Margin of aiming error?

[Toby]

On a broadside shot, let's say at an average size bull, what is the vertical margin of aiming error? Let's say you are aiming right in the center of the sweet spot, but your yardage estimate is off a bit. Can you hit 3", 4", 5" high or low and still get a quick kill?

[Indian Summer]

I'd say about 5 inches right or left and maybe 6 inches down & 10 inches up from where I aim will keep you in the lungs. That's a guess. Here's a very good pic of what you have to work with on a broadside angle.

[Indian Summer]

Here's an interesting read from the IBEP: http://www.dundeesportsmansclub.com/dun ... cement.pdf

[Toby]

Here's an interesting read from the IBEP: http://www.dundeesportsmansclub.com/dun ... cement.pdf

This is very good info. Thanks for sharing.

[Trophyhill]

To me there is no margin of error. Guys should be able to pinpoint the shot when the pressure is on. When you can do this you either see or hear the animal go down! As an example on a bull I killed a couple years ago, I had a broadside shot where I had a tiny window thru the juniper tangle to shoot thru. My margin of error was zilch to take out the lungs. Had I been off 2" the shot may have ended up as a lost elk thread.

[ctdad]

I think the question here is how big of diameter is the lethal kill zone? Obviously that varies with shot angles but there is plenty of room for error on an elk. Hitting both lungs four inches from my aiming point is still hitting both lungs. If there was zero margin of error in hunting shots then most of us would have very low kill percentages. Pro shooters aiming at x's for a living in controlled environments at known distances don't always hit the x.

[Toby]

Ctdad,

Asking the diameter of the kill zone would have been a better question, that is what I was trying to get at. I know that with my bow speed that if I sight my single pin in at 30 yards, that I will be no more than 5" high at any distance from 30-0 yards, with the highest point being about 20 yards and 5" high. 40 yards, with the pin set ay 30 would impact about 11"s low. I am just trying to simplify the distance judging/aiming process for those close in opportunities where a bull my be closing fast and there isn't time to use a rangefinder.

[ctdad]

Toby, we are on the same page here.

[LckyTylr]

Toby, does your single-pin sight have a slider adjustment on it or is it fixed at 30?

Any comments on why you chose a single pin sight for Elk hunting? Just curious, not digging, everyone has their preferred equipment. I have a 5-pin, so pins at every 10 yards from 20 - 60.

[Fridaythe13th]

I might be crazy. when I practice I need to be in a paper plate. At 60 yards I could hit a paper plate all day long, when I went to 70 yards a hole different story I new a elk at 70 yrd was not for me. But make sure you can wreck arrow at 20 & 30 yrd

[Toby]

ctdad, yes we are thinking alike.

Lefty, yes, mine is a slider, so given time I can move it. But as you know, things happen very fast, especially when running and gunning.

I have used a single pin slider for a very long time, like the clear, unobstructed view of the target. I am primarily a whitetail Hunter so have kind of stuck what I am used to. I have considered going to multiple pins but so far have resisted. I practice a lot, but still would be very meticulous at getting the yardage and pin set if I were to take a shot at an elk at 40-50 yards. I would make sure I had ranged the yardage and set my pin to that yardage and had a very calm target. I think I am more accurate doing it this way at in between yardage like let's say 45 yards, then shooting in between my 40 and 50 yards pins. If they are that far out, everything has to be perfect. If I have to pass, so be it, I don't mind waiting for another opportunity.

But, this is just me, lots of guys are very comfortable with multipins.

[elkmtngear]

I might be crazy. when I practice I need to be in a paper plate. At 60 yards I could hit a paper plate all day long, when I went to 70 yards a hole different story I new a elk at 70 yrd was not for me. But make sure you can wreck arrow at 20 & 30 yrd

Not crazy. The paper plate reference is an old one for a broadside shot, but it's pretty darn close if centered behind the shoulder, to the area that is lethal on elk.

