Advertising Bugles/Location Bugles -- What's the Differences

[ElkNut1]

We've all heard these two phrases many times. What are the difference's you listen for or try to imitate to represent one over the other? Both have their place in the elk's world!

ElkNut1

[stringunner]

I'll try...

I honestly don't know that I can say that I have ever heard a real "bull" (non-hunter) use location bugles. I think what I have heard are advertising bugles. A location bugle to me is saying "hello, where are you?" Where as an advertising bugle would be more like "hey, I'm here, answer back or come and find me." When hearing advertising bugles, I might also hear the bull raking a tree or....making other noises, not really intent on being quiet, simply just doing his thing, but definitely not threatening sounds. As for the differences in what they sound like in words, I can't type but I do think there is a distinctive sound difference when you hear them. I think a lot of hunters will use location sounding bugles vs. advertising bugles whether they know it or not. I think when the difference is known, advertising bugles perhaps are used more frequently with cold calling set ups.

[WapitiTalk1]

Location bugles are simply that, checking the area for other bulls. One to several notes announcing I'm here, who's out there? Advertising bugles (as string gunner alluded to) is just that. More often than not a posturing sound given in the presence of, or trying to impress the ladies. They may sound similar to location bugles but oftentimes, will possess more 'personality' and sounds like lip balls, groans, chuckles and even some added on 'non verbal' posturing noises like brush taking, pawing. That's my answer and I'm sticking with it.

[ElkNut1]

Stringunner, thanks! You have great thoughts there!

I was afraid guys would be a bit apprehensive about responding! Folks should remember there really are no wrong answers! (grin)

Here's some food for thought! Most Location bugles are done by the satellites! They are the ones without but looking for company! So remember this when using location bugles, sound like the real thing, a satellite! As cows show signs of estrus you will notice that lots of bugling happens at the same time, these bulls are advertising themselves, that means both satellites & herd bulls. Advertising bugles are the most popular sound in the woods come Sept! What are bulls advertising? Themselves! They want to be considered by the cows as possible breeders so they draw attention to themselves by bugling!

When advertising a product you must reach the customer by any means within ones grasp. Bulls do this by bugling with advertising type bugles! They are not looking for a fight they are looking for hot cows!

ElkNut1

[zpd307]

good to know! thanks. I just wish I could hear more bugles in the woods so I could understand the differences.

[Swede]

I can't say there is any difference in the sound. They are both a simple two or three pitched bugle without grunts. The one is just looking to locate other bulls in the area, while the advertising bugle is used to call cows.

[zpd307]

swede, i am confused. if there is no difference in sound, how would they be 2 different calls. i would think they would have to be different somehow. or is it the same call with two different meanings based on the situation? but then again i am still confused. because then a satellite bull would always be hearing other lonely bulls or vice versa a herd bull hearing all the other herd bulls with their cows. maybe i am overthinking this...

[Swede]

zpd307: In a way both are advertising calls. If I hear the sound in late August or early September, it is a location bugle. Later in September the same sound is an invitation. I think Elknut is trying to pull your chain. Lets see what he says. LOL

[msd1228]

maybe i am overthinking this...

I think this is the biggest plague amongst those of us who love to talk elk. As much as we all love to call and and learn the different sounds, personally, as well as among all of the successful elk hunters I'm friends with, there has never been a single instance ever were we heard a bugle and discussed whether it was an advertising or a location bugle. Scream v location? Sure. Bull call cows bugle vs location? Sure. Location v advertising? Well, if you can honestly tell me that you can tell the difference with any degree of accuracy and on a consistent basis then you are a better man than I and everyone else I know. They are one in the same as far as I'm concerned.

[Wyo67]

msd1228 said "...there has never been a single instance ever were we heard a bugle and discussed whether it was an advertising or a location bugle."

+1

There's only 3 things I can recall discussing with my partners regarding bugles. (1) Does he sound angry/annoyed with satellites. Should we try and sneak in quietly? Or call to him and try and bring him in? (2) Is he rounding up his cows? Meaning there will be more eyes and noses as you get closer, and best of all (3) "Get Ready! He's coming!!

[zpd307]

keep em coming....

