Calling Situations - Beyond Generalization

[JohnFitzgerald]

Many times calling situations and tactics are generally explained. Why? Because not every situation is black and white and it's almost impossible to cookie cut every possible scenario. But one can increase their success by doing one simple thing.....play both sides of the encounter.

Hunter side:
I just locate bugled and and got a response from a satellite bull. The wind is in my favor and I worked cows calls all the way in within 40-80 yards. The bull continues to try and bugle me in but he will not close any distance. Do I chance getting closer? Why wont this bull commit to coming in?

Bulls side:
Here comes the cow. I'm going to continue to bugle her in but I'm a little weary. Why has she stopped? One instinct tells me to be careful because that's not normal cow behavior. The other instinct tells me I can breed her. I'm getting really anxious now...what do I do? She's not going anywhere, so I'm just going to stay put and see what happens.

Note: As I sit here thinking about what "I" would do as a hunter, many thoughts race through my mind. Here's one of them.

Hunter side:
The bull will not commit so I'm going to force one instinct to overpower the second. I'm going to imitate a young bull coming in to hook the cow. If this bull really wants this cow, he should commit to getting her back.

So, does anyone else want to play off this or start a new encounter. Make sure to give both sides and a possible solution to problems that arise. It's very easy to list a tactic but not so easy to play devil's advocate for the other side.

jf

[Swede]

Swede hears all of this from his tree stand. Finishes second cookie and checks his bow. Swede reminds himself to be very quiet and watchful when it's time to stand up. "Don't blow it dude".

Lead Cow: "I am not in the mood for all of this. I think I will continue to the water hole up the draw."

Old bull: I would like to give that rag horn what he really deserves, but I better just follow along. Besides if I went to the raggy, he would sneak in and try to hook my little cow.

Swede: Finishes another cookie and watches movement about 100 yards out.

[Swede]

The small herd finally reaches Swede's water hole.

The lead cow, three other cows, and a couple calves start to water.

The old bull hangs back a ways behind some brush.

Swede looks over the situation and likes the lead cow. She is heavy and in great shape.

The older bull continues to hang back.

Swede comes to full draw and shoots the lead cow, and with a big smile on his face sits back down.

The cow runs down the draw about 60 yards and piles up within Swede's eyesight. WOW!

Swede is very pleased, but starts to think about the work he has ahead. "Maybe Stringunner can get that bull" he says to himself, as he starts letting his bow down on the drop line.

[>>>---WW---->]

I think the reason the bull you are calling may just have a cow or two with him and is reluctant to leave them. And probably there was no reason for you to cow call on your way to him. Just get in close before you give your cow sounds. After a couple of mews, try giving short a high-pitched bugle and rake a tree to make him think you have stolen one of his cows. This should bring him looking for you.

[Swede]

Swede walks up to his cow and snaps a couple of pictures. As he prepares to take a picture of himself with the cow and his bow, he keeps hearing what sounds like a rag horn bull.

Raggy: TOOT, TOOt, TOot, Toot, toot, toot, toot

Swede: "OK John. That's enough! Come over here and lend a hand. Make yourself useful."

[JohnFitzgerald]

I think the reason the bull you are calling may just have a cow or two with him and is reluctant to leave them. And probably there was no reason for you to cow call on your way to him. Just get in close before you give your cow sounds. After a couple of mews, try giving short a high-pitched bugle and rake a tree to make him think you have stolen one of his cows. This should bring him looking for you.

That's true, he could be a herd bull. Let's say we made that mistake. I know I've done it. What would you do if he didn't respond to your setup? What would cause him to still hang up?

Bull Side: That little bull is staying over there, he posses no threat to my two cows because neither are in estrus.

[stringunner]

continued.....[quote="Swede"]Swede walks up to his cow and snaps a couple of pictures." Then says to himself, "man I am sure glad I offered my other stand close by to Stringunner today, I think I will walk over and see if he will lend a hand to pack this out..."

Mean while, Stringunner thinks he hears a bit of commotion just a ways off and is wondering if he is going to get to help pack some meat out today for Swede.

[cnelk]

If I may...

Unless the timber is really thick, 40 yds is a typical distance to see 'something' ahead, like a flash of tan, be it bull or cow.
80yds could just as well be a mile

The 40-80yds mentioned is just too big of a spread to safely make a decision on what to do next.

So,
Im going to 'assume' that no movement was seen and that tells me the distance is probably closer to 60-80yds.

Hunter Side
Im moving closer - with no calling.
You got the wind, you got the bull's interest, he aint going anywhere until you do something wrong

Bull's side
Im standing here motionless and wait for this cow to make a move.
I hate it when these damn cows are always taking their time, making me bugle to tell them where Im at and tell them hurry up.

[JohnFitzgerald]

If I may...

Unless the timber is really thick, 40 yds is a typical distance to see 'something' ahead, like a flash of tan, be it bull or cow.
80yds could just as well be a mile

The 40-80yds mentioned is just too big of a spread to safely make a decision on what to do next.

So,
Im going to 'assume' that no movement was seen and that tells me the distance is probably closer to 60-80yds.

Hunter Side
Im moving closer - with no calling.
You got the wind, you got the bull's interest, he aint going anywhere until you do something wrong

Bull's side
Im standing here motionless and wait for this cow to make a move.
I hate it when these damn cows are always taking their time, making me bugle to tell them where Im at and tell them hurry up.

Playing on.......

Hunter Side: I still have the wind on my side but do to terrain I just can't get any closer. Damn, this always happens to me!

Bull Side: I've already told this cow to hurry up, why isn't she coming!

[JohnFitzgerald]

Swede and company......stop derailing my awesome thread! Trouble makers!

[Swede]

So, does anyone else want to play off this or start a new encounter.

At least I can't be accused of hijacking the thread.

[Trophyhill]

If I may...

Unless the timber is really thick, 40 yds is a typical distance to see 'something' ahead, like a flash of tan, be it bull or cow.
80yds could just as well be a mile

The 40-80yds mentioned is just too big of a spread to safely make a decision on what to do next.

