Help me understand these bugles.

[Toby]

Been reading through the play book and could use some help understanding the differences and ......how to respond to; challenge bugle, lip bawl bugle, round up bugle, and calling cows to them bugle.

[Trophyhill]

Aggressive elk are fun and exciting! From what I have experienced the challenge encounters are up close and very personal to and for a dominant bull and the action can be fast and furious. Hesitation is your enemy is the bull challenging you (the other bull)? As soon as a challenge is recognized, I think most experienced callers/hunters will cut him off mid bugle and maybe throw in some raking/stomping. Others that have had these encounters should chime in.

Is the challenge directed at another bull? If so you just hit the elk jackpot. Last season after my CO hunt I ran down to central NM to call for some friends. One morning I had Dusty with me. First thing that morning the valley was going ape@&$! with cows and calfs talking and lots of bugling. I heard some aggressive challenging going on at the top of a ridge from 3-400 yards away and then we saw 2 bulls fighting in a small opening. No time to dilly dally right?

So as we are moving quickly up the gentle sloping mountain and getting closer to the action (we were no longer in visual contact) 1 of the bulls bugles. That was too easy to read. Figuring the winner is the one who bugled, as soon as I felt I was inside 75 yards with Dusty another 30 yards closer I ripped a challenge of my own and started raking a piñon pine. The bull came unglued and ran in and stopped 10-15 yards in front of my friend behind some tangle he found favorable and started tearing it up with his antlers. I kept the bull there for at least 30 seconds while Dusty (first time elk and Bowhunter) froze up. Had he moved a couple yards 1 way or another he would have killed that bull instead of going home with wet shorts and a memory. Hesitation is your enemy when dealing with aggressive elk IMO.

[Swede]

To be fair, I can't tell from one bugle 300-400 yards away in the timber what was said, if the bull was not answering just me. Depending on the terrain and cover try to get as close as reasonably possible before you let your presence be known. If I still have no more idea what the bull was saying I would give out a cow call to him. It is easier to ramp up the volume if necessary. My concern would be that if I misunderstood what he said I could push him away. Let me add, I think this is a matter where knowing your local elk really helps. People hunting high pressure, call shy elk are likely to play this differently than someone hunting where the elk rarely encounter crazy bow hunters.

[Garrett Drach]

Been reading through the play book and could use some help understanding the differences and ......how to respond to; challenge bugle, lip bawl bugle, round up bugle, and calling cows to them bugle.

I'm in the same boat, deciphering the sounds I hear is a weakness.

I've always thought a useful tool would be an in-the-field video (with audio) version of The Playbook (or is Sounds By The Elk an audio version of the The Playbook?). Have the caller run the camera while on a hunt and give real time explanation of what he/she hears (e.g. "the sound that bull just produced was a challenge bugle") as events are unfolding, then explain what he/she is going to do next (e.g. "to respond to that bull's challenge bugle my next step(s) is XYZ"), and so forth though out the hunt. Explanations of shooter(s) and caller(s) location and approach in relation to animals and terrain could be included also. The audio of the elk coupled with deciphering what was said would be main benefit IMO.

[WapitiTalk1]

The Sounds by the Elk CD contains the majority of the elk sounds discussed in the playbook. The CD really helps put a label to each type sound explained in the book. Additionally, all the elk sounds heard on the CD are "wild" elk sounds.

[ctdad]

I've been an elknut student for the last couple of years. I've gotten much better at deciphering the different sounds over time. I can even mimic more of them than I used to be able to.

What Ive come to focus on when it comes to elk sounds is this: Big picture, what does that bull elk want? It's probably either a girlfriend or a fight. If I can focus on which big picture thought he is having, I should have a pretty good idea of how to respond or react.

In the heat of the moment with the adrenaline going, I need things as straight forward as possible and this is the big picture I try to focus on. I love learning and discussing all of the differences between sounds, but I'm always asking myself, what am I going to do if I hear this sound or that?

[Elkonthebrain]

To learn, I bought the sounds by the Elk cd and would pick a random track, turn the volume down until Paul was done talking, and then try and guess what sound then skip back and see if I was right.

[ElkNut1]

Been reading through the play book and could use some help understanding the differences and ......how to respond to; challenge bugle, lip bawl bugle, round up bugle, and calling cows to them bugle.

