A Time For Everything

[Swede]

In Ecclesiastes chapter 3 King Solomon wrote there is a time for everything. Certainly he understood there are limits we need to recognize. In this thread I want to explore that concept in regard to elk calling.

I want to take a quote from John Fitzgerald on his calling thread and analyze and yes even debate it. John wrote as an answer to me, "I believe your elk are callable. The hunter needs to work harder .....".
Don't get me wrong here. John is a skilled and capable elk hunter. I am just trying to give context to a principle or idea I believe many hunters have been coaxed into believing. That principle seems to be, that calling is the answer, regardless of the question/situation. Just "work harder."

So here are the questions. Does that mean any time and everywhere? Is calling the right answer whenever you hear elk calling or can get a response? If calling is not the best, or even an appropriate way to always hunt elk in archery season, then what are the timing and situational perimeters? Please give examples if you can.

[JohnFitzgerald]

Since you used my name, I'll respond first.

Calling is a style of hunting, just like spot/stalk and tree stand hunting. The hunter can use any style for years but still get it wrong. By working harder, I mean truly learn your style. Don't just think about it 3 days before you leave for the moutains.

The problem is there's so much commercialization on "recommended" calls that people think they can kill big bulls by going to the local wal-mart and picking up brand x bugle. Then they go out to the woods and blow it all day long. You can't blame the brand x bugle, it's the fault of the hunter not taking the time to understand what he/she is saying with the bugle.

Over the years I've taught a lot of hunters about calling elk. The first thing I tell them is buy Paul's playbook before you even pick out a call.

So to answer your question, understanding elk language will teach you when, where, and how often to call. Is there a time when no calling should be used, sure there is. But I can't lay things out in black and white because situation dictates everything.

In the area I hunt, good tree stand locations are sometimes 2 miles in through some nasty blow down. I've seen guys put stands in bad locations, but I don't make the assumption that stand hunting in my area is bad and all you'll get is tag soup.

p.s. You took "just work harder" out of context.

[Toby]

I approach elk hunting like I approach Whitetail hunting. I do it in a way that is most enjoyable to me, while always understanding that others enjoy hunting in a different manner.

I like to rattle or call whitetails, it's just more exciting to me. So, I hunt them that way when I can, during that time when they are most likely to respond to such techniques. If I hunt at other times, which isn't very often, I use more subtle approaches like trail watching.

I elk hunt the same way, calling when I feel it is appropriate, but aware of those situations when it is best not to call and just slip in, stalk, or trail watch.

I used to be able to sit quietly content in a tree from dark to dark waiting for a Whitetail buck to come by. But, since I started elk hunting I can no longer do that, don't have the patience for it. The run and gun approach we take to chasing elk, and the excitement that goes with it, has kind of ruined my prolonged tree stand hunts. I like the freedom of being on the ground and scratching the itch to see what is over the next ridge.

So, I try to use calls as the situation dictates, at least in my mind, all the while trying not to over call, and sometimes not calling at all, if that seems best.

[cnelk]

I also hunt elk the way 'I' like to hunt elk.

I dont need to know how to use the '3 Legged Horny Bull' bugle at sundown.
Or the 'One Ear Calf Call' on Tuesday 3 days before the full moon.

I know when to do a location bugle, and when to give a soft mew.
I can sit in a tree stand and see elk, or stalk thru the timber and see elk
I have figured out what works for me in my area - not someone's else's spot.

I dont need to impress anyone, I just go hunt elk - my way.

[JohnFitzgerald]

I also hunt elk the way 'I' like to hunt elk.

I dont need to know how to use the '3 Legged Horny Bull' bugle at sundown.
Or the 'One Ear Calf Call' on Tuesday 3 days before the full moon.

I know when to do a location bugle, and when to give a soft mew.
I can sit in a tree stand and see elk, or stalk thru the timber and see elk
I have figured out what works for me in my area - not someone's else's spot.

I dont need to impress anyone, I just go hunt elk - my way.

If someone wanted to learn the '3 Legged Horny Bull' bugle at sundown or the 'One Ear Calf Call' on Tuesday 3 days before the full moon, would you discourage it? Because maybe they might just work for some hunters.