So,
Im going to 'assume' that no movement was seen and that tells me the distance is probably closer to 60-80yds.

Hunter Side
Im moving closer - with no calling.
You got the wind, you got the bull's interest, he aint going anywhere until you do something wrong

Bull's side


Im standing here motionless and wait for this cow to make a move.
I hate it when these damn cows are always taking their time, making me bugle to tell them where Im at and tell them hurry up.

Playing on.......

Hunter Side: I still have the wind on my side but do to terrain I just can't get any closer. Damn, this always happens to me!

Bull Side: I've already told this cow to hurry up, why isn't she coming!

Hunters side: it's to risky to move without cover but I still have the wind. Everything I've tried isn't working. I know I'm pin pointed or will be with my next sound so here goes nothing. I think I'll give a loud pleading cow sound with my temptress or long ranger cow call, draw my bow and get ready to stop him with a nervous grunt at just the right time and kill him as soon as I stop him in the spot I chose him to stop

[JohnFitzgerald]

So, does anyone else want to play off this or start a new encounter.

At least I can't be accused of hijacking the thread.

The thread is called Calling Situations - Beyond Generalization. However, it's not called Swede Eat Cookies - Shoots a Cow. My 9 year old daughter can do that!

[ctdad]

How about loudly stopping off 30 yards and throwing a couple cow calls further back. Then instantly turn and quietly get back as close as cover will allow. Nock arrow and draw as soon as he starts your way.

[Swede]

You are not getting it John. While you are tooting, the tree stand hunter is shooting. At least that is the way it works in my story.

[JohnFitzgerald]

If I may...

Unless the timber is really thick, 40 yds is a typical distance to see 'something' ahead, like a flash of tan, be it bull or cow.
80yds could just as well be a mile

The 40-80yds mentioned is just too big of a spread to safely make a decision on what to do next.

So,
Im going to 'assume' that no movement was seen and that tells me the distance is probably closer to 60-80yds.

Hunter Side
Im moving closer - with no calling.
You got the wind, you got the bull's interest, he aint going anywhere until you do something wrong

Bull's side


Im standing here motionless and wait for this cow to make a move.
I hate it when these damn cows are always taking their time, making me bugle to tell them where Im at and tell them hurry up.

Playing on.......

Hunter Side: I still have the wind on my side but do to terrain I just can't get any closer. Damn, this always happens to me!

Bull Side: I've already told this cow to hurry up, why isn't she coming!

Hunters side: it's to risky to move without cover but I still have the wind. Everything I've tried isn't working. I know I'm pin pointed or will be with my next sound so here goes nothing. I think I'll give a loud pleading cow sound with my temptress or long ranger cow call, draw my bow and get ready to stop him with a nervous grunt at just the right time and kill him as soon as I stop him in the spot I chose him to stop

I might try that one as well.

Ok, say you have another hunter with you as the shooter.

Caller Side: I'm going to leave the shooter right here. As I walk away, I'm going to give the impression that the cow got hook by a young bull but doesn't really want to go with him. Envisioning what it would sound like if the a bull was horning the cow and biting her on the back of the neck.

Bull Side: Crap, a younger bull just grab her and is trying to force her to leave with him. Is she worth it or will there be other cows?

[JohnFitzgerald]

You are not getting it John. While you are tooting, the tree stand hunter is shooting. At least that is the way it works in my story.

The elderly are running loose tonight!

[JohnFitzgerald]

How about loudly stopping off 30 yards and throwing a couple cow calls further back. Then instantly turn and quietly get back as close as cover will allow. Nock arrow and draw as soon as he starts your way.

Just playing devil's advocate here ctdad.

Bull Side 1: Why did she turn around and walk off? Is she not interested in me? Tough, she's mine!

or

Bull Side 2: Why would she just walk off? That's not normal cow behavior.

[ctdad]

So maybe I should throw in a wimpy spike squeal while she's moving off and then sneak back in. That would make more sense to the bull I'd guess.

[Swede]

John: Your scenario is very valid and certainly not uncommon. I was fooling with you a lot, but the truth is that where I hunt, you are better off not chasing after the bull. Swede is in the tree eating his cookies for a reason. You are more likely to push him out of the area than to kill him. Once in a while one will come into a small bull bugle, a small bugle with cow call, or just a cow call. The vast majority of the time the bull will either stay put and call back to you, or just leave.

[>>>---WW---->]

John wrote "The elderly are running loose tonight! "

Why you young wiper snapper! Watcha ask'n all these stuped questions fer? Elks don't think, they react. Give em sumpen ta react to. Us gray beards is keep'n are secrets to ourselves.

[JohnFitzgerald]

John: Your scenario is very valid and certainly not uncommon. I was fooling with you a lot, but the truth is that where I hunt, you are better off not chasing after the bull. Swede is in the tree eating his cookies for a reason. You are more likely to push him out of the area than to kill him. Once in a while one will come into a small bull bugle, a small bugle with cow call, or just a cow call. The vast majority of the time the bull will either stay put and call back to you, or just leave.

I know, I was fooling with you as well. But ask yourself, why do think the vast majority of the time the bull will either stay put and call back to you, or just leave? Is it the fact that their "living" instinct is overpowering their "breeding" instinct? They must be buying into it a little if they are calling back. Right? This entire thread was designed to get hunters to think like an elk and less like a hunter. It's very easy to say get in close and cow call. Reasonable tactic! But, in the past I've done that dozens of times and yes the elk will eventually just walk off. Playing the other side gives you a different look at the encounter and might just help you solve the mystery of.....why!

WW - Now you sound like my grandpa! Yes, I was a little dramatic when I was on the Elk Side. But all of those thoughts were based on two reaction instincts.....breeding and staying alive. As callers, we need to figure out how to promote the breed reaction over the staying alive reaction. Some area's and for some elk it's a little tougher(ie Swedes area). But I truly believe most bulls are callable. You just need to find out what pushes the buttons. Even if it means going beyond what the elders teach and find new and improved tactics.

