First bow, need advice and validation please

[RichM]

I'm getting a 2012 Hoyt Vector Turbo 60-70 pound bow from the local shop, I got a fair deal on the package. I'm hoping that it is a good bow for hunting deer and elk if I do my part and also choose a good arrow. Did I do ok? (that's the validation part).

Now the advice part: I've been reading up on the net about what broadhead and such to use. I have got in my head that the following combination would suit me well.

G5 Striker or QAD Exodus (I like the idea of a fixed 3 blade for the compromise between accuracy, penetration and damage)
400 or 340 stiffness carbon shaft, Easton FMJ?
4-5 inch offset vanes (maybe feathers?)
Try to keep as close to 400 grain total arrow weight as possible and crank the bow up to 275 fps or higher if I can comfortably draw and hold.

Does that should about right for an effective and accurate hunting arrow for Elk and Mule deer? or am I kidding myself?

I plan on putting in for a deer (white tail or mule) bow hunt in NM unit 34 with a friend and more to use it as an excuse to scout the area since we are also putting in for an elk rifle hunt later in the season. But I sure wouldn't mind having to buy a bigger freezer for deer and elk meat.

Thanks
Rich

[jmez]

Need to know your arrow length for a recommendation on the spine, 340 vs 400, and what draw weight you pland to shoot.

The bow is more than adequate and they shoot well. Either BH you picked will work. I would use a 125gr model to add more weight to the front of your arrow. Use vanes, not feathers. Feathers work well but aren't real durable, they need to be protected and kept dry. Vanes are just one less thing to worry about. I would put them on with a helical as apposed to offset. 4 inch is more than adequate.

My recommendation would be go no less than 400gr for arrow weight. There really are no rules for arrow weight but I prefer heavy. They should retain energy better at longer distances and will hit harder. They also will quiet the bow at the shot. My current arrows weight 485gr and I'm experimenting with some just under 500. They aren't as fast but I'm not concerned with speed.

[Toby]

You got good advice from jmez, I agree with all he said. For fletchings, you could look at 2" blazers or other high profile vanes. They give as good of stabilization as the 4" and they are lighter in weight, putting more weight in the front of the arrow, which is better.

[Swede]

I think your bow should be great. My arrows are 425 gr. I have no problem with them killing elk. You did not say which rest you bought. If it is a Whisker Biscuit, I would choose the 2 inch blazers as Toby suggested. If you got a drop away then the vanes or blazers are fine. I prefer the vanes. For an arrow under 500 grains total weight, you should be able to tune your set up with 4 inch vanes very well.

[RichM]

jmez, Currently the draw weight is all the way down to 55 lbs and it has a draw length of 28.5 inches (if I remember correctly)
I don't remember the arrow length.
I am thinking about dropping the draw length 1/2inch if the cam will allow to see if I'm more comfortable and consistent. The plan is to get used to about 60-65 lbs of draw weight by hunting season. I have the bow as low as I can so I can get used to it and work on my consistency. Then my plan is to work up in weight until I get a comfortable with enough draw weight to have a fair chance for an ethical kill. I need to work on my accuracy and consistency, right now I'm lucky to group the arrows in an 8 inch circle at 20 yards.

Swede, the rest is a Whisker Biscuit. It seemed a little more newb proof than a drop away, and cheaper.

Thanks for the advice and information. I'm looking into the blazer vanes.

[ctdad]

Two ways I like to measure for draw length. 1. Measure your wing span finger tip to tip. Divide this number by 2.5.
2. Extend your left arm (assuming right handed) straight out to the side. Measure from your sternum to the crease in your left wrist.

If these numbers are different, the second is probably closer to accurate for most and some seem to lie in between the two. Most I measure are the same or within half an inch. Getting proper draw length is critical. Most tend to shoot a draw that is too long when starting out. I did for fifteen years.

Yes Hoyt draw length is adjustable as long as your shop has the mods.

[husky390]

If you have a #3 RKT cam, you should be able to drop down to 28" with the correct module. Your bow shop should be able to help you out.

http://www.hoyt.com/assets/tune_charts/ ... -Turbo.pdf

[JJ Overkill]

I ran your numbers on OT2 (its an arrow selection software, in case you don't know of it) ive found it to be really accurate.

draw weight 65#
draw length 28.5"
arrow length 27.5" ( 1" shorter than DL is my preference)
125gr field point
three blazer vanes
fmj gun metal 300 spine is what OT2 calls for on your setup. its a touch stiff but not much.

calculated speed 268 fps
total arrow weight 476.7
FOC 12.84%
KE 76.01

OPTION # 2

gold tip kinetic 300xt
272 fps
460.8 grs
14.84 foc
75.97 ke

I hope this helps ya out a bit. if you drop down to 28" dl I can run your numbers again

[jmez]

At your draw length I would go with a 340 in the FMJ.

