Why Does Bugling Get A Bad Rap?

[ElkNut1]

I was talking with a guy recently & he was interested in some products to start his elk calling career. He'd done calling in the past but on a very limited basis. He was told by many not to worry about owning a bugle as they just run bulls off & to only use cow calls. Of course I tried to reason with him on issues hunters do face & a few reasons why Bugling gets a bad rap. I will add I get this thought several times a week through emails or phone calls.

In your opinion what are some of the reasons you've experienced or heard as to why bugling should be left to the bulls? (grin)

ElkNut1

[tdirks]

I have a friend that lives about 20 miles from me here in south central Ks. that raises elk. He does not hunt elk but I have at times discussed elk behavior with him and observed the elk on his ranch. He has had elk for many years and has told me that if he was hunting he would never bugle! Now I realize there are probably many big differences between Elk in the wild and his elk, but probably some similarities also.

[Lark Bunting]

For me it's a confidence issue. I can produce many cow calls well, but I can also practice often. I practice in my truck, in the shower, while I am cleaning my garage, you name it. Bugling OTOH, I hurt my ears if I do it in my truck, my wife asked I "NEVER do that again" while in the house, and I am in suburbia hell and I'm guessing my neighbors wouldn't like me much if I did it off the back porch.

I want to get more practice and to get better at it so I will have to make time to practice.

Lastly, I need a bugle tube. My homemade efforts are proving more comical than helpful.

[Puttncut]

In areas of high hunting pressure, it can get a bit frustrating listening to all the noise and trying to decide if a bull just responded or was it another dude? I've been amazed at some hunters who NEVER stop buggling (all day long!) ...where do they get all that wind!? And I'm sure I've misjudged, letting elk walk because I just figured it was another hunter.

My very first hunt - on the last day - finally getting the courage to drop in "the hell hole" I had three or possibly four different bulls responding every single time I squeeled at them. I didn't have this encyclopedia of knowlege back then so I just blew away and listened to the responses until (after about 45 minutes) the wind shifted and it got REAL quite. But it made my first hunt a life-long memory that got me hooked on buggling bulls... BAD !

Second hunt, I squeeled at a vocal bull and he came in on a string. I didn't know THEN to drop 20-30 yrds. after I called (same excuse as above) but if I HAD, that 300+ would be on my wall. (shoulda woulda coulda)

As green as I am, I'd NEVER leave home without my bugle...and because of all this information now at my fingertips, this Sept. is going to be AWESOME!!

[ishy]

The group I sometimes hunt with would go entire seasons without bugling. I think thier justification was that they were after any bull and had the thought that bugling would chase any satelite off. They of course killed bulls, but I think they are missing a lot of oppurtunities. I just don't think its as realistic. You think about how many cows you've heard in september...now how many cows have you heard with no bull bugling in the area? Not very often I bet. I think bulls even if they don't come in aggresive to bugles are courious and want to see what's going on. My story of my favorite call in was a little 2x3 and that was all bugling. He came in like he was all that and a bag of chips.

[elk.addict]

The group I sometimes hunt with would go entire seasons without bugling. I think thier justification was that they were after any bull and had the thought that bugling would chase any satelite off. They of course killed bulls, but I think they are missing a lot of oppurtunities. I just don't think its as realistic. You think about how many cows you've heard in september...now how many cows have you heard with no bull bugling in the area? Not very often I bet. I think bulls even if they don't come in aggresive to bugles are courious and want to see what's going on. My story of my favorite call in was a little 2x3 and that was all bugling. He came in like he was all that and a bag of chips.

I've heard things like this too, but I've called in lots of satellite bulls with a bugle. In fact, I seem to be a satellite bull magnet It's the big bulls I have a hard time with.