I've hunted Swede's area before.

[cnelk]

If hunter happens to see a 3 legged bull during their scouting ventures, I would most certainly recommend learning it, especially if they see it at sundown.

The One Ear Calf call wont work this year as the full moon is on a Monday.

[JohnFitzgerald]

If hunter happens to see a 3 legged bull during their scouting ventures, I would most certainly recommend learning it, especially if they see it at sundown.

The One Ear Calf call wont work this year as the full moon is on a Monday.

LOL!

[elkmtngear]

When the elk are noisy, I get noisier

When the elk are quiet, I get quieter

I do not think highly pressured public land elk hesitate to call B.S., when a roaming "elk" didn't get the memo

[JohnFitzgerald]

When the elk are noisy, I get noisier

When the elk are quiet, I get quieter

I do not think highly pressured public land elk hesitate to call B.S., when a roaming "elk" didn't get the memo

Tru dat! But let me ask you a question Jeff, do you think the pressured elk are not callible? Or does it take a little more advanced calling knowledge from the hunter to make it happen?

[elkmtngear]

When the elk are noisy, I get noisier

When the elk are quiet, I get quieter

I do not think highly pressured public land elk hesitate to call B.S., when a roaming "elk" didn't get the memo

Tru dat! But let me ask you a question Jeff, do you think the pressured elk are not callible? Or does it take a little more advanced calling knowledge from the hunter to make it happen?

John, I would answer that it is "situational"

If a hunter happens to luck into the right scenario on a "no bugle" day...he can certainly capitalize on advanced calling knowledge. The ticket is of course, to make the right sounds at the right moment given the situation.

At any rate, on a relatively silent day...close encounters using calling will probably bear more fruit, than running around trying to use locator calls IMHO.

[Indian Summer]

I let the elk make the call to a degree. Example: When you walk into a bar and everyone is laughing and carrying on it's acceptable to strike up a conversation. Of course some pick up lines work better than others or, in other words.... being a good caller sure helps or you might be better off using the spot and stalk method. But perhaps any lines (calls) are better than sitting quietly in the corner waiting for opportunity to come your way. On the other hand... if you walked into a church or library and started to talk at a normal volume about whatever crossed your mind you'd stick out like a sore thumb as an idiot. There are days where the elk just aren't talking and you should try not to stand out in the crowd if you hope to make any friends at all.

One word: Diversity!

[Swede]

I think you guy are really getting to the essence of what I was trying to bring out here.

The problem is there's so much commercialization on "recommended" calls that people think they can kill big bulls by going to the local wal-mart and picking up brand x bugle. Then they go out to the woods and blow it all day long. You can't blame the brand x bugle, it's the fault of the hunter not taking the time to understand what he/she is saying with the bugle.

John you nailed it. I agree with your entire post. Calling is a tool. Used the right way at the right time it is very productive. But just like cnelk's chainsaw, it is not the tool for every situation. Sorry to have to say that Brad. I also think many hunters have misunderstood Elknut's admonition to be aggressive. "Aggressive" is not indiscriminate or constant.

John you will have to help me with the context of my quote. I have to admit I must have misunderstood.

[WapitiTalk1]

John you nailed it. I agree with your entire post.

Logged and catalogued for historical reference. The Oregon boys aree on something, completely!

[Swede]

Logged and catalogued for historical reference. The Oregon boys agree on something, completely!

We also agree that there is a certain trouble maker living just to our north.

[WapitiTalk1]

Logged and catalogued for historical reference. The Oregon boys agree on something, completely!

We also agree that there is a certain trouble maker living just to our north.

I'll keep my eye out for any trouble makers up my way, whoever it is I also agree with those last comments from JF.. just don't tell him I said so.

[JohnFitzgerald]

Swede -

I think I may have read your interpretation wrong. My apologies because I think we are on the same page.

What I meant is if your going to use calling as your tactic, then work hard at learning how to make it a successful tool. This means spending more than 3 minutes a year on calling. Understand that elk have a language more that just the standard bugle and there's many other tools that compliment calling.