Trophyhill, you gotta love days when elk are in ruttfest mode! (grin) Nice job of decision making & calling! Swede, here's a great example where a slightly different strategy could have still worked as you brought up in another thread! In that situation as Dave encountered I could have gotten close as David did & gave a couple of urgent cow calls, as soon as the bull demanded I get over there & then challenge him, it could have produced the same results! Here's another choice! I could have given the two cow calls & when the bull responded just start raking aggressively, this too has great potential of bringing that herd bull right into ones lap when you are that close! There's more things that could have been done to get a herd bull to react there too but there's a few! Just food for thought! (grin)

Challenge Bugle-- This warns other bulls that are getting to close to his herd where cows are in or nearing estrus to stay back or else! -- The above examples are very good choices to use on aggressive herd bulls! If I added another it would be once I cow called & the herd bull demanded I get over there I could head right at him using excited cow sounds as long as I had good cover, wind in my favor & started in the 100yd range or so. Call & Stalk could also work in that encounter, meaning caller keeps bull calling to give away position & shooter slips in silent for his shot. You could also go with caller staying back several hundred yards as shooter goes at this herd bull cow calling excitedly, then caller does his best to try to call his cow back with bugling of his own, this is an exciting method with the herd bull & possibly other bulls going nuts with this chaotic action you're representing. Then there's the ole slip in silent & undetected & do your best to get a shot at this bull with no calling. Each situation can present different challenges, that's the time to adjust & adapt to what should work best or give you the greatest odds of success!

Standard Lip Bawl Bugle, Round Up Bugle & Calling Cows To Them Bugle all have the same motive, bringing cows their way. The Lip Bawl Bugle is the name of a Bugle tone. It is the Bugle tone used when a bull is rounding up cows, his or others, so the Round Up Bugle is the Lip Bawl Bugle used at that time! -- If you receive a response from a bull & it has the Lip Bawl in it you need to get to that bull quickly as he's trying to gather his cows pronto for possible exiting the area. This is a great time to get in his face quickly before cows are rounded up & hit him with 2-3 sexy cow calls & then challenge him when he bugles for that cow to get over to him, adding a few hard bull pants can really sell it!--- The Bugle a bull uses to Call Cows his way is a short high pitch scream which can be accompanied by chuckling, at times this short bugle scream can vary with 1-2-or 3 notes according to age & excitement level of bull They are used by both herd bulls & satellite bulls. Here's a few examples of their use! You will hear this bugle when you receive a response from a bull while cow calling, either satellite or herd bull. Herd bulls can use this bugle in a non urgent manner as he keeps in touch with his cows location. Satellites will use this same sound as they stay back out of harms way from the herd bull at a distance as cows show signs of estrus in an effort to pull some cows from the herd towards them. When bulls do this & do it for a fairly long period of time with too many bugles to count then they are using them in more of an Advertising sequence!

There's many methods of use that can attract these bulls especially satellites. Cow calling, cow calling & raking, breeding sequences, The Threat on every level, etc. These methods create excitement & curiosity at the same time drawing these juveniles your way! The closer to them the better your chances are at a shot opportunity! Hope this helps!

as a sidenote we've killed bulls with everyone of these techniques!

ElkNut1

[Toby]

So, comparing a challenge bugle to a lip bawl bugle, the challenge is longer and with grunts. Is this accurate. I'm just trying to simplify things.

[ElkNut1]

I will see if I can get both sounds up here on this thread. The Challenge bugle generally has a coarse growl to it, it can have a grunt or grunts in front of bugle or after the bugle or both & the Lip Bawl Bugle when gathering or talking to cows does not. Once both are heard it's fairly simple to tell the two apart. If you have the Sounds By The Elk CD you can listen to them there & see the differences.

It's good you want to know the differences because as hunters we have to realize we have a very short time to get on a bull who uses Lip Bawls over the Challenge Bugle.

ElkNut1

[ElkNut1]

OK, here's the two sounds talked about, the 1st one is a Challenge bugle, listen closest to the 2nd & third bull, notice the heavy growl!

The 2nd audio is Lip Bawls. Notice the intensity that some have over the others, some are more urgent as the bull is concerned about intruders too close to his cows.

Both these sounds along with many others are on the Sounds By The Elk CD.

Bottom line is this, you need to get to the Bull using Lip Bawls pronto if he responds with that bugle to your location bugle, you only have 5-10 minutes tops before he gathers the troops & heads the other way. The bull using a Challenge Bugle generally will hold his real estate, you have more time to slip in silently or use sounds as above described! In either case the majority of techniques discussed above can work on either bull, that's an important thought here!

ElkNut1

[Toby]

Paul, thanks for posting, that really helps. It is interesting to note that the techniques that you mentioned will work in both situations.

One more question, for the Hunter in doubt, during the heat of the moment, as to which one he is hearing. What technique would you recommend at the top,of your list.