[Trophyhill]

2 words. Timing and confidence or lack of both

[msd1228]

I think your post really contained the key - guys DO run the bulls off with bugling because they don't understand the differences between the bugles. I don't know how many times I've mentioned a locator bugle and had guys look at me like I had 2 heads - a bugle is a bugle in their eyes. Likewise, a challenge bugle (that they are unknowingly doing) is no different to them whether from 250 yards or 50 yards, and when the bull rounds up his cows and jets they blame the sound rather than their technique or method. I'd never hit the woods without my bugle. A good locator bugle, a solid challenge scream, and a good bulls calling cows bugle makes for some dang fun encounters!

[Wapiti]

Ok I'm going to put in my two cents here on this one.

Guys and Gals you need to think outside the box to be successful these days with elk. First off I'm lucky enough to live close to where I hunt so I can scout and check trail cams frequently.

That being said During the open season the bugle is my best friend and here is why. Night calling !! Do it and do it often in different areas to find vocal bulls !! When you find bugling bulls at night 10-11 pm you will find them first thing in the morning usually with in 200 yards of the night before location.

Now use your Ninja skills and sneak down in and sit and listen. If you hear nothing use your bugle tube and give a soft slow chuckle. Do it very quietly as you only want it heard for a hundred yards or so. Your not trying to alert the whole mountain. This should get a response out of the bulls.

Now when they give away there position sneak in more and when close enough as you dare give a cow call and in most cases the bull will come over for a look.

So you see without the bugle you wouldn't know where to start to begin with !! Plain and simple. Plus how are you going to locate any elk from a ridge top if you do not bugle to find them ?

I personally think this is where your practice comes in. Get good with reeds as they will let you add in voice deflection and sound different from any other elk call on the market. Be your own bull out there and make your own sounds and you will be heard !!

[Swede]

I have really soured on bugling as applied by most hunters in this day and age. Bugling has been way over sold as a sure fire way to get elk. As you know, there is and has been for years, people on a regular circuit promoting bugling. They blow their bugles and tell green horns why you should buy some, and oh by the way I have a pile of them here. It is not that I don't think bugles have their place, but they are not the magic trick that proponents claim. To be effective a hunter needs to know how and when to use them. Ten minutes of explanation in a one hour talk is not enough. It may be extreme, but I believe people should learn to bow hunt elk first, before they start bugling.
At least 90% of all the green horn elk bow hunters have a bugle to blow, and blow it they do. I see people every year that are only messing up an area by over calling. I have even observed hunters driving around and stopping their ATV or pickup and just getting off/out and bugle, then drive off. I have seen pickups stop and people in the front and people in the back start bugling.
I think the idea that "run and gun" is the best way to universally hunt elk is a natural part of bugling and just as wrong. Like the bugle itself, run and gun has its place and time. It is a technique that has to be properly learned. The problem I see is that Elknut makes run and gun sound like it is easy, and sure enough running around you see a lot of elk. Mostly just their rear ends are in full view, but the newbie sees more that anyone else so he thinks he is on the right track.
The bottom line here is that hunters have been sold on the idea that if they get this bugle, they will very soon be calling in bulls they can kill. They believe they can practice a little and just go. I know Elknut and this forum does not promote that. The better newbies try to learn by your DVDs and Playbook, but I have run into very few people in the woods that have ever heard of Elknut. Paul as you know, promoters and Mal-Wart can pass out bugles like Halloween candy, but have not made a hunter with Elknut's skill at using it. That is what gives "bugles" a bad name.

[cnelk]

In your opinion what are some of the reasons you've experienced or heard as to why bugling should be left to the bulls?

Success by using other calls. But I typically hunt early in the season

[JohnFitzgerald]

The commercialized sport of elk calling has giving bugling a bad name. We are made to believe that all you need to do is buy brand x bugle, blow it out in the woods a few times, and the elk will come running in. And when that doesn't work, two things happen. One, the hunter blames bugling and makes sure to tell others his experience. Or two, the hunter continues to blow it repeatedly because it works for "Will" so it should work for them. It's a doubled lung'er for either. The hunter not only misrepresents bugling to himself, but he also misrepresents it to others.