[Swede]

This you could try: Cow call and sound like a cow bit and harassed. Bugle then rake a tree and stomp around a little and rake some more. Try to make the real bull believe there is a cow that wants to go to him but is being held back.

[JGH]

I like this scenario ... lots to think about and it really "hits home" as I had this stuff happen to me daily last season.

Here's what I think:

When two elk are approaching each other, they are doing so based on verbal communication at first ... they hear each other.

As they get to that 40-80 yard mark, they seem to almost universally stop and expect to see movement.

They have switched from "listening" to "looking".

As a relatively new elk hunter, my progression has gone from "Finding" elk, to "Talking to" elk, and this bit about the last 40 yards, where it comes down to "Fooling" elk is where my efforts will be this year.

For me, Finding elk was real tough at first, but now it's a bit easier. Then, it was the Verbal Communication that was tough, but I think I'm getting a handle on that. But Fooling elk up close ... that's where the rubber meets the road.

So, the scenario from my point of view:

Hunter: If I don't move, I'm screwed. If I move, I'm screwed. I think I'm screwed.

Bull: Something isn't right. I will stand here without so much as blinking as long as it takes to sort this out. If she wants to breed now, she'll want to breed in 15 minutes, too.

See, my problem is that I either get too close to the bull before setting up, or set up too far away, and he thinks something's up.

Also, I'm not keeping good tabs on the bull himself ... meaning that as I'm closing in, sometimes I think the elk has stopped when he hasn't, and sometimes I think he's on the move toward me when he's really standing there motionless watching me futz with a decoy!

If you can tell me how to break down decision making at this point, let me know!

[Trophyhill]

I like this scenario ... lots to think about and it really "hits home" as I had this stuff happen to me daily last season.

Here's what I think:

When two elk are approaching each other, they are doing so based on verbal communication at first ... they hear each other.

As they get to that 40-80 yard mark, they seem to almost universally stop and expect to see movement.

They have switched from "listening" to "looking".

As a relatively new elk hunter, my progression has gone from "Finding" elk, to "Talking to" elk, and this bit about the last 40 yards, where it comes down to "Fooling" elk is where my efforts will be this year.

For me, Finding elk was real tough at first, but now it's a bit easier. Then, it was the Verbal Communication that was tough, but I think I'm getting a handle on that. But Fooling elk up close ... that's where the rubber meets the road.

So, the scenario from my point of view:

Hunter: If I don't move, I'm screwed. If I move, I'm screwed. I think I'm screwed.

Bull: Something isn't right. I will stand here without so much as blinking as long as it takes to sort this out. If she wants to breed now, she'll want to breed in 15 minutes, too.

See, my problem is that I either get too close to the bull before setting up, or set up too far away, and he thinks something's up.

Also, I'm not keeping good tabs on the bull himself ... meaning that as I'm closing in, sometimes I think the elk has stopped when he hasn't, and sometimes I think he's on the move toward me when he's really standing there motionless watching me futz with a decoy!

If you can tell me how to break down decision making at this point, let me know!

I've had 2 things work for me in this situation. one a small bull and the other a respectable 300+ bull. with the big bull I turned my head and "threw" a very faint cow call with my temptress. a very low in volume call. it was low enough in volume and pointed in a direction behind me that the bull had to come looking. that was his down fall. before I made this faint call, I saw the bull peering thru the timber looking for the cow (me) he heard at 60-80 yards.

[twinkieman]

hunter's side
The next time he bugles, I'm not answering at all, hoping he will wonder what happened to this hot cow. Hopefully he will come looking for her.

Bulls side
Where did she go? I want some action I need to locate her again.

I would also relocate 10 to 20 yards away from my last calling location to give me a broadside shot if he does come looking. If this doesn't work, and the bull still tries to bugle me in, I still have him located and all I have lost is some time.

[cnelk]

Elk side
Something was wrong with that situation back there. I quietly left there 5 minutes ago


Hunter side
I just know that bull is going to bugle again. Im going to just sit here until he does

[JohnFitzgerald]

I like this scenario ... lots to think about and it really "hits home" as I had this stuff happen to me daily last season.

Here's what I think:

When two elk are approaching each other, they are doing so based on verbal communication at first ... they hear each other.

As they get to that 40-80 yard mark, they seem to almost universally stop and expect to see movement.

They have switched from "listening" to "looking".

As a relatively new elk hunter, my progression has gone from "Finding" elk, to "Talking to" elk, and this bit about the last 40 yards, where it comes down to "Fooling" elk is where my efforts will be this year.

For me, Finding elk was real tough at first, but now it's a bit easier. Then, it was the Verbal Communication that was tough, but I think I'm getting a handle on that. But Fooling elk up close ... that's where the rubber meets the road.

Seriously, I want to learn from you.

So, the scenario from my point of view:

Hunter: If I don't move, I'm screwed. If I move, I'm screwed. I think I'm screwed.

Bull: Something isn't right. I will stand here without so much as blinking as long as it takes to sort this out. If she wants to breed now, she'll want to breed in 15 minutes, too.

See, my problem is that I either get too close to the bull before setting up, or set up too far away, and he thinks something's up.

Also, I'm not keeping good tabs on the bull himself ... meaning that as I'm closing in, sometimes I think the elk has stopped when he hasn't, and sometimes I think he's on the move toward me when he's really standing there motionless watching me futz with a decoy!

If you can tell me how to break down decision making at this point, let me know!

I want to hear what you think you should do at this point. I'm humble enough to realize that new elk hunters can contribute just as much as vertan elk hunters. Think like an elk. Remember elk react because of two instincts, the need breeding and the need to staying alive.

[JGH]

After thinking things over this winter, I realized that I was in a mode of "Call or Don't Call" ...

And, like I said above, it seemed that either way I would be screwed.

But perhaps there would be another option.