[ElkNut1]

Toby, with a bull showing aggressiveness, meaning he's doing lots of bugling on his own whether Challenges or Lip Bawls mixed in with contact type bugles to maintain order in the moving herd I will get as close as possible & generally hit him with 2-3 whines from a separated cow, when the bull responds & he generally will I will give him a couple more showing my interest to get over to him when he bugles again for me to catch up I will throw in a 5- point bull sized challenge for him to back off & leave the cow be. This generally will get his dander up & he will come to you on a string when you are in the 100yd range or closer, this makes it very convenient for him!

In the video clip below my son, grandson & I dogged this herd bull pushing his cows up the mountain to bed, we heard him at daylight with his Lip Bawls & contact bugles just keeping in touch with his cows as they moved up the mtn. We did not call to the bull but did our best to keep up with the group, it was tough as we climbed 1400' up. We were cliffed out more than a few times but nice thing was the bull bugled regularly so we had a direction. We hustled up the mtn playing catch up & was able to cut the distance to aprox 100yds over an hour later. As soon as we got to a good setup spot my son & Tanner moved to the top of this knoll aprox 50yds from me & to my right, I stayed just below the knoll so I could pull the bull past them & straight at me!

I heard the bull bugle straight above me in the timber, at that moment with the boys setup I gave 2-3 cow whines, the bull bugled instantly, I called again 2-3 times & the bull bugled again, I rolled two three rocks down the mtn the size of softballs to imitate elk moving around then started raking a tree fairly violently so the sound would carry up above to him, as soon as the bull bugled the raking (seconds after rocks bouncing) I challenged him with the coarse 5 point bull bugle, that's where the video starts & you can see what takes place from there & how quickly this bull comes in!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PofNJw_LlsM

ElkNut1

[Elkonthebrain]

That bull was a stud.... Wish you could have got him. It's awesome to see a 14 year old out there with you, hope he's soaking up all that knowledge, if so in a couple years he's going to be lethal.

[ElkNut1]

Thanks, yes he was a very nice OTC DIY Idaho bull. My son or I would have loved to have had a crack at that guy! (grin) Tanner is my grandsons name & he has taken 3 muley bucks & 3 elk so far at a young age so he's hanging in there pretty good. I too would have liked to see him take that bull, he needed to wait a bit longer & that bull would have been broadside to him at 20yds. Oh well, that's elk hunting, the boy got excited & shot a bit quick! (grin)

ElkNut1

[pd]

That's a great video, Paul. While I am sorry for your grandson, I know he will have many, many years of hunting with his family to make up for the shot. Thanks for posting that, because it really helps explain what you have taught us here.

[Toby]

Paul, thanks for including that video, spectacular. Just reading what you did to get your grandson a shot at that bull is a great lesson for all if us. What an experience to share with your son and grandson.

[ElkNut1]

Thanks, it was a ton of fun for sure! You probably noticed that I didn't have a favorite technique when you asked which I preferred? The reason I do not is because I do not stero-type every bull into going for the same method that may have worked on other bulls. For instance-- If I would have cow called that bull & he responded like he did & then challenged him & he shut down completely I would lose the bugle entirely & go back to the cow calling & head his way once I felt he was deep enough into the cover to continue working him. We would have still had a great chance on him with that maneuver as well. Let's say the opposite was true & he would only respond to the bugling & was getting fired up but no response to the cow calling? Then I would have stayed with the bugling & went at him quickly because this shows he's getting irritated with my presence. I most likely would have rte-positioned & come in from his side instead of under him. I may have panted then screamed or something of that nature & that would have been a better choice due to he situation.

Let's say we followed that same bull & he wouldn't respond to anything! Then we would have hustled up towards him as close as we dared again from his side but do everything to get within 60yds & start raking on a 7-out of a 10 scale with pants & groans only, no bugles! We would be drawing on his curiosity big time & have a great chance at a visual as he comes over to size us up. Of course there's always trying to slip in silently but so much is depending on cover & his attitude! So, no favorites just a willingness to adapt to a present encounter! Hope this helps!

ElkNut1

[Toby]

The thing that stands out most here is when you mentioned repositioning and coming in from the side, I assume at the same level. I imagine that would be just enough to peak his curiosity and get his dander up a little. These are the gems that make reading these posts so important. I could hunt a lifetime and not think about doing some of them, but I will now, thanks.

[ElkNut1]

Yes, coming in from his side or a hair below him & from the side (wind determines which side) is a bold move & puts serious pressure on the herd bull now but still gives him leverage advantage in his mind, this is especially effective if you re-position give a couple good cow whines & start raking a tree right there close, bulls can see red in a heartbeat when they feel an intruder bull is now displaying for one or more of his cows. Just a few little tricks to use at just the right time. -- This Forum has lots of great guys to help aid us all in taking our elk hunting to the next level, the killing level! (grin)

ElkNut1