New to site/Elk hunts

[Pac8541]

Good morning,

I hail from AZ and am preparing for an elk hunt this fall. I have bowhunted for close to 20 yrs but almost all of it whitetail and never something the size of an elk. What previously worked for whitetail does not appear to be sufficient for a bigger deer.

I shoot an '06 Bowtech Allegiance at 70lbs and 27.5" DL. My previous arrow set was the Carbon Tech Rhino 45/70's at 26" and 100 gr BH's. This yielded enough overall energy for smaller deer but I don't think its gonna be good enough anymore. Speed was respectable but total weight was lighter than expected and FOC was low.

I'm sure this has been asked a thousand times on numerous forums but I'm having a bit of trouble solving this equation:
A 500gr total arrow weight traveling in excess of 250fps with an FOC of 17% or greater.

I'm coming close based on calculations coming out of the OT2 software but without the actual experience of having shot an elk-sized animal, I don't know what my "floor" should be. What do you guys consider the minimums to be for speed, arrow weight, and FOC? Or stated another way, in what order of priority would you rate each of those? Please discount the "make sure you're using a quality, razor sharp broadhead" perspective; I'll be using something along the lines of VPA or GK fixed blade units on the sharp end.

Isn't there a penetration test floating around here that one of the members conducted? I'd like to read the whole thing after seeing a few comments about it while searching this site. Thanks folks, I appreciate your help.

-Jeff

[WapitiTalk1]

Welcome to "the" elk forum Jeff. Glad to have you on board. Now I'll defer to others to answer your technical question. I know my bow has a string, a sight, shoots arrows pretty fast and has pointy things on the end. That's about it

[Willie makit]

Note to self, "don't let RJ work on my archery stuff"

I'm in the process of building my arrows now, 400-425 gr seems to be the the recommended minimum weight, but I'm no elk expert, heck I'm not even a spert.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3432&p=40431&hilit=Arrow+weight#p40426

Welcome aboard.

[Swede]

Welcome to elk camp Jeff. It is good to have you here at the campfire. Don't be spooked about killing elk. You have plenty of bow and some to spare with both of them. Can you draw them smoothly on the level and hold? Can you do that when it is cold and your muscles are not at their peak? I have killed elk with less poundage and a 355 grain arrow. I would recommend not going lighter than 400 grains, but that is not an absolute. The most important thing is to hit them in the vitals with a razor sharp broad-head. Cnelk has showed us that some weed eater string down the full length of an carbon arrow shaft will increase the weight without changing the spine.
Sounds to me like you are in good shape as far as your bow is concerned. Hang out here and you can pick up some ideas from some of the local characters.

[Swede]

Willie: For sure don't let RJ work on your archery equipment. The other day he was drilling out the bottoms of all his arrow inserts where the broad heads are attached. Apparently he got this bright idea he could increase the KE of his arrow by stuffing the shafts full of cream cheese. The idea he had was to fill the shafts before each hunt and shoot his elk with a cheese load or eat the stuffing from his arrow if he got hungry first. He had a problem when a big bull came in at 30 yards. He is normally deadly at that range, but he just could not remember which arrows were still full and which he had emptied.

[WapitiTalk1]

Yah, yah.. I know some stuff. I know the type of cream cheese makes all the difference in the KE (karma effectiveness). I do however, have to figure out how to make my arrows stop smelling when it gets really hot out and I forget to eat the ACL (arrow cheese load) in the morning before the temps soar.

[Mikeha33]

There's his mistake. You can't use cream cheese. When the mold sets in, it throws the balance way off.











You have to use Cheez-Whiz. Geez. Some people's kids...

[Swede]

Don't feel too bad RJ. You know how Scotch cnelk is. He gets no end of joy at finding a garage sale jewel or a Goodwill store prize. Well he got the idea he could save a little more by using his arrow shafts as containers. So he filled his with little candy BBs from his girlfriend's pantry. One day I was hungry and Brad was not paying any attention, so I drained a few of his shafts. I did not have any of that candy, so I replaced it with regular BBs. Three days later he was still wondering why he heard a clinking sound every time he went to the toilet.

[WapitiTalk1]

Seriously. Are arrows really hollow? Ok smarty pants, if they are hollow, why don't they float away like balloons? Oh, is that why we put the pointy things on them? See, I'm learning

[Indian Summer]

Since you want to become an elk hunter and this is THE hands down number one place on the World Wide Web to accomplish that.... I'm not afraid to steer you to another site to find something that can help. Just promise me that you'll find your way back here! LOL... don't worry, you will. Every dang day!