Here's what I think my "other" options are:

1. Challenge him, get in his face ... swing for the fence, as they say

I made this "sort of" work last year, several times, but the risk is that he'll be intimidated and leave, and even if he does come in, he's got my location dialed-in

2. Stomp, rake, or use some other "noise" that isn't really "communication", but invites curiosity

I didn't try this much, but I wonder if it would work

3. Challenge him with a spike bugle

Like others have said, he might "know" the cows aren't in estrous, so he won't feel the urgency of dealing with this

4. Flash a decoy

I tried this, but I don't have enough hands to make it work. Even if it worked, I would have given away my position. I think if there was distance between the decoy and the shooter, i.e. two hunters, this could work.

5. Wait him out

A staredown contest is not my forte. I always lose.

6. Throw a rock to one side to draw attention and curiosity there

But risk being seen moving

7. Let him move out, then re-engage another hundred yards away. Maybe after 2 or 3 encounters, he'll have to make the decision to either deal with this or move on. Has anyone tried to be "annoying" rather than "challenging"? I mean, a bully responds much more aggressively to being annoyed than challenged ... and bull elk are kind of bullies, right?

I guess the bottom line is that he is expecting a meeting, and something "went wrong" ... and I have to find a way to explain why it went wrong. Overall, I like either #1, #2, or #6, though #4 if there are two hunters.

How do the elk handle this when there really are two elk? I suspect these encounters develop much slower than we expect. I think everything in the woods happens on a much slower pace, and we're very impatient.

For years, while working on "Finding" and "Initiating Verbal Communication", the rule of thumb was "When in doubt, act".

Now, working on "Closing the deal", I wonder if a new rule of thumb isn't better, like "When in doubt, be patient". In close, it's his game to lose, let him make the mistake. When I was far away, it was my game to lose.

Is this making sense?

[Csrbowhunter]

I had this happen to me. I was hunting right at timber line the bull was in front of me on the edge of the timberline . He had 9 cows with him but would answer every cow call but stay with his cows. I'm standing in a large finger of timber that came down into the grassy,open part of the down slope of the mtn. I try to move away from bull and make some cow calls like the cow is leaving. Then I would run back up to the edge of the finger and wait for him to come. I did this a couple of times. Now I can see more of his cows. They have filtered more in the grassy open parts but still 80yds from me.
At this time I think there is no way that bull is going to leave his cows to come to me. At this point I decide to get back in the timberline and move towards him and try get above him. As I'm moving towards him,maybe 1/4 the way to him, I hear a scream bugle! I look behind me and there he stands right on the edge of that finger.
I turn around and start going back to him. I get back to the edge of timberline and pop out in the grass. As I reach for my range finder to make sure of the range, the cows go running down the mtn. The bulls turns around to see what's going on and sees his cows leaving. I range him 52yds. Pull back my bow and he runs off! I stand there wondering what the heck just happened when another hunter popped out of the timberline on the other side of where the cows were.
The point of my story is here's another thing that can go wrong when the bull hangs up. Other hunters here all the commotion and move in and screw up your setup. Now for the newbie hunter this situation is different to the original situation because this was a herd bull not a satellite bull. I was hoping for the herd bull but would have taken a nice satellite bull if one would have came in. But with this herd there were just a few rag horns .

[Csrbowhunter]

Now here's one that worked for me on a satellite bull.

Hunter: I'm below the bull, cow calling him but he's up a steep hill 80 yds or so just bugling back at me for almost a hour. I decide to get aggressive and get in closer and scream a bugle at him. Now I'm 40yds but no shot.

Bull: I don't know if this bull is bigger than me but I want his cows! I'm not moving till I see if he's bigger then me but I do have the advantage because I'm above him.

Hunter: he's still not coming because he's scared of this bull I just entered into the picture.if he's not going to come because of this bull being here I must make this bull leave so he might have his chance to get the cows. I pick up a basketball sized rock and roll it down the mtn.

Bull: now is my chance the bull is leaving. I'm going over to see if I can see him and get his cows.

Hunter: I pull my bow back and the bull ends up 5yds from me.checkmate,game over!

[Toby]

After thinking things over this winter, I realized that I was in a mode of "Call or Don't Call" ...

And, like I said above, it seemed that either way I would be screwed.

But perhaps there would be another option.

Here's what I think my "other" options are:

1. Challenge him, get in his face ... swing for the fence, as they say

I made this "sort of" work last year, several times, but the risk is that he'll be intimidated and leave, and even if he does come in, he's got my location dialed-in

2. Stomp, rake, or use some other "noise" that isn't really "communication", but invites curiosity

I didn't try this much, but I wonder if it would work

3. Challenge him with a spike bugle

Like others have said, he might "know" the cows aren't in estrous, so he won't feel the urgency of dealing with this

4. Flash a decoy

I tried this, but I don't have enough hands to make it work. Even if it worked, I would have given away my position. I think if there was distance between the decoy and the shooter, i.e. two hunters, this could work.

5. Wait him out

A staredown contest is not my forte. I always lose.

6. Throw a rock to one side to draw attention and curiosity there

But risk being seen moving

7. Let him move out, then re-engage another hundred yards away. Maybe after 2 or 3 encounters, he'll have to make the decision to either deal with this or move on. Has anyone tried to be "annoying" rather than "challenging"? I mean, a bully responds much more aggressively to being annoyed than challenged ... and bull elk are kind of bullies, right?

I guess the bottom line is that he is expecting a meeting, and something "went wrong" ... and I have to find a way to explain why it went wrong. Overall, I like either #1, #2, or #6, though #4 if there are two hunters.

How do the elk handle this when there really are two elk? I suspect these encounters develop much slower than we expect. I think everything in the woods happens on a much slower pace, and we're very impatient.

For years, while working on "Finding" and "Initiating Verbal Communication", the rule of thumb was "When in doubt, act".

Now, working on "Closing the deal", I wonder if a new rule of thumb isn't better, like "When in doubt, be patient". In close, it's his game to lose, let him make the mistake. When I was far away, it was my game to lose.

Is this making sense?

This is a great post.

[JohnFitzgerald]

After thinking things over this winter, I realized that I was in a mode of "Call or Don't Call" ...

And, like I said above, it seemed that either way I would be screwed.

But perhaps there would be another option.