[archery bum]

I can also hit a paper plate at 60 yards the majority of the time with fixed broadheads. But on occasion I'm still known too pull a shot every now and then and be just outside of the plate. Sorry I'm not a perfect shot every time.

[ishy]

It depends on remembering what to do when the antlers show up. I know guys with multi pins that freeze up and shoot the wrong pin, then the single pin guy ranges the elk and watches him walk several more yards and keeps his pin on the original distance...tricks keeping head straight when the moment of truth arrives.

[ctdad]

I work hard on my shooting form to minimize missing horizontally (left and right). The vertical misses aren't as concerning to me. If I aim at the center of the vitals on an elk and miss high or low 4-5 inches, I will still be in the kill zone. Left or right misses are where I worry about arrows in the gut or scapula and not killing or finding an elk. Not that there is no room for error laterally, but I always feel like there is less room for error horizontally than vertically.

I've read that a typical elk is 28-30 inches from the bottom of the chest to the top of the back at the withers. I would guesstimate that 60% of that space is in the thoracic cavity. That's almost 17 inches of kill zone vertically. If I aim for the middle of that, my miss 5 inches high or low should still end in a dead elk. Are these numbers off?

[Toby]

It depends on remembering what to do when the antlers show up. I know guys with multi pins that freeze up and shoot the wrong pin, then the single pin guy ranges the elk and watches him walk several more yards and keeps his pin on the original distance...tricks keeping head straight when the moment of truth arrives.

Exactly why one must shoot what they are comfortable/confident with.

[Toby]

I work hard on my shooting form to minimize missing horizontally (left and right). The vertical misses aren't as concerning to me. If I aim at the center of the vitals on an elk and miss high or low 4-5 inches, I will still be in the kill zone. Left or right misses are where I worry about arrows in the gut or scapula and not killing or finding an elk. Not that there is no room for error laterally, but I always feel like there is less room for error horizontally than vertically.

I've read that a typical elk is 28-30 inches from the bottom of the chest to the top of the back at the withers. I would guesstimate that 60% of that space is in the thoracic cavity. That's almost 17 inches of kill zone vertically. If I aim for the middle of that, my miss 5 inches high or low should still end in a dead elk. Are these numbers off?

This is the kind of thinking I strive to understand. Knowing how changes in distance to the target affect point of impact with my bow. If I range the distance at 41 yards, I don't have to have my single pin set at 41 yards to make a killing shot. Obviously, as the distance to the target increases one must be more precise with the pin placement, but distance usually allows more time to range and set/select the pin.

[ctdad]

This is the kind of thinking I strive to understand. Knowing how changes in distance to the target affect point of impact with my bow. If I range the distance at 41 yards, I don't have to have my single pin set at 41 yards to make a killing shot. Obviously, as the distance to the target increases one must be more precise with the pin placement, but distance usually allows more time to range and set/select the pin.

This just goes back to your other comment about having confidence and comfort in your equipment. I've shot a 7 pin sight for a few years. If the target is 53 yards, I know that my fifty yard pin needs to be slightly higher than my expected POI. I also have the sixty yard pin as a reference to know roughly how far of a hold over to use. I'm sure your comfort with a single pin is similar.

There is a little device called the dead-on range finder that uses a form of pin gapping to help you quickly range animals while at full draw that I keep on my sights. I prefer a laser range finder but sometimes situations develop too quickly.

[Toby]

I remember seeing something like the dead on range finder many years ago, good idea.

I have shot recurves and longbows a lot so I am kind of used to gapping.

[Trophyhill]

Knowing elk anatomy is a must but I'd be very cautious for those willing to use the "if I am somewhere in the 18" zone I'm fine" train of thought;)

[Triplebhunters]

Don't mean to jump this thread, but I'm reading a lot on the multi pin sights.

When you are focused on your shot all of your pins will(should) disappear. You have lots of time to practice this routine.

Looking forward to the Cold Shot season this year.

Dave

[Toby]

Triple,

Could you explain the disappearance of the pins a little more, I am curious.