I guarantee that all successful buglers here on this forum bought into the commercialization at some point in their hunting career. But there was also a point in which they realized that there was something more to elk communication than just going out and blowing the brand x bugle. For me it was an encounter with a spike bull. After bumping him, he kept nervous grunting me. At that point I realized that their was more to elk calling and I needed to learn it. A few years later I came across ElkNut's material which lessened the learning curve.

Every year, we buglers, fight the commercialization stereotype that so many people have come to believe. But every year, we convince a few more that understanding the elk language is the core lesson before even picking up a bugle.

My 2-cents and worth nothing more.

[Swede]

I guarantee that all successful buglers here on this forum bought into the commercialization at some point in their hunting carrier. But there was also a point in which they realized that there was something more to elk communication than just going out and blowing the brand x bugle.

I agree, but the problem is that 90% of the bunglers get no elk. They are just bunglers. Oh I mean buglers.

[Heartwood]

I'm thinking back to the days before having the Elk Nut knowledge, when every season, i ran some bulls off with bugling. This, along with some elk calling "authorities" advising against bugling and i was down to just cow calling to call elk. There were seasons where i didn't carry a bugle tube at all.
That said, i always liked bugling because it's fun and sounds cool. The real reason that i was turning bulls away was a " timing issue" wrong call at the wrong time. Example, challenging a bull without knowing if he was a sat. or herd bull. Example, challenging a herd bull from to far away and leaving him a choice as to what to do. Example, using the wrong response to a bugle with grunts and just saying the same thing back to a bull (screaming match). I can remember being in the middle of a herd, say 70 yards from the herd bull and bugling only to see him leave with his cows. This to me was a pretty clear message not to bugle. I believe that back then, my bugles sounded pretty bad and unrealistic.
As others have said, confidence in the sound of your bugles and confidence that you are understanding what a bull is saying with his bugles and confidence that you are responding with the right call at the right time is soooo important to success. Without these skills, bugling is often counter productive. Knowledge is power and now many of us have the knowledge.

[Indian Summer]

One sentence out of Danny Moore's mouth and you'll be rethinking leaving the bugle at home. We mentioned him here last week. Kills his bulls or bulls every year and with NO COW CALL. Bugles only.

I think one of the main reasons people fail with bugles is because they bugle from the wrong place. From unrealistic locations such as on a road, 5 seconds after shutting down the 4 wheeler motor. Also when they are just too far away from elk. Yes you can get a bull to react to a long distance bugle but that's not hunting him. Once he responds I think it's best to shut up until you are in the zone really hunting him. Bugling multiple times while you close the distance isn't helping any. Bulls will go the other way if they think they need to, or they can with ease, to avoid a conflict. But if they think there's a competitor who is in their living room ready to cause a problem it's a whole other story.

To a huge degree I think the amount of pressure can be another factor. Sometimes just closer to a well used road is just not going to get the same results as being away from where a hunter is the highly likely the #1 source of a call. I know some really good places to find elk only 1/2 to 3/4 of a mile from the road and they are definitely more call shy. The kind of elk you're way better off trying to ambush or by hanging a stand. I've actually walked right past bulls bugling too close to the road knowing that like some spring turkeys who gobble their heads off in the dark hit the ground silent as soon as the sun comes up and so I felt it was smarter to go hunt other elk a little further in where I could call.

[msd1228]

One sentence out of Danny Moore's mouth and you'll be rethinking leaving the bugle at home. We mentioned him here last week. Kills his bulls or bulls every year and with NO COW CALL. Bugles only.

I wholeheartedly agree. Danny is unquestionably one of the most successful, if the THE most successful elk hunters alive today. He isn't shooting scrub bulls either; I know hes got bulls knocking on that 400" mark. That's not to say that everyone should subscribe to Danny's bugling only philosophy, but it would be silly to not take note of his style as well as to pick his brain a bit - the man is very willing to share his knowledge with others.