[BrentLaBere]

I am basing what I have read on this site for my answer....just giving it a shot. I was in two situations so far that come to mind with bulls advertising themselves. Group of cows on a big bench, we could hear the cows/calves talking. Large herd bull constantly calling his cows to him while other bulls throughout the basin would answer after the herd bull would call these cows. They would typically give that location type bugle.....but I think they would add the pitch, tone and intensity to it trying to show off to the ladies while letting them know where they were. This is early September so I am thinking most of these bulls want the cows to come to them and are just gearing up for the main event. Those elk were aware of the others presence and wanted to let the others know who they were, besides showing where they were. Identity.
Reasons advertising works after locating elk? They don't recognize your pitch tone and intensity. Who was that? I know where he is, so I will go check him out type thing. Especially receiving a challenge after advertising(something different altogether). A bull that has his domain threatened by another trying to show off to ladies is a threat if close enough to the rut and his bedroom.
I have heard of a few other trying this and its making more sense. Making contact with a location and then hitting them again to understand if they answered as a young satellite/spike or is it a bull letting you know you crossed his area. Test him again with some pitch tone and intensity. He answers, you know you have a bull willing to play

Just a thought

[ElkNut1]

Lots of great info & thoughts! It is much simpler to tell Location & Advertising Bugles apart than most think, it's only as complicated as you make it! (grin) Location Bugles are used now & then so to speak with not much intensity to them, although other sounds can be heard with them such as low chuckling or groans. Advertising bugles are used in a more persistent fashion given many times throughout a short period of time as they Yearn for cows that they've heard, seen or smelled! Location bugles are generally heard from lone bulls.

As I mentioned above Advertising Bugles are the most common bugles heard throughout the woods in Sept & Oct. They are used repetitiously as they send out their message of want & desire.

Guys think back during some of your past encounters with bulls & had a bull respond to your cow calls, what was he doing? Location bugle? Not likely, he was letting you know of his interest & inviting you over to him, he's advertising himself to you so to speak. Yes, you could say he's giving you his location & he is but not with a Location bugle as he already know you are there! So instead he wants you meeting up with him so he calls to you to join him, doesn't matter if it's a satellite or herd bull. If ever in doubt of which are you hearing stick with a cow call as your odds are very good you will receive a response & it will fit either situation!

Here's another quick example of Advertising Bugles. --- You come over a high ridge & hear 3 bulls bugling away in a basin. Most likely you are hearing bulls Advertising or representing themselves to possible hot cows that are there in the area. Cows will choose the bulls that will breed them so these bulls do their best impression of representing strength & dominance as possible breeders to the cows, cows will head towards the ones that suit them & consider them as possible breeders when the time comes to breed them. In this situation there is a bull with cows (herd bull) & 2 satellites desiring these cows so the 2 bulls are Advertising their strengths to the cows in an effort to pull some away from the herd!

Understanding elk sounds is a process & fun, given a little time in the elkwoods with respectable instruction & you'll conqueror it no time, much quicker that learning golf! (grin) Keep it simple & don't over think it as some have mentioned!

ElkNut1

[ctdad]

How would my approach to these sounds differ between the two? Should I respond or react differently bc it is a locator vs an advertising bugle?

[ElkNut1]

I wouldn't doing anything too different if I were after ANY Bull! Go to them as they are desiring, cow calling can be effective to get you close! If a satellite is giving the location bugle stay with the cow calling as you head towards him but watch for him coming your way too!

If a herd bull is your target then the cow calling can work well as it can allow you to go right to him as he is asking you to. It doesn't like leaving his herd too far back to pick up a lone cow so you need to go just about all the way to him. Things can take a twist if not enough cover to do so or wind isn't right for your approach & kill shot. You may have to hang back & lure him across a small opening or other as you inject a bull challenge once he answers your cow calls from being on top of him now. Lots of things can come into play as terrain features can vary or there's other elk to get past to get to the bull. At times we must get creative! (grin) Lots of ways to take advantage of that situation.

ElkNut1

[WapitiTalk1]

How would my approach to these sounds differ between the two? Should I respond or react differently bc it is a locator vs an advertising bugle?