[RichM]

Here are more accurate details of the bow and arrows I'm currently shooting
Draw length is 27" (#2 cam, rk2c module)
Draw weight is set at 55 lbs, but that will change this weekend
Currently my target arrow is a Easton Carbon Storm 400 cut to 26 1/2" and I think a 125 grain field point straight fletched with xpv vanes aluminum insert and the stock Easton nock. (it's what the shop suggested when I first piked out the bow)

Thanks for the replies and information jmez, JJ, husky, Swede, Toby and ctdad.

[RichM]

This is more to help me keep things straight now.
I managed to chronograph and weigh an arrow today, also managed to split a nock at the range.
So the bow is set to 60lbs draw weight now.
Arrow weight with 100 grain field tip (I was wrong in my last post) is 371 grains per an RCBS 502 balance scale.

The arrow was a consistent 267fps (calculates out to 58.6 lb-ft kinetic energy), which should be sufficient on deer if I can do my part keeping with a good 100 grain fixed broadhead. But, what about elk?
If I increase the draw weight much more, would it be recommended to go with a 340 spine shaft?
Would going to a 125 broadhead and 340 spine be considered by many as silly on deer but not enough on elk?

For prosperity (or so I have it all in one easy place, thanks elknut) the details as far as I can determine on the arrow:

Easton Carbon Storm 400 (8.9 grain/inch)
Easton CB insert (21 grains)
Easton Super Nock (13 grains)
Easton 2" XPV fletching (?? grains)
Generic field point (100 grains)
carbon to carbon length 26 1/2 inch
27" draw 2012 Hoyt Vector Turbo currently set at 60lbs, Whisker Biscuit rest, True-ball release, Tru-Glow 5 pin sight

Did I miss anything?
Oh, Thanks for your thoughts and opinions.
Rich

[JJ Overkill]

I ran your numbers on, On Target 2. heres what I came up with using your numbers.
370.9 grains total calculated
273.63 fps calculated ( I wonder why this is faster than what you shot, how much weight is on your string. IE peep sight, dampeners, D-loop )
your vanes are 5grs each from what I found

a .400 spine is just a touch soft. optimum spine is a .3782 so your not that far off. still safe to shoot.

now if you go to a 125gr head and get up to 65#s you will have to go to a 340 spine. if you use the same arrow but in a 340 spine heres what your numbers could look like. the 340s are 9.5 gpi

I ran your numbers 2x and have some small variances.

421.7--425.7 total arrow weight
268.13--266.91 FPS
67.25--67.27 KE
by the way the optimum spine for this second setup is .3407 a 340 fit perfect.

I discovered that the storm arrows are a renamed st epic by Easton. if and when you shoot through a crono let me know what the speed was so I can compare it to my program.
thanks

[pointysticks]

I would go 300 spine. New bows are just more aggressive than old bows. What was great for yesterday's 70 lb bow isn't stiff enough for today's 70.

I like FFP 3" vanes. Very tough. I like wraps as well

Welcome to the madness.

[JJ Overkill]

I would go 300 spine. New bows are just more aggressive than old bows. What was great for yesterday's 70 lb bow isn't stiff enough for today's 70.

why? a 300 would way to stiff for his setup, if he gets up to 70# with a 125gr head than a 300 would work. his cams aren't that aggressive. plus his arrow is only 26 1/2" long that makes it plenty stiff as is and he has a shorter DL only drawing 60#s for the time being. @ 70# with a125gr head his optimum spine is .3223 a 340 would still be safe to shoot. a 300 is just a touch stiff. with 3" vanes and a wrap a 340 would work great with the extra weight on the back of the arrow @ 70#s and a 125gr head.

[pointysticks]

i read he is 28". we shooting a super short arrow? hmm...340" then.

just so we know. i like a sharp broadhead way ahead of my hand. i'm a 28" DL and i shoot a 28.5 arrow. i'm not chasing a light shaft or anything. safety first for me. i just like a long arrow. no logic besides that. my bullheads, i am shooting a full length shaft. something like 32" it is waaaaaayyy out there.

i'm overspined.

gave me pletny of adjustment to add weight up front in the form of inserts...i just think overspined is very forgiving for fixed broadheads.

my last bow, everything told me to shoot a 340. i took that GT note to move one arrow to the right..and i did. fixed everything.