Here's what I think my "other" options are:

1. Challenge him, get in his face ... swing for the fence, as they say

I made this "sort of" work last year, several times, but the risk is that he'll be intimidated and leave, and even if he does come in, he's got my location dialed-in

2. Stomp, rake, or use some other "noise" that isn't really "communication", but invites curiosity

I didn't try this much, but I wonder if it would work

3. Challenge him with a spike bugle

Like others have said, he might "know" the cows aren't in estrous, so he won't feel the urgency of dealing with this

4. Flash a decoy

I tried this, but I don't have enough hands to make it work. Even if it worked, I would have given away my position. I think if there was distance between the decoy and the shooter, i.e. two hunters, this could work.

5. Wait him out

A staredown contest is not my forte. I always lose.

6. Throw a rock to one side to draw attention and curiosity there

But risk being seen moving

7. Let him move out, then re-engage another hundred yards away. Maybe after 2 or 3 encounters, he'll have to make the decision to either deal with this or move on. Has anyone tried to be "annoying" rather than "challenging"? I mean, a bully responds much more aggressively to being annoyed than challenged ... and bull elk are kind of bullies, right?

I guess the bottom line is that he is expecting a meeting, and something "went wrong" ... and I have to find a way to explain why it went wrong. Overall, I like either #1, #2, or #6, though #4 if there are two hunters.

How do the elk handle this when there really are two elk? I suspect these encounters develop much slower than we expect. I think everything in the woods happens on a much slower pace, and we're very impatient.

For years, while working on "Finding" and "Initiating Verbal Communication", the rule of thumb was "When in doubt, act".

Now, working on "Closing the deal", I wonder if a new rule of thumb isn't better, like "When in doubt, be patient". In close, it's his game to lose, let him make the mistake. When I was far away, it was my game to lose.

Is this making sense?

It does make sense. I like 2,3,4,6.

#2,4,6 Adds realism to the encounter. Decreasing the survival action.
#3 Promotes the breeding action.

#7 I guess I have the same philosophy as a car salesman. Never let them leave the lot because it's always a tougher sell the second time.

[Glacier Country]

Its' my turn to poke some fun... GRIN!
I was watching my son's 5th grade basketball practice last night and the coach was teaching the boys how to run a certain play... my son was defending and kept either stealing the ball or getting his hands on the ball when they went to pass it... what I am getting at is they never really got to run the play until the coach talked to him about not guarding so well that they never got to run the play!The Coach told him, I know you are a great defender. We are not practicing defense right now though, we are practicing Offense right now.The purpose was to learn the offensive play, go 1/2 speed until the others know it, then we will ramp it up. I think some of this same logic applies here. IMO

Swede,We all know by now, that you are going to sit in your tree stand...You have honed that skill and that is what you will use to get it done. This is a calling Situation thread.Not a tree stand thread... So Let John Run the dang play! Grin.

Also, Swede,one of the next books I want to read is yours.I hope there is a chapter titled...How to sit in a tree stand and eat cookies. That peeked my interest, because I am a cookie monster.

In this situation, if you have a shooter and a caller send the caller back further and make all kinds of racket.( elk party) cow sounds, estrous sounds, bugling. If I am by myself I am more likely to let the bull walk away and not rush this situation. Let them get past the open terrain feature and then run to catch up, sneak closer, and then make a play on the bull in a more favorable calling situation with the odds more in my favor. I will then put them in a situation that I think gives me a higher percentage of getting them to react the way I want them to... What sounds is the bull reacting to? a bugle or cow sounds? Which ever it is that is what I am going to use to make him commit either out of desire to breed the cows or defend them from another bull. Or I am going to call in the cows with a lost calf and hope the bull will follow, then give him the small bull bugle to amp things up and make him come now that the cows have worked in closer. If he is a large herd bull my bugle will sound bigger. That has worked in the past.

[JohnFitzgerald]

So we talk about satellite bulls. What about herd bulls and going beyond the "threat" generalization. Remember, I'm being a little dramatic with the bull thoughts but underneath are the simple breed and stay alive instincts.

Hunter Side: I have this herd bull in front of me so I'm going to get within 80 yards and challenge him. That should be a safe distance.

Elk Side: This challenger is 80 yards from me. I'm still going to throw out warnings to him, but really he posses no threat because he staying at that distance.

Hunter Side: Man this bull is fired up....he's going to come in any minute.

Elk Side: He's staying back, so I'm just going to manage my cows out of the area.

Hunter Side: Oh crap, he just bugled 300 yards away. Dang, my calling must have scared him away.

Anybody want to rewrite this sequence for a successful outcome? Make sure you tell both sides.

[Trophyhill]

Bull: I'm goin a keep moving my cows to the next county. I really don't want to lose any of these cows. If I go run this bull off 80 yards from here one of those satellites that has been pestering me all night will seize the opportunity.

Hunter: aw crap! Now he's 400 yards. He's still bugling but I'll never catch him. But I have to try. I'm gonna dog the herd to their beds and try to kill him this evening. This time I'm gonna try to call his cows from him with some screams and some raking. Hope it works cuz I got a long walk back to camp

[JohnFitzgerald]

What about

Hunter Side: I have this herd bull in front of me so I'm going to keep closing the distance until I'm a real threat to him.

Elk Side: This challenger is closing fast. He's at 100, now 80, now 60, and he still coming. Stand and fight or manage my cows off?

[Swede]

It has been my experience when the elk know you are closing fast, so to speak, 100 then 80 then 60 yards, then they know right where you are and leave while the getting is good. If you worked with someone, and stayed back and called while the shooter moved in, they might have a chance.

[JohnFitzgerald]

It has been my experience when the elk know you are closing fast, so to speak, 100 then 80 then 60 yards, then they know right where you are and leave while the getting is good. If you worked with someone, and stayed back and called while the shooter moved in, they might have a chance.

Do bulls need a visual on other bulls before they come together for a fight? I've had bulls leave the herd, usually not very far, to meet the challenger(me). If a bull can get his cows away without a fight, I'm sure he will. But at what point will the bull say too close?

Bull Side: I'm trying to round up these cows and they just keep feeding around. This challenger is getting too close.