[>>>---WW---->]

The only ones that give bugling a bad rap are the ones that either can't do it, don't understand it, or try to over think it.

Glad you guys brought Danny up. I spent a month in Alaska with him.

[Swede]

The only ones that give bugling a bad rap are the ones that either can't do it, don't understand it, or try to over think it.

That's true, but it just happens to describe vast majority of the people carrying one.

[Glacier Country]

I think more guys cow call, because their bugle doesn't sound that realistic.They are just not confident with a bugle. How many of YOU are practicing your elk calling NOW?? This is the time of year when you as an elk hunter should be buying your calls and honing your calling skills. NOT in August. I will explain more on that in a different thread at a different time!
Elk hunting is hard! It usually takes several skills all wrapped together to become successful. Each of us posses different skill levels at the different tasks that make up each elk hunter. It would be very interesting to know of the 10% of guys who are successful elk hunters. What tactics worked the best... tree stands,ambush,just cow calls, bull calls or a combo of bull and cow sounds ,just spot and stalk or a combo of calls and stalking ? Knowledge of an area, and each individuals own experience, and an ability to identifying which skills they have are going to also determine what tactic,and or tactics might work best for them
.
Swede I am going to use you as an example...



Swede knows his area much more intimately than I know any of mine. He has stated he doesn't believe in the bugle in this day and age.... and so his tactics are different than mine.That is totally fine. Heck I would like to learn some of his tree stand tactics one day,but I get such a thrill out of calling the elk to me, for me by me,that I have not spent any time in a tree.
This is why... MY OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. My own evaluation of the elk hunting skills I Believe I have a handle on.
I KNOW I will locate and have multiple chances at bulls using a bugle. In areas I know very little about.Maybe I am wrong,but I think I could call in the bulls that are in Swede's area. Although, He might be right .... bugling/ calling might not be the best tactic in his area either... I don't mean to sound arrogant or to offend him... Let me explain. What I do know is that I don't have the tree stand skills he does ... so that might not be the best tactic for ME. I am just very confident in my calling ability and have honed that skill just as Swede has honed his tree stand skills. So in that sense calling might be a better tactic for ME.
I grew up listening to Danny Moore in his bow shop.So I use a lot of the same tactics as he does. He had a chart that guys who were successful would write the date the bull was killed and what calls used. Most said Bugle. That said I am sure some were intimidated and did not want to write cow sounds and hear Dan give them crap for using cow sounds! At this point I have called in hundreds upon hundreds of bulls with both bugles and cow sounds.I have called in bulls in the Missouri river breaks, where I hear guys say all the time it can't be done. It is harder there, no question about it. It can be done though.
I still rely more on the bugle. Maybe its from my background with Dan Moore? My elk hunting experiences have dictated what I do and will continue to do, in the areas I hunt and so will yours. If your bugles do not sound realistic, then you ARE way better off not using that tactic. On the same note if your grunts and chuckles do not sound realistic... that is a dead giveaway to us as hunters and to the real elk.

Confidence is a key! Realistic calls combined with solid tactics and experience do put elk in the freezer.

[Trophyhill]

The only ones that give bugling a bad rap are the ones that either can't do it, don't understand it, or try to over think it.

That's true, but it just happens to describe vast majority of the people carrying one.

I'd say that lumps them in with the hoochie mama crowd then huh?

[Swede]

I am sorry if I am hogging this thread, but I want to respond to Troy.
Friend, I think you are 100% right on target. I would agree that you, Travis, J.F., WW, cnelk, Elknut and some more here could call elk in my area. It is tough, and I would be amazed if more than one of you could ever real in a 350 class bull in a year. There are very few around, and they go to the ranch early in the season. I still call a little. I usually do it when it is cold, and or wet, and nothing is happening around my stands.
You guys are not the problem. I would venture to guess that you hunters could slip in, and call in elk and not run them off. You hunters are not giving calling a bad name. If I have a gripe about you (nothing personal here), it would be that everyone wants to be like you, have your success, but for one reason or more, just don't know how. They still have that bugle you sold them. they have read the Playbook twice, and they at least look the part of a Glacier Country bow hunter. Life is good.