[JJ Overkill]

I get what your saying pointy. I don't have the luxury of going 1/2" longer than my DL. they don't make arrows stiff enough with the weight I want to put up front. I shoot a 30"dl and shoot a 28 1/2" arrow. I run a 50gr insert and a 200gr head out of an 80# bow. I need a shorter arrow to stiffen it up to where im safe on spine. yes I trust OT2 to setup my optimum spine. even with what im running my arrow is still on the stiffer side of the chart on OT2

[ctdad]

What is the down side to too stiff?

[JJ Overkill]

to stiff is hard to tune as is to soft. if you shoot an arrow that's really stiff into a block type target you will notice your nock will always be pointing to the right. you will also see this when paper tuning. to soft is just the opposite nock left tear in paper. this is the one I avoid at all cost. id rather see a to stiff tear than a soft tear. im scared of them. im not saying you cant tune an arrow that is either soft or stiff if there within reason. say your optimum spine is .325 an 350spine arrow and a 300 spine would both tune just fine. the softer 350 spine would still be considered safe to shoot. its more apearent when you start to reach the limits of an arrow. hope this makes sense.

[ctdad]

I'm not sure that shooting a stiff spine into a firm target will always result in nock right results. Do you mean it will likely do this until you correct your center shot? Some pretty competitive high level archers who are also hunters are advocates of going with the stiffest spine made. I have read a number of explanations on forums telling me that too stiff is harder to tune for b/c the arrow doesn't flex the "correct" amount and therefore is less forgiving. That seems reasonable to me in theory. I've used some pretty stiff spines and been very pleased with the way they shot and tuned.

On the other hand, I find a lot of arrow spine charts recommend a much lower spine than I think is ideal. However, lots of other archers have discovered and pointed out this fact for years.

[jmez]

IMO the whole spine issue is way overblown. All of these computer programs pretty much recommend a stiffer arrow than the arrow company recommends. The common sentiment is that the charts weren't made with today's bows in mind. I'm going to go out on a limb and say the engineers at Easton, GT, Victory Archery, etc etc etc are very familiar with today's bows. I'm guessing they also do in house testing with their arrows shot out of today's bows. They aren't intentionally releasing dated and misleading information.

I don't think there is any such thing as too stiff or overspined. I think "underspined" gets the blame for a lot of shooting form errors. I know the programs would say my current arrows are underspined. The programs did say my former arrows were underspined. Yet it was easy to get bullet holes with both bare shafts and fletched. Also bare shaft tuned to the same POI at twenty yards. My broadheads are accurate and with FP's out to 60 yards, as far as I've shot them. I think just about all left tears are the result of grip torque and its easy to blame an arrow.

[pointysticks]

if i were to follow any one pro hunter blindly, it would be Randy Ulmer.

in a recent online talk, he said he starts with the stiffest arrow he can find and will try to approach bow tune from that direction. essentially, you cannot have too stiff of a spine.

dunno. i need to try to find the interview.

[JJ Overkill]

put a 200 gold tip BG in your bows and try to tune it. its one of the stiffest arrows I can find. lets put this theory to the test. the 200 BG is what im running in my omen, 50gr insert 200gr broad head. and I cut them down to 28 1/2" to get them to be stiff enough for this setup. if its the stiffest arrow you want get the GT200BG. the total arrow weight is 612grs anybody want to talk about putting the arc back into archery

[RichM]

Sometime in the next few days I hope to get to the local shop/range (The Archery Shoppe in ABQ, NM) and get some tuning done so I hope to try some stiffer spines. I also picked up some 125 grain field tips to try on the 400 spine Eatons.
The last time I was at the range the guys at the shop spotted that my timing was out and adjusted that, the fletching was striking the riser just past the rest (whisker biscuit). I now have all right offset blazer vaned arrows and non of the XPV fletched left.

And lastly, the bow is now set for about 65# draw and I'm getting 280-279 fps with the following setup;

Easton Carbon Storm 400 (8.9 grain/inch)
Easton CB insert (21 grains)
Easton Super Nock (13 grains)
Blazer 2" fletching (6 grains) right offset
Generic field point (100 grains)
carbon to carbon length 26 1/2 inch
27" DL, 2012 Hoyt Vector Turbo, DW 65lbs, Whisker Biscuit rest

I need to concentrate on my form a lot more. I'm pretty set on going with the striker 100 grain broadheads on these shafts if they hold out till deer season in September.
If I draw for elk next year (2015) I think I'll go with the 125 grain G5 Strikers and have to go with a 340 spine shaft. But I have time.