If bulls need a visual before they come to defend their herd, please someone make a bull elk decoy!

[Swede]

I think a decoy could help close the deal it he knows you are close. I think where I am hunting they have heard bugling too many times and have discovered it was a hunter, that you are bucking a bad tide trying to convince a skeptical bull to take the risk. Once in a while I have had one come, but after they hang up it is increasingly more difficult. I would submit to you that maybe someone else knows a trick that works.
Often, as in the original scenario, a bull will answer a bugle, but not come. Often they will try to call the cow in, but they don't expose themselves. Putting pressure on the bull only gets him to leave.

[JohnFitzgerald]

I think a decoy could help close the deal it he knows you are close. I think where I am hunting they have heard bugling too many times and have discovered it was a hunter, that you are bucking a bad tide trying to convince a skeptical bull to take the risk. Once in a while I have had one come, but after they hang up it is increasingly more difficult. I would submit to you that maybe someone else knows a trick that works.
Often, as in the original scenario, a bull will answer a bugle, but not come. Often they will try to call the cow in, but they don't expose themselves. Putting pressure on the bull only gets him to leave.

Your area does sound a little tough. But are those bulls callable....IMHO, yes. I like to refer to what I call the "likely" scale. On the left side you have 0, elks survival instinct has complete control. In the middle you have 5, the survival and breeding instinct are equaled out. Then on the far right you have 10, breeding instinct has complete control. Elk are reaction animals....they react based on there instincts.

(*note: the scale in suppose to be 0 on the left and 10 on the right. The forum wont let me order it that way.)

0 Survival
1
2
3
4
5 Equal
6
7
8
9
10 Breeding

There are several items that either give you a minus or a plus. Sometimes you can receive a -5, like when the elk smells you. Other times, the encounter may start at 3 because of hunting pressure. Some bulls may be smelling estrus cows so much that they start at an 8. Point is, some elk are very callable and other elk take a little more work. I think many of the elk you hunt start at a 2-3 range. However, because they respond to calling, they aren't at a 0. As callers we want the bull to be at a 10 because the closer they are to it the easier they are to call in.

Here's just a few of my - and +.

Minus:
Bulls knowing where the sound came from, but not seeing another elk.
Incorrect sounds used at key calling times
Bad elk sounds by the caller
Incorrect elk behavior projected by the hunter
Hunting Pressure
Scented the hunter
Visual alerts
Possibility of loosing cow(s)

Plus:
Audio Keys - Ground noise
Correct sound used at key calling times
Threat of the bulls dominance
Estrus cow(s)
Good elk sounds from the caller
Visual Keys - Decoy
Gain cow without a fight
Curiosity

I believe your elk are callable. The hunter just needs to work harder to swing it to the right side of the 5.

Just my 2-cents.

[Csrbowhunter]

John,

I had a question for you, three years ago I had this nice herd bull that I kept trying to call in. He would bugle every time I'd cow call but if I added even the smallest bull bugle he'd round up his thirty cows and move them away. I would get on this herd every morning and try a different approach and eventually after hours of calling back and fourth Id get aggressive and use a bugle and off they'd go. With only one hunter what could I do?

[JohnFitzgerald]

John,

I had a question for you, three years ago I had this nice herd bull that I kept trying to call in. He would bugle every time I'd cow call but if I added even the smallest bull bugle he'd round up his thirty cows and move them away. I would get on this herd every morning and try a different approach and eventually after hours of calling back and fourth Id get aggressive and use a bugle and off they'd go. With only one hunter what could I do?

How far away were you from this herd bull? If he was answering to your cow calls how come you switched to bugles? Were you trying to force an encounter? More info please.

[Swede]

John: I am reading your posts. Sounds easy.

Note to self: Bring more cookies.

[JohnFitzgerald]

John: I am reading your posts. Sounds easy.

Note to self: Bring more cookies.

Are you trying to bribe me with cookies?

[Csrbowhunter]

I would get into 60-80 yds sometimes but he had so many cows(eyes) with him I couldn't get any closer. I would switch to bugles because he would bugle all day back to me but stay in the middle of his cows. I got in on him five days in a row but couldn't seal the deal. I tried to follow to his bed but he'd go across this really long meadow and bed where I couldn't get to him without being smelled or seen.

[JohnFitzgerald]

How big of a threat did you pose to him? Did you use raking, ground noise, lipbawls, screams, pants, or grunts? Was the bull thinking that SOB is trying to steal one of my cows or was he thinking oh brother not him again! If he stayed in the middle of his cows, he wasn't that worried about you.

If he was answering to cow calls first, I would have continued without bugles. By introducing bull sounds you removed the option of him sneaking a little ways away to snag an estrus cow(you) . Bulls will try to snag any cow, but not at the risk of loosing one they already have. Could you have played out the annoying estrus cow that refuses to come in?

With 30 cows watching , you probably did the right thing by switching to the challenge, but how much did you sell it?

p.s. If this bull is a true "runner", you can also try a tactic that I reserve for final option. Get side hill to the herd, give a short scream, and then run at the herd in attempts to break them up. Once scattered, give short a scream and long cow whine/distress sounds. This works really well if the entire herd doesn't all run one direction in a single file line. And two, the bull doesn't see you. Who cares if the cows do.

[Csrbowhunter]

It was like any bull sound he would just round up his cows and move on. I tried spike bull first,gone. Then the threat 1,2and 3. Then the last two times different cow calls,estrus lost cow ect. The only cool thing was I got a up close look of him horning up his cows. After they left I tried lost cow and he just kept bugling as he left. I'll have to try running into them like you said next time that happens.
One time I swear it looked like he turned to this spike and said "hey go check that out" cuz the spike just about stepped on me then smelled me and ran back to the big bull,then off they went. It was the weirdest thing ever. It looked like he went up to the bull and said " hey boss there's a hunter over there we'd better leave" and they did and didn't stop till they got to their bedding ground. I tried to keep up but that was futile!
Thanks for your help. I'm always trying to learn new tricks for the elk woods. I only get two weeks a year to try it out but you never know what's going to work.