[Trophyhill]

I'd like to respond to that if I may Swede. Last year Jeremy and I were hunting a heavily pressured OTC unit where you can hear every call imaginable. I'll let Jeremy tell his story and I think he already has but on September 2 a nice 5 point bull fell victim to his arrow when the bull came in to his well timed/placed bugle. 2 days later I used a bugle in conjunction with some cow calling to kill a small rag horn. Bugling works in the right situation and even calls small bulls in for those of us who aren't too picky. Point being that there are some of us just happy to kill any elk with what ever sounds bring them in, including bugling.

[tdirks]

Confidence?? Confidence can be severely misplaced! Timing and skill maybe. Confidence comes from results from skillful calling.

[ElkNut1]

One of the reasons hunters seem to shy away from bugling is because they start off with the wrong mindset right out of the gate! They feel once they receive a response that this bugling bull should come to them & when it doesn't & it happens multiple times they get frustrated & start feeling that most bulls are un-callable! They are quick to put the blame on the bugle & not themselves! This is a simple problem but very widespread.

ElkNut1

[Swede]

Trophyhill: Respectfully, the questions is "why does bugling get a bad rap?" No offence friend, I understand its use and appeal. It is always substantial.

[Swede]

Paul: Don't you think a part of the bad rap comes from hunters that get fairly close, but just can't close the deal? I think there are two parts of the "bad rap". One is from hunters that try and consistently fail, causing great frustration, and the other comes from the hunters that observe these unskilled callers driving elk onto private lands where they are inaccessible.

[JJ Overkill]

the one thing ive heard the most is, "bugling scares off small bulls" I love that. It usually puts a grin on my face. I try to explain that it doesn't scare off bulls. if it did why are herd bulls harassed by satellites bulls when cows are in season? most guys I know don't want to hear this which is fine by me. I don't have to worry about them bugling in my hunting areas

[ElkNut1]

Swede, just as many hunters fail when in close using cow calls too! (grin) Thing is when an encounter goes array with cow sounds being the dominant sound you don't hear near the fuss about them! Go figure!

Getting close, inside a 100yds is the magic distant. When this happens there's a very good chance an arrow is flying!

Jeremy, excellent point! (grin)

ElkNut1

[Swede]

Paul: I understand your point, but I was only focusing on the prime question about why bugling gets a bad rap. The truth is all of hunting gets a bad rap at times due to one reason or another. Cow calling is just as prone to problems as bugling I suppose, except it is not heard as far as the bugle. This has been a good conversation. I apologize if I have monopolized it some. Maybe I am more of a bugler than I want credit for.

[WapitiTalk1]

I was talking with a guy recently & he was interested in some products to start his elk calling career. He'd done calling in the past but on a very limited basis. He was told by many not to worry about owning a bugle as they just run bulls off & to only use cow calls. Of course I tried to reason with him on issues hunters do face & a few reasons why Bugling gets a bad rap. I will add I get this thought several times a week through emails or phone calls. In your opinion what are some of the reasons you've experienced or heard as to why bugling should be left to the bulls? (grin) ElkNut1

Why do poor (poor bad, not poor lack of bank account)/inexperienced contractors go out of business and/or are pushed out by the more experienced contractors due to lack of business? Kind of the same thing with elk calling.... inexperience and a minimal understanding of the market (terrain, hunting pressure, proximity to private "escape" lands), novice customer service (saying the wrong thing at the wrong time and not being cognizant of what the customers (elk) are saying/asking for) . Learn what the elk are saying/wanting/expressing, "learn" how to make realistic elk sounds at the right time (obviously when necessitated by the situation), so you're not "that guy" Just a few rambling Saturday evening thoughts. For those seeking to seriously learn elk language and how to respond, or, not respond as the situation dictates, I believe you're in the right place

[ElkNut1]

Swede, I understand what you're saying. I would say a hunters odds go up once they are very close to a bull, herd bull or satellite! It's the bulls that are over 300yds that hunters have issues with for the most part. Close is good, anything can happen when representing elk sounds when close to a bull or a herd! I'll take the close scenario every time! (grin) If I'm far away I do my best to get close quickly!