I disagree with the panel that when the elk are quiet, you should be quiet. Too many times I've picked up bulls when the woods were dead silent. But also at times, I put the calls away. Situation dictates and there's no black and white rules.

[JohnFitzgerald]

Logged and catalogued for historical reference. The Oregon boys agree on something, completely!

We also agree that there is a certain trouble maker living just to our north.

I'll keep my eye out for any trouble makers up my way, whoever it is I also agree with those last comments from JF.. just don't tell him I said so.

: - P

[Willie makit]

I let the elk make the call to a degree. Example: When you walk into a bar and everyone is laughing and carrying on it's acceptable to strike up a conversation. Of course some pick up lines work better than others or, in other words.... being a good caller sure helps or you might be better off using the spot and stalk method. But perhaps any lines (calls) are better than sitting quietly in the corner waiting for opportunity to come your way. On the other hand... if you walked into a church or library and started to talk at a normal volume about whatever crossed your mind you'd stick out like a sore thumb as an idiot. There are days where the elk just aren't talking and you should try not to stand out in the crowd if you hope to make any friends at all!

Wow, can’t bring it home any better than this! When I do step out in the elk woods my first hunt now that’s what I’m gonna say to myself. "I’m the new guy in the elk bar, time to meet the locals"

Only other thing that sticks out in my mind is what JGH posted about things you can’t take back, "A bad call at the wrong time" I’m practicing calling daily so I won’t have that one call that sounds like a 2 year old with a duck call at crunch time.

[ctdad]

I'm pretty sure it was 2012 elk season. Elknut located a bull and then used his knowledge of the terrain and the elk behavior in that area. He got in the right location and killed a great herd bull. I'm paraphrasing but that's how I remember the story as it was told on this sight. I can't remember exactly how he located the bull (did elknut call or did he just hear the bull calling), but after it was located, he didn't need to use fancy cow sounds, or some advanced level of the threat. He used his elk knowledge of elk and terrain to kill a great bull.

I still think about the story of that hunt when I'm trying to learn how to be a better elk hunter. There is no one single component to killing elk. The guy who literally wrote the book on calling elk just killed a great bull without much (or any?) calling. You have to leverage everything you can in your favor. You'll never be 100%, but the more you learn, study and practice, the better your chances of killing elk. You might have to call em, sneak in on em, ambush em as they come by, or just get dumb lucky (this is my hope), just so long as you take advantage of your opportunities the best way you know how.

[Trophyhill]

I look at calling as a tool that comes with our craft. On the other hand I would be just as thrilled to kill elk without saying anything. For everything there is a season. Calling seems to be in season when I have my bow in hand in September. I think the more experience a person gets at hunting elk, the better they become at knowing which "select sounds" up his/her odds. I'm not going to argue with success no matter what the tactic because the proof is in the pudding and in the freezer.

[Trophyhill]

Swede -
I disagree with the panel that when the elk are quiet, you should be quiet. Too many times I've picked up bulls when the woods were dead silent. But also at times, I put the calls away. Situation dictates and there's no black and white rules.

The last 2 years for me the elk were dead silent until I solicited or serenaded and broke that silence. It's amazing how one well timed/placed call can bring the elk woods alive with elk talk and up your odds.

[Indian Summer]

[quote="JohnFitzgerald"]I disagree with the panel that when the elk are quiet, you should be quiet. Too many times I've picked up bulls when the woods were dead silent. But also at times, I put the calls away. quote]

I never said silent. Never say never right! You can whisper in a library or church right?

I may use unconventional calling. Anonymous sounds that elk can't determine if that's the neighbor's voice they know oh so well. On quiet days instead of using a bugle, or even a cow call to locate, I may just rake the heck out of a tree or do some serious stomping. Elk make lots of sounds so for you new guys don't think calling is just "calling".

True story: Have any of you ever slammed the truck door and had a turkey gobble? I had a friend pull up to a trailhead, get out, go around back and pull his gear out and slam the tailgate. A bull bugled. Then he bugled again and much closer. The bull bugled a third time and was coming fast. The 7 by 7 is hanging on his wall! Talk about unconventional calling. Who needs a Hoochie mama?!!! Or a pack frame right!