[flystrait]

Herd bulls or bulls with cows are what I seek out every year and some tactics work and some will not IMO. In this situation within the 80 yard mark and the bull is staying put waiting for me to make a move I do. I have run right at them with the most nasty bugle I can muster, It will and has worked to have the bull (herd bull) stand his ground until I can release an arrow. (disclaimer) I use this in dense areas that allow you to close the distance without being seen or smelled. Once that bull hears you coming they tend to go in a defensive mode and stay between you and his cows. Hence I don't worry about all the eyes from the cows. As you have read we all have our own way of doing things and if we can take a little bit from everyone it could make us a more successful in the long run. I will not challenge a bull with cows under 80 yards. And the bulls I speak of are mature bulls in age and stature not just a early season young bull with cows. I don't even think about using a cow call in this situation.

[JohnFitzgerald]

You mentioned a spike in the herd. What time of year was this....pre-rut or rut?

[ElkNut1]

Csr--- I read your situation & have a few thoughts if you don't mind sir. First I'd like to commend you for not forcing the issue with these elk & backing out when you realized the wind would not allow you to go after them in their bedding area, very good thinking! You did many things right because of the fact you did not push them out of the area for 5 days of hunting them. Maintain that mindset & be willing to make a few adjustments in your approach & raise the odds in your favor when like encounters present themselves in the future.

Your best odds of having an opportunity with calling to this group or herd bull was your first attempt! When that failed each succeeding attempt day by day lessened your odds of a shot opportunity as these elk wised up real quick to you & your tactics. As you you've read here many times "Timing" is everything when calling elk that are close. (within 100 yds) But, there is good timing & bad timing, I believe your was on the bad side. I mention this because you gave a good description as to what happened on your first encounter with these elk. You could literally see many of them as well as the herd bull as you imitated a cow/cows & a bull inside a 100yds. This is not a wise decision as all these elk had to do is look in your direction & not see the source of calling or disturbance that represented their species, this can raise the proverbial "red flag" that something isn't right so they become very cautious/nervous & eventually move off after a scan of the area & possibly nervous stare down. Note to self, do not call to elk that are standing or feeding in the open because your odds of taking the herd bull are slim to none. (grin) Yes it's possible to pull in cows or spikes as well as a sneaky juvenile but that's not what you wanted there so stay patient & refrain from any calling.

Instead get a direction they are going & catch them in the timber/cover where calling can now be used correctly! Getting elk to "react" to a situation is key here or pulling on their curiosity, the one used depends on the aggressiveness of this bull. If cows are in or nearing estrus he will have an aggressive attitude & aggressive tactics can be used with great odds. If no cows are in estrus or nearing it then his calling will be minimal with little to no bugling, your best play is now to work on his curiosity or ambush him.

I see in your case you could not follow them to cover because the wind was not good, you did the right thing & left them alone for the next day or evening! Here's where you needed to change your strategy! You saw how ineffective it was to call at them in the open so stay away from that, do not try it again in hopes you get lucky because all you will do is educate them, instead make your own luck! --- Wait at least an hour after the elk have left the meadow then head over to the end of the meadow where they exited & look the area over good. You should be able to see a trail there, from there check out the landscape on both sides of trail well as you follow to the side of the trail (not on it) & look for a knoll or dip/ditch or anything that interrupts the wind direction that heads towards the elk as they move towards bedding. Right there is where you need to be the following morning, you must be there before light or right at light in your ambush spot that puts you in bowrange, you now have a small window of good wind in your favor because that small spot you have found. There should be no need to call from there, no need to give away your position. The only call that may be needed is to stop the bull for the shot, the Nervous-Popping Grunt is best for that.

If there is no good spot in the landscape where the terrain is interrupted where favorable wind will not cooperate for a good ambush spot then consider a quick treestand spot where you can get off the ground 25'-30' up off this trail, this should be high enough to prevent you from being winded. Again, do your setting up well after the elk are in their bedding area so you are not seen, heard or winded.

Your entrance come morning/evening most likely will have you making a big loop to avoid the meadow where the elk are frequenting so give yourself the needed time to beat them to your ambush spot.

ElkNut1

[Swede]

Are you trying to bribe me with cookies?

Not really. When you come over to hunt I will have a good stand for you. I will let you bring the cookies.

Csrbowhunter: I too commend you for showing patience and not pushing the elk out of your area. I hope you learned that here on this forum. Where I hunt there is a lot of pressure on the elk, and very few ground hunters would back off. I have been working a herd many times and had someone come in and spoil the whole opportunity. Sometimes they did not know I was a hunter and sometimes they saw me or my partner and just thought they might take advantage of the situation.
I think Pall made a good point. Just because the elk did not see you and your calls were perfect, they know something is wrong when no elk shows itself.
Anytime elk come or go frequently on a certain path, during hunting hours, I think an ambush is the way to get them.

[JohnFitzgerald]

I actually got the sense that only the long meadow was open country. I invisioned the rest was fairly dense timber. Maybe I'm wrong?

Csrbowhunter - please clarify, when you called could the elk clearly see your location?

[Csrbowhunter]

John,

You are correct that I would be in dense cover when I would first run into them. I could see the cows spreed out everywhere and see just bits and pieces of the bull. Sometimes I would get to them and they'd be on the side of the mtn or sometimes on the top flat but when they'd leave they'd always go down to this meadow. It was long (1/4 mile) but it was like a bowl shape and they'd bed on the other side which was real steep plus the wind swirled really bad over there.
I did kill a bull on the last day chasing that herd to the meadow. I was in the corner of the meadow and I had three bulls above me. One at 3oclock,on at 12oclock and one 9 oclock. All three were going hot and heavy but they all stayed at a safe distance and to be truthful the bull I wanted went the other way from me when I got to the meadow. These were just other bulls that joined in on the fun. In the end the bull at 9oclock is the one that stayed and I killed. Thats the one I posted about earlier in this thread.
The time of year was sept 20th-26th.