ElkNut1

[Indian Summer]

It's the bulls that are over 300yds that hunters have issues with for the most part.

ElkNut1

Exactly. I think it's hard for some people to resist getting bulls to respond. I realize it's addictive. It's fun in itself but a long distance conversation is doing more harm than good.. Every time a bull bugles you should have your ear pinned to him trying to pinpoint his location. Learn as much as possible from each bugle. Sometimes you only get one. If he's bugling on his own after that great. But if not there's no need to relocate from far away again. If you can't get a good bead on where he is.... he's too far. Cut the distance by as much as possible before calling again.

For the most part all wild animals are non-confrontational. I guess I'm repeating my last post: Given the chance they'll walk the other way. But if I sneak up behind you and yell boo your adrenaline will get going and you might turn around and take a swing! I'd rather risk getting too close than to bugle from far away and push them.

I think that's why bugling gets a bad rap. Too much of it is done from outside a bull's tolerance zone.

[Swede]

I would say a hunters odds go up once they are very close to a bull, herd bull or satellite! It's the bulls that are over 300yds that hunters have issues with for the most part. Close is good, anything can happen when representing elk sounds when close to a bull or a herd! I'll take the close scenario every time! (grin) If I'm far away I do my best to get close quickly!

No debate there, but it is irrelevant to the question you posed. No one has suggested anything different. I hypothesized that maybe bugling gets a worse rap than cow calling, because bugling is heard from longer distances. I certainly hear far more humans, bugling than cow calling, even though I believe there is approximately the same amount of both calls being made. That is just my personal observation, so I called it an hypotheses.

[ElkNut1]

swede, quite the contrary! My response is very appropriate to the title. Bugling gets a bad rap for countless reasons not just one. One of the reasons is as I stated above, guys call & expect bulls to come! When they do not come they do not know what to do next? So they call some more from the same general area or they start moving towards the vocal bull calling as they go trying to keep track of his location, in most cases this will work against the hunter & he doesn't get an opportunity at the bull. Instead the bull moves off & continually calls as he puts distance between himself & the hunter. The hunter needs to re-adjust his thinking & calling timing to reverse his most common outcome, failure! Threads like this can help in seeing their errors of their ways. It's not the Bugle Tube that is the issue here, it's hunter abuse of it!

If you are a terrible golfer is it because of you or your clubs? (grin)

ElkNut1

[Swede]

It's not the Bugle Tube that is the issue here, it's hunter abuse of it!

Exactly. The good news is that we can bugle and be effective with positive results if done the right way, at the right time, right place.

Thanks

[Swamp Buck]

Less than 10% will be successful on any given year. The other 90% need SOMETHING to blame... Think about how many so so hunters approach a bull with a bad set-up and blow the bugle, the bull runs off. Bugles fault or bad hunting?? It couldn't have been the hunter and the bad approach... had to be the bugle??

[dreamhunter]

You know I think it's all in your experience as a hunter.So many variables to consider here. Bugling can get a bad rap just like anything else can. I am a fairly new elk hunter ( 5 yrs now ).Every year I try to learn more and apply more of what I learn out in the field. It's getting better and I am experiencing more and more success as far as hearing,seeing,locating bulls.I have had no training other than Pauls book and cds, and dvd.I will say that what I am learning from him and his materials is key to the success I am having. I use a combination of cow calls and bugles making sure to NOT overdue it with either call. Trial and error has to have it's role until you get better at what needs to be made better.