Toby

[Triplebhunters]

Sure will try. The theory behind this is if your pins are blocking your target your not focusing on your target hard enough. Basically shooting with both eyes open. Was very difficult to learn, escpeciallly my eyes are aging. I'm right handed and right eye dominate. Watch your target calculating distance as you draw counting or reciting however you learned form. Focus on target only, aim. I squint my left eye. Try this on five yard target first, call me every name in the book, but do it for a month and you will love it.

[Toby]

You know, I have tried this many times because I think there are many advantages as you mentioned, but have always given up. I'm going to give it another try, probably need to squint a little as you do, otherwise my left non-dominat eye wants to take over.
Thanks for clarifying.
Toby

[Gypsumreaper]

My dad taught me the 2 eye open shooting technique. He used to "1" eye it with everything. Then one year rifle hunting he rolled over pulle down an all he seem was hair in the scope.... Scope was turned up to high for the close shot so he pulled off for a second to make sure it wasn't a doe, looked down an he was gone. After that he taught me to shoot rifle, bow even open sights with both eyes open. For me this has done a lot it seems as I can see the target in my left eye an somewhat the crosshairs or pin on it as well in a bigger picture. It for sound weird but I guess ur brain uses both images and puts them both together in both eyes, ur left eye, distance and ur crosshairs or pins, right eye is close up and crosshairs. I also find it helps me to follow the shot or arrow and I don't have to search as much for the animal in the scope or peep.

[Gypsumreaper]

O and I know it feels weird like Toby said his less dominant eye wants to take over and in a way you have to let it happen somewhat

[Olydog09]

I work hard on my shooting form to minimize missing horizontally (left and right). The vertical misses aren't as concerning to me. If I aim at the center of the vitals on an elk and miss high or low 4-5 inches, I will still be in the kill zone. Left or right misses are where I worry about arrows in the gut or scapula and not killing or finding an elk. Not that there is no room for error laterally, but I always feel like there is less room for error horizontally than vertically.

I've read that a typical elk is 28-30 inches from the bottom of the chest to the top of the back at the withers. I would guesstimate that 60% of that space is in the thoracic cavity. That's almost 17 inches of kill zone vertically. If I aim for the middle of that, my miss 5 inches high or low should still end in a dead elk. Are these numbers off?

I agree with you 100%. When shooting broadheads I am always concentrating on having my horizontal within an inch or 2 of my point of aim out to 60 yards. Most form errors or contact issues will show up as horizontal misses. If I am consistent horizontally I know I am shooting good. I also think many people aim too close to the shoulder and account for a lot of lost elk because of it. (When Broadside)
I have hunted exclusively archery since 1990 and it took me a long time to get the rifle scope cross hair right behind the front shoulder mentality out of my head. I think most people start out rifle hunting and drill that shot. Then when they start archery they continue with it and end up hitting the shoulder a lot. Now I always aim 2-3 inches off of the shoulder for deer and a little more for elk.

[Toby]

A good "walk back tune" as most of you know really helps narrow the horizontal spread of arrows.

[ctdad]

I use a few tuning methods to get center shot set. I then broadhead tune through a kwik shooter. When I'm done with that I'll have broadheads and field points in same hole at forty yards through the kwik shooter. My focus after that is all me. The bow is not the problem when I have misses at that point

[Toby]

ctdad,

Can you describe a kiwi shooter, I'm not familiar with it.
Thanks
Toby

[ctdad]

Hooter shooter competitor. Shoot the bow with no human error. Half the price of hooter shooter.

[Toby]

Thanks, that's what I was thinking. Sounds like you have a nice set up for tuning.

[ctdad]

I bought the kwik shooter a year ago and I love it. I have ended up tuning a bunch of bows for friends with it. But what it did for me was allow myself to get out of my own head. When I'm shooting bad, I don't second guess my equipment any more. I used to do that all the time. It's allowed or maybe forced me to improve myself and minimize tinkering. My long range shooting has improved bc of it too