The biggest problem with this spot was it would take me 4 hrs to get to the meadow and only about half was easy walking. The rest was that low fern stuff that trips you or go under the timber line where it was grassy and steep which was faster but killed my feet.

Swede, I did learn my patience from here kind of. It was from elknut dvds where he said if you don't run them out of the area they'd still be there the next day. To my surprise that herd just stayed there for the rest of my hunt. But everyday I'd hunt my way back to there because I was never really sure if they'd still be there. Plus there were more bulls in the area. But this one was a nice 6by7 with a raspy voice that I would know it was him as soon as he would answer my calls. I'd get all excited as soon as I would hear him, thinking today is the day I get him. A guy can dream can't he?

Elknut: It's good to know not to call elk in the open because I've done that before and you're right I didn't do very good! It's just really hard not to move back into the cover and call at them. My thinking is I've found them finally now it's time to do something!

[JohnFitzgerald]

Seeing the cows clearly and flashes of the bull, that to me means probably a little too open like Paul suggested. But look at it from the bulls side, would you risk loosing all 30 for 1? With so many cows, it is what it is as times.

Me, I might have worked the uncooperative estrus cow sequence or a hooked cow sequence really hard. Maybe even flashed a decoy. But then again, this bulls sounds like he was content with 30 and he really didn't care about challengers until they were right in his face. His comfort zone was very small.

I too have a bull like this. We call him "The Growler". I've hunted him every way possible but still he eludes me.

[elkmtngear]

If bulls need a visual before they come to defend their herd, please someone make a bull elk decoy!

Elk Butt Decoy, John. Bull cannot determine sex! Probably why the elk butt slipcover is our number one seller.

In a 2 man scenario...get the shooter out front, caller behind the decoy raking brush, and shaking the elk butt every now and then.

Decoying with one guy is a lot tougher, but it can be done.

I have had elk within 10 feet of that elk butt, when calling in dark timber.

[WapitiTalk1]

Similar but a bit different than JF's original scenario

Hunters Side: Yep, he's gotta be less than 100 yards from us (hunter talking to buddy). We've moved as quiet as possible in this dang alder and we are now on the same elevation, and, he's still bugling every 5 minutes or so. Should we continue to remain silent without any calling and stay with Plan A?

Bull's Side: There it is again! Something has moved from lower in the draw, to my left, and is now moving directly towards me and my harem on the same elevation! I can hear what sounds like movement of maybe, two predators.

u]Hunters Side[/u]: Whaddya think Shawn, we're within 100 yards and he just screamed at his cows.. Sounds like he's getting their attention, getting nervous, and may move out at any time. He had to hear us moving through this thick crap. Should we set up and call or just continue to move towards them and let things materialize?

Bull's Side:: Enough, we're getting out of here, we left the Rainy Creek drainage because of the wolf pack that took down Maude's calf. They've followed us here and are moving in. Let's go, now!

Me? I'm gonna set up my buddy and let this bull know we're elk and try to light him up when I get within 100 yards. Anybody else got another slant on how to play this scenario? Remember, it's very, very thick and a hearing challenged elk could hear your approach. And yes, we're hunting in predator country (wolves, big cats, hunters).

[JohnFitzgerald]

I agree, calling is the better option especially with 62 eyes watching for movement. I hate ambush......not that it doesn't work for others. But it's never worked for me. I zig, they zag. ARG! Why does it seem like every morning elk take a different trail. LOL!

[Csrbowhunter]

I would setup and do some calling but if that didn't work but the bull kept bugling then I'd either stay and call and let my buddy loop around for a shot or call for awhile then call while I was leaving. In both situations I wouldn't worry to much about the noise. For me the elk seem to spook easier when there is no noise. All of this also depends on terrain,cover and wind!

[JohnFitzgerald]

I would setup and do some calling but if that didn't work but the bull kept bugling then I'd either stay and call and let my buddy loop around for a shot or call for awhile then call while I was leaving. In both situations I wouldn't worry to much about the noise. For me the elk seem to spook easier when there is no noise. All of this also depends on terrain,cover and wind!

Be careful with the loop around method. Those cows will pick off the sneaky shooter long before the bull does.

[Trophyhill]

The "how much room do you give other hunters sparked this thought.

Hunter 1: (not with me) locate bugle from below from bottom of drainage 400 yards away.
Bull: bugles with chuckles.
Hunter 2 (me) hmmmm, this bull is close. 200 yards slightly down hill and to the side. I'm gonna listen for a moment and see what happens.
Hunter 1: bugle with chuckles
Bull: round up bugle
Hunter 1: distinct sound of hyper-lip from below then a hoochie mama.

Your move

[Swede]

Trophy: It all depends. You are not required by any standard of sportsmanship to pack up and leave because someone gets a response to their Hoochie Mama. I may stay put to wait and see what takes place. If I am reasonably close and can move, without messing up things for the other hunter, I would place myself where I anticipate closing the back door, so to speak, on the elk. I would stay quiet, but the other hunter(s) don't own the elk, and as long as you are not messing up their hunt, the elk are fair game. You were there honestly and did not interfere with those guys, so you can do what you please. Just my thoughts.

[Trophyhill]

Trophy: It all depends. You are not required by any standard of sportsmanship to pack up and leave because someone gets a response to their Hoochie Mama. I may stay put to wait and see what takes place. If I am reasonably close and can move, without messing up things for the other hunter, I would place myself where I anticipate closing the back door, so to speak, on the elk. I would stay quiet, but the other hunter(s) don't own the elk, and as long as you are not messing up their hunt, the elk are fair game. You were there honestly and did not interfere with those guys, so you can do what you please. Just my thoughts.

thanks for the response Swede! those are along the lines of what I was thinking. my thoughts would be in this situation that these guys are probably going to sit back and "hope" the elk are going to come to them. especially after hearing the "round up" bugle and the guys below continuing to cow call with 2 very distinct calls that are easily recognizable. that elk is getting his cows together and getting ready to leave so those hunters down below have no chance or very little. however they have kept the bull vocal so I see no need to call in this situation but rather move into a good ambush position above them on their way out.