[Wapiti]

Great thread guys !!

I have been thinking back on the last couple years and what worked best for calling in bulls.

1. On the odd occasion a locating bugle has brought in a bull for a look. But usually I have moved towards the bull that answered by about 100-150 yards and then hear him sneaking in to look. These are usually small sat bulls like 4 or 5 points. still great elk for eating but not what I'm after. But fun to watch and learn from.

2. Move in close and wait for the right moment and give a couple soft cow mews........This works real well on bulls that are working back and forth on a path and he will usually have 2-3 cows with him. These are the bulls that bugle all by themselves. They are calling to cows to say here we are come on over !! So getting close the bull will come and meet the ladies 9 times out of 10.

3. Get aggressive after you have moved in close. Here is where most fail including myself many times !! What is aggressive to you may not even be a challenge to a bull ! Most give what they think is a huge challenge bugle or rake a tree trying to get the bull worked up so he will come over. You'll most likely push the bull with his cows because you sound like a wimp !! What are you some kind of a girl or something !! LOL No offense ladies !!

If you've had the guts to move in on this bull while he has been bugling.....this is your moment to slap this bull in the face with the back of your hand and insult the crap out of him in front of his ladies !! So be LOUD and FIERCE and grab a big branch the size of a small tree and smash the crap out of a tree !! I mean smash that thing as hard as you can and don't stop till your branch has nothing left !! Stomp the ground and kick the dirt and roll around if you have to.....make noise !! Now with your Bugle tube give the most fierce scream you possibly can. Now your going to see one mad bull ! I mean he's going to kill you !! Here he comes !!

So why does bugling get a bad rap ? Timing and when why and how to use it properly !! Period. It has a bad rap because every Tom, Dick and Harry are driving the roads stopping the truck and bugling out the window and then driving off after they don't hear a bugle within 10 seconds !!

Get into the bush and find the honey holes and then move in close and see if your bugles don't work !! I bet you have the most exhilarating bugling experience of your life !!

Bugles do work !!! Go into the elk woods with just your cow call if you want but you'll missing out on what I call elk hunting !! If you don't come face to face with 900lbs of pure muscle slobbering all over him self and eyes rolled back in his head........you are not elk hunting !! Bugles do just that !!

Trav

[Mikeha33]

You guys are not the problem. I would venture to guess that you hunters could slip in, and call in elk and not run them off. You hunters are not giving calling a bad name. If I have a gripe about you (nothing personal here), it would be that everyone wants to be like you, have your success, but for one reason or more, just don't know how. They still have that bugle you sold them. they have read the Playbook twice, and they at least look the part of a Glacier Country bow hunter. Life is good.

So, given that I am not one of the guys that you mentioned, but my ultimate goal is to be a successful elk caller, (not just getting them inside of 100 yds, but sealing the deal with a bloody arrow) how else would you suggest that one becomes successful without a comedy of errors in the field??? I do not know, and maybe this is wrong, but I'd be willing to bet that all of these successful people that are in the 10% club, almost every year, had their fair share of trial and error in the field, missing opportunities and learning the hard way. I'm not arguing with your thoughts that you have posted in the thread at all, but for one to become a successful elk hunter, whether is it tree stand hunting, spot and stalk, or run and gun calling, don't we all have to just get out and learn? We can only absorb so much from reading and watching.

We Learn 10% of what we read, 20% of what we hear, 30% of what we see, 50% of what we see and hear, 70% of what we discuss, 80% of what we experience, and 95% of what we teach others, so when knocking the guys that are out there honestly trying (not the jackwagons blowing out of the back of a truck) to learn the honest way, and become part of that 10%, just remember, we all have to start somewhere, and make the most of what opportunities the good Lord puts in front of us.

[jmez]

It gets a bad rap because people don't understand the sounds and what they mean.