[Lefty]

,..... I do it in a way that is most enjoyable to me, while always understanding that others enjoy hunting in a different manner.
,,,,.

I see the same in so many things we do. When I take out young/newbies goose hunting I hear over and over about this guy and his DVDs or Y-tubes.
But in their defence often that is thier main exposure. Not field expierience
Marketing can mess up a lot of hunts. Those uf us that spend a lot of time in the outdoors have a lot of the newst and greatest accumul;ated over time
Every younfg buck out their expiericene come from the screen, While certianly helpfull expierience needs to be balanced into the equation
I listened to a couple guys talking about bivy hunting at Cabelas,.. Evidently they had the finaces to purchase most of the best stuff. Only one had been in the elk woods with a bow, none had ever backpacked. None had slept in a tent, their first sleeping bag on and on. Marketing,... and,... well,... all the information out there they were on there first trip. None had expierience. I interupted and suggested they scout their area on a couple back pack trips suggesting they get to know their equipment and what doesnt work for them and which meals they perfered .
" Naw" " We got this"
The weather was warm. Im sure they did ok,.. But believen me these guys I met at Cabelas I had a real concern, A bit of adversity and they could have been doomed
Wow how did I get on that

Oh-yeah Hunt they way you like to hunt. I hunt hunt where I want to be alone, I dont mind my wife buddy or one of my daughters along,.. but I like being alone
Far from great elk country,.. and far from others. With a bum leg; spotting and stalking or sitting at the water works for me.

[Lefty]

In Ecclesiastes chapter 3 King Solomon wrote there is a time for everything. Certainly he understood there are limits we need to recognize. In this thread I want to explore that concept in regard to elk calling. .

I picked up an Apostolic Lutheran church leader in the pouring rain on Mt St Helen One of his first quotes
"There is a time to work and a time to play."

[Csrbowhunter]

For me the hardest thing is just doing cold calling setups. It's hard for me to sat there for a hour and do a calling sequence without hearing anything. I seem to do better just filtering threw the wood doing some soft cow calls until I hear something that peaks my interest. Don't get me wrong, I'll do locate bugles first as I walk threw the woods but if there is no feed back then I'd rather still hunt and do some soft cows every now and again. I do cold setups but just don't prefer to do them. Hell I've even tried that crazy one off elknuts dvd, where you do those real winy bugles. It's never worked for me but I bet this year if I get desperate I'll try it again.
I've came out of the woods and talked to other hunter that said the elk were silent and I had a crazy bugle fest day. And I've had days where others have said they were silent and I could get them to call back to me once and then nothing! Those are very frustrating days because you can't even get a good location on them to spot and stalk them.
I prefer to call. It's just more exciting to me. And just like toby it's ruined my whitetail hunting in a tree. I don't know how many times I'll be sitting in a tree and think to myself" wish I'd hear a bugle"! Then remember I'm whitetail hunting and it's boring compared to elk hunting in the rut.

[JohnFitzgerald]

I disagree with the panel that when the elk are quiet, you should be quiet. Too many times I've picked up bulls when the woods were dead silent. But also at times, I put the calls away. quote]

I never said silent. Never say never right! You can whisper in a library or church right?

I may use unconventional calling. Anonymous sounds that elk can't determine if that's the neighbor's voice they know oh so well. On quiet days instead of using a bugle, or even a cow call to locate, I may just rake the heck out of a tree or do some serious stomping. Elk make lots of sounds so for you new guys don't think calling is just "calling".

True story: Have any of you ever slammed the truck door and had a turkey gobble? I had a friend pull up to a trailhead, get out, go around back and pull his gear out and slam the tailgate. A bull bugled. Then he bugled again and much closer. The bull bugled a third time and was coming fast. The 7 by 7 is hanging on his wall! Talk about unconventional calling. Who needs a Hoochie mama?!!! Or a pack frame right!

Joe, I somewhat agree and disagree. As the elk wisper to each other, I'll be the first to throw out a nice loud location bugle. But then I will work the bull that responsonded with nice quiet easy cow calls(ie wisper). Not because of the temperment of the elk, but because the wisper is a strategy.