalk1]

Here's an easy one for you. Elk only rut in September and October

Bullshrimp. "The rut is all about the cows . Each cow comes into estrus at different times of the rut. They don’t all go into estrus during the peak. It is called the “peak of the rut” because most of them do. Some cows go into estrus earlier, young cows perhaps much later. Some do not get bred during their first estrus cycle and have a second estrus period either in very late September and even through the first three weeks of October. There is some evidence that a third phase may sometimes occur during the end of October and first part of November. But the peak period of elk in rut occurs within five or ten days of September 22nd or 23rd, "the autumnal equinox". “Estrus” causes an odorous pheromone to be released into the air that drives bulls crazy for a mate, and sometimes to act foolishly in the presence of hunters. The elk rut, in general, lasts from September through October, with some breeding activity continuing into November. The peak of the rut is when the most elk breeding activity occurs. It can be quite frenzied, with lots of bugling, cow talk and elk movement when other circumstances align themselves. Weather influences the daytime rut activity, as does hunting pressure, wolf and other predator presence and, of course, location of food and bedding areas. If you are in prime elk habitat and the elk are there, knowing when the peak of the elk rut will occur is just a start." I gleaned some of this language from a few various sources

[WapitiTalk1]

Swede once "whizzed" on a live bear's head. Concur or bullshrimp?

[pd]

I learned something new here: Both bulls and cows have eye teeth (canine teeth).

[one_elk]

Swede once "whizzed" on a live bear's head. Concur or bullshrimp?

I know it to be true, I read the book and of course believe everything I read! So I guess I Concur

[one_elk]

A cow elk will calve in virtually the same area/spot every year.

(this is one_elks post...I wanted to make sure everyone saw it).

Hmmm, based on my own observations and experience I'll say partially concur and partial bullshrimp! I'll be interested to hear the answer on this one.

based on the location data sets I have seen a cow will calve in the same area year after year some within a couple hundred of meters….

[Washington Wapiti]

Swede once "whizzed" on a live bear's head. Concur or bullshrimp?

LOL! I quite enjoyed Swede's stories in his book, and got a good chuckle out of this one. Concur

[Washington Wapiti]

A cow elk will calve in virtually the same area/spot every year.

(this is one_elks post...I wanted to make sure everyone saw it).

Hmmm, based on my own observations and experience I'll say partially concur and partial bullshrimp! I'll be interested to hear the answer on this one.

based on the location data sets I have seen a cow will calve in the same area year after year some within a couple hundred of meters….

From what I've seen in my areas, I would concur on this one. The "bullshrimp part" I was thinking in-terms of unless those animals are pressured or harassed in some way, that would cause them to change up these areas.