Day late and a dollar short as usual (I see Elknut has already chimed in). OK, this is what I was working on

Depends on the bull’s situation (cowed up and/or positive ID there are cows in the area), bulls to cow ratio in the area (competition high or minimal), time of the rut (more location bugles heard early in the season, and later as the rut progresses and the cows are coming into estrus, as Elknut mentioned, are mostly advertising bugles), and ultimately, Bullwinkle’s frame of mind and his desires I suppose at the time he’s sounding off. A bull responding to my locator early in the season, or, sounding off on his own with locators gets my attention for sure but I will work him differently than I would later in the season. I try to pinpoint his location, get as close as possible, and see if he wants to have a cow visitor (me). As many here can attest to (depending on the area you hunt I suppose), satellites will crash in to your location bugles early in the season but that is rare. If they come in, it may be in stealth mode so be cautious when moving/setting up. Later in the season when I’m quite sure the bulls are advertising, I’ll let him call me in. I use a series of cow sounds strategically placed along my travel route on my way to him. Once in close, within 100 yards, I’ll set up, continue with the sultry cow calls and step it up if he won’t dislodge/come in by using some bull sounds in conjunction with the cow noises to create a scenario in the bull’s mind that I have something, or, have taken something he used to have (cow).

[Swede]

Sometimes you get a response to a location bugle with a like bugle. If you are hunting as a team, your partner can slip in close, and try to get a shot, while you the caller bugles just enough so that the shooter can home in on the bull. For me this has worked much better in theory than in practice. It seems something always goes wrong, including the time my son slipped in on Stringunner and friends when one of them was the "bull".

[ctdad]

I really enjoy these conversations and always learn a lot. My take away from this conversation is the following.

Whether or not I can be certain if a bull is doing a locator vs an advertising bugle, I will probably hunt him the say way. As phantom pointed out, the approach to how I hunt that bull is probably somewhat dependent on the time of year more than it is dependent on what the bull was saying.

I do think the more I can learn and understand about elk language, the better killer I will become. Also, as many veterans are quick to point out, I should keep it simple. So if I hear multiple "locators", then it is possibly more of an advertising bugle, but I will go to the bull and use cow calls to lure him in. If I hear individual "locators" then it is probably a bull looking for other elk (a true location bugle) and I'll go to the bull and use cow calls to lure him in. If advertising is going on, maybe I should expect the bull to be with other elk and possibly satellite bulls in the area as well so keep that in mind during the stalk portion.

Is this over simplifying or missing a bigger picture? I'm not trying to make this scenario fit into a box and I realize that hunting a living, breathing thing makes for a lot of "monkey wrenches", but again, I'm trying to tell myself what to do when I hear these sounds.

[ElkNut1]

ctdad, you are on the right track sir & keeping an open mind as to how a specific encounter can go south on us is very important in being a versatile elk hunter! -- Location Bugles are rarely given several times within 15 minutes, more like an hour or so apart. When hearing Advertising Bugles especially by more than one bull in the area there is generally some rutting action happening. (hot cow/cows) This is where the dates can help out from pre-rut to peak rut times! Nothing written in stone here so indicators are considered.

The main reason for discussions as this is to build knowledge, knowledge is power in the elkwoods. The more you can understand what's happening in the elkwoods during vocal times the better your odds of adapting to the present situation with good results in having a close encounter. It's not to confuse anyone but helping ones to become versatile hunters & not one or two dimension type hunters.

Too, understanding when & why bulls use an Advertising Bugle will open up new doors of creativity. This Adv. Bugle has proven to be very effective used by us when elk are quiet for one or several days in a row when little to no bugling or rutting is going on. Using it in a cold calling sequence with raking stomping & a variety of bull sounds (no cow sounds at all) you can create curiosity in the minds of bulls within earshot, this has brought many bulls our way over the years. They generally show up silent to check out this new kid on the block in their area! -- The reason it works so well is bulls know each other from spending their Summers together in their particular area, they know each other by sound, smell or sight, so when we show up with this New Bull Sound they wonder who we are, rut or no rut at that time of Sept. It is a golden technique & has put many elk on the ground when nothing else would! Again, versatility & adapting to each day can reap rewards along with a positive attitude!

ElkNut1

[Swede]

Guys, I would like to get your take on the following as I think many hunters have had experiences like I have had. I will share my interpretation as a point for discussion:

If I go out on "my" ridge overlooking grand canyon, and give out a location bugle, I may get a bugle in return. It does not matter if it is September 1 or September 21. The return bugle is just a location bugle. The bull is answering me. If I just stay there and bugle the bull will call back to me for an hour.