[Swede]

It sounds to me like some people here are getting very defensive towards bugling. I am not sure that is necessary. I am not opposed to bugling per se, but the question is "why does bugling get a bad rap?" It gets a bad rap for the reasons that have been expressed. The best way to avoid the rap is to become a proficient caller, and treat other hunters with genuine respect. Unfortunately no matter how good you get at bugling, and how sportsman like you are, you will never change the slobs that give all of hunting a bad name.
If the question had been "why does tree stand hunting get a bad rap", does anyone think I could not come up with several reasons? Personally I am not too defensive about that rap, but try to be fair as a tree stand hunter.

[jmez]

IMO knowing what each sound means and how elk use them to communicate is more important than being a good caller.

[ElkNut1]

swede, I believe you are approaching the bad rap towards bugling in the wrong light? It simply asks why do so many hunters these days whether on the Internet, TV shows, From Outfitters, etc. say bugling should be shied away from? Generally speaking their approach to bugling is all wrong! They are classic buglers with little to no knowledge on how to use their bugles effectively. When it so called fails them from their perspective numerous times they readily blame their bugles or bugling as the culprit! The many ways of failure are mentioned throughout this thread. A treestand rap is next, grin! Thanks bud!

ElkNut1

[Swede]

Paul: You are right. I was thinking why do non-buglers get fed up with buglers, and why do quality elk callers get peeved at the guys screwing up their hunt by blowing the elk out of an area. I see the question in a different light now.
Go ahead and start the tree stand thread. Lets see who can give the most first hand accounts for why tree stand hunting gets a bad rap. That should be as interesting as the calling thread.

[Mikeha33]

I wonder how many people out there who hunt want to bugle not only because it seems like the "cool" way to hunt, but also because of the intense encounter with a pissed off 1/2 ton wild animal that could ensue after a nasty, throaty, threatening bugle? I don't know, because I haven't been there, BUT, it does seem like it would be a fantastic story! Personally, I have no idea what the best hunting style is, even for myself, but I plan to find out over the next several years. I am going to take a treestand West with me this fall, in hopes of finding a prime hanging location. Treestand hunting is basically all I know when it comes to whitetails, so I like to think I could utilize that towards elk as well.

[Swede]

My advise for everyone that hunts elk is to become a predator. Think like a predator and act like one. Everything you do should have a purpose. You need to consider if you will be effective or is your hunting an act of desperation? Sometimes the best move you can make is to back off. Sometimes it is to charge ahead. My experience is that most people are inclined to charge when they should know better. Become a hunter and use your call as a tool. The bugle should never be used to make up for a lack of hunting skill. If you do that you are poisoning the well so to speak and giving bugling a bad rap. As some have said, don't blame the tool, for your lack o hunting still. Just my thought.

Now where is Elknut with his tree stand thread?

[msd1228]

I'd be willing to bet that all of these successful people that are in the 10% club, almost every year, had their fair share of trial and error in the field, missing opportunities and learning the hard way. I'm not arguing with your thoughts that you have posted in the thread at all, but for one to become a successful elk hunter, whether is it tree stand hunting, spot and stalk, or run and gun calling, don't we all have to just get out and learn? We can only absorb so much from reading and watching.

The people in the 10% club still miss opportunities, do the wrong things, and learn the hard way every season. Even those who are in the 10% club only connect on a fraction of their call ins - they all still make mistakes and they will all encounter scenarios that they have never encountered before on a yearly basis. The biggest difference, in my opinion, is that the 10%ers simply make fewer mistakes, and the mistakes they do make are not as large. A 10%er can have a bull come in and hang up, but because hes had that happen before he knows how not to blow the bull outta the country. That same hunter can still kill that same bull later that same day.

At the risk of getting sidetracked a little bit, its not the guys that are out there trying their best and learning from their mistakes that drive the successful guys nuts - we've all been that guy at some point; its the guys who continually make the same mistakes over and over and have no desire to learn how to improve what their doing and subsequently blow the elk outta the country that drive the successful guys nuts.