If I go out to that same place on either of those same days in September, and I just sit quietly, I may hear a bugle from down in the canyon. That too is likely a location bugle. I soon determine that by giving out a similar bugle and the conversation starts. If I am not close, there is no concern on his part and he just gives back location bugles. It is obvious to me that location bugles can be given at any time of the hunting season. The bull does not try to call me in, and he does not come to me. Sometimes I have been out and heard 5-6 bulls bugling at each other from widely separated locations. Again, it appears that these are just location bugles.

Very rarely is the bull visible to me when I hear him bugle. As a rule, I do not bugle at bulls I can see. Where I hunt the vast majority of the better bulls, are for all practical purposes, satellites. The determination of their bugle, as being a location or advertisement call, is made by what else he does, and by the time of the month. Sometime it is difficult to figure out just what a bull is trying to accomplish with his call. Is it likely that if he throws out a 'advertising bugle", and gets a distant bugle in return, that he just responds in kind? It appears that the bugle that likely was intended to advertise, was answered by a bull and actually became a location bugle. As a caller on a hillside in the timber, I do not know if he has cows, is looking for cows or is just checking out the neighborhood. Another part of the problem of bugle interpretation can be due to the distance between me and the bull(s). Sometimes I even get an elknut answering. What do you think?

[archery bum]

I think I'm with swede on this one. I just heard a bull bugle and give away his position and I'm on my way to intercept him if possible. If it was a location or advertising is irrelevant for me personally as I just want to see him and put an arrow in him if he is a legal bull. I would proceed in the same manner as if there might be other elk around (cows) once I got in close.

[ElkNut1]

swede, very good thoughts & questions as usual! Since you asked we'll break down your thoughts a bit & see what really is happening during some of your personal elk calling experiences. This deserves a response because those thoughts on bugling bulls is what most hunters encounter at one time or another during their yearly elk hunts.How we as hunters handle these specific situations will determine our success or not!

Location bugles are generally given by bulls on the move as they are in search of other elk, they rarely will stay in one spot with nothing there but themselves in hopes a cow will wander by. They can travel many miles until satisfied they've found what they were looking for. ---- Hearing bugles by a bull/bulls in one area does not denote Location Bugling, instead these are bulls bugling representing/advertising who they are as they look forward to the oncoming rut or the rut is on. When multiple bulls bugle they are trying to our roar or bugle their counterparts as if saying to cows within earshot, choose me! These bulls that are rooted to this area are there for a reason, they know there is a herd present with a herd bull they cannot whip so they stay off at a safe distance & do their best to advertise themselves in a manner that cows should consider them as possible breeders! They are trying to direct cows their way from this herd that is present. This is why it's very common for us hunters to stay in one spot & bugle & receive response without bulls coming to us or us going to them. They are not trying to fight they are trying to attract cows! These advertising bugles are the same ones you'd hear if trying to cow call a bull to you & he is responding by bugling/chuckling your cow calling.

This is a big reason satellites are easily killed every year & the herd bulls are harder to kill. When in that situation you described with bulls around & you slip in closer & cow call your odds are very high as long as you have good cover & wind direction that one or more of those satellites will hot foot it over to you in a competitive manner. The herd bull generally stays put as to not leave his cows unattended to head off & leave them to hook up one more! Instead the herd bull will hold his ground & try to bugle you over to his group!

When a single bull is staying in a vicinity or multiple bulls as well & they are bugling they are there as representatives of what they have to offer to the cows! In slower non rutting times which can happen anytime in Sept these bulls are not nearly as vocal so only an occasional bugle may be heard, such as one or two in an entire day of hunting! These are not necessarily location bugles but more of a feeling their oats as their testosterone levels rise & anticipate the oncoming rut or hot cows as it were. It's all about the cows come Sept!!!! This is why it's so important to have a full bag of tactics that allows us hunters to adapt to any situation & up our odds for a close encounter. When a bull bugles even only once the odds are good you can call him to bowrange if you cannot slip in on him silently, that's always an option but rarely pans out in timbered country, calling is generally a must at some point to seal the deal! Play on this single bugle you heard, get close as possible & allow his curiosity to get the best of him with nothing more than advertising yourself as a new bull in the area. Stay patient have good cover & wind & bingo, he will eventually show up to check out this bull who he does not know!

ElkNut1

[Swede]

Thanks Paul for an excellent explanation. I an sure I will file these things for future reference. I don't have any new questions here, so I am gone for the weekend.

[zpd307]

this subject is finally starting to become a little more clearer, thanks!