Go to http://forums.bowsite.com/TF/bgforums/ At the top put your cursor on Bowsite Resources and go to the bottom choice and click on "Tools" On the right you'll se arrow charts etc. But the best thing is the kinetic energy calculator. Punch your data in there and you'll come up with the only really important factor when it comes to penetration.

Welcome aboard bud!

[Willie makit]

Since you want to become an elk hunter and this is THE hands down number one place on the World Wide Web to accomplish that....

Yep, no doubt about this! Great guys on here to help you with your elk hunting and make you think, just hope your not already thinking "what the hecks wrong with some of the guys on this site". Personally, now that the elk season is over I think the lack of thin air might be getting to some of them.

[Trophyhill]

Go to http://forums.bowsite.com/TF/bgforums/

Thanks for the tip. I've never noticed that tool over there. My 390 gr arrows/bh's are packing a serious punch at 92

[JJ Overkill]

welcome to the forum, good to have ya here

a 26" arrow is going to be a monster to build with a 17% FOC and 500gr total. I do know of one combination that might fit the bill. look for the PSE black mambas on OT2. you can get a stainless steel insert and cap that covers your insert with them . they come with a 10.5 gpi weight tube. add a 125 or 150 gr head to this thing and you will get the arrow your looking for. with that short of an arrow you will probably need a good bit of weight up front for the proper spine.

I really haven't been paying much attention to other arrow manufactures lately and seeing what they are offering currently. just thought id put this out there. let me know how the numbers look on ot2. im curious as to what they are.

[easeup]

welcome to the site mr. pac.

you have already realized swede is the villain and phantom is the good guy.

[WapitiTalk1]

welcome to the site mr. pac.

you have already realized swede is the villain and phantom is the good guy.

Yes! Swede is a scoundrel of the first order. Trying to tell me arrows are hollow... HA! I'm smarter than that

[Pac8541]

I'm at work right now and don't have the exact numbers in front of me but the closest I think I came to what I'd like was with either the ACC Pro Hunter and the Beman ICS Hunter Pro in a 300 spine with a 200gr BH. Might've been a 175 head and some weight in the insert. Anyway OT2 spit out something like 245fps, 489 total wt, 16% FOC, and a dynamic spine of 340. I believe this was for a 26.5" shaft.

I sent an email to a recommended pro shop for some guidance and he asked me to call him over the weekend. One of the issues I'm having with the software is I don't know exact values to input for every component of an arrow. Or what options are available regarding different nocks, inserts, and bushings for each type of shaft. Stuff that works on std sized shafts might not work on slim shafts, and vice versa. I'm not interested in adapters or outserts like the VAP arrows or anything Deep 6. I want to shoot GK heads or VPA and not have stuff break, bend without a really good reason, or not work due to thread size and pitch. Thanks for everything so far. I'll look at Bowsite's resources when I get home.

[JJ Overkill]

I forgot to mention the black mambas are a 337spine (PSE has a weird spine numbering system) and if im not mistaken there gpi is 9.2 or close to it.

[JJ Overkill]

just wondering why are you looking for a 500gr arrow? anything in the 450 range would work perfect. you would have a heavy arrow and descent speed for sure. im sitting at 560grs with my 80# Omen

[BMF11]

Welcome to the site Jeff. My setup is very similar to yours. 05 Allegiance, 28" draw, 100 grain tip on Gold tip pro hunters and actually dropped my weight last season from 71# down to 66#. Last season was my first hunting elk with my bow. I was planning on tinkering with my setup last year as well to add some weight and FOC. I had never attempted to kill an animal larger than deer with it. I decided that I couldn't change something that wasn't broken! When I put the time into practicing enough, my setup shoots exceptional and has since I bought it. I realize many factors are important in killing an animal humanely with an arrow. The number one factor is accuracy. Don't get too hung up on statistics with your setup if you can shoot it well. For what it's worth, I shot my bull last year at 41 yards with my setup mentioned above tipped with a 100 grain Slick Trick. I know I didn't really answer your technical questions but I wanted to let you know that your setup will be sufficient for bigger deer/Elk!

[Pac8541]

I'm after a 500gr arrow primarily for the energy something like that carries, both kinetic and momentum, and because I want the bow to work efficiently and quietly. It's fairly quiet now but heavier certainly won't hurt in that dept. And with as short a draw as I have I FEEL like I need more boot in this arrow.

Those of you who hunt regularly out west, are the skinny shafts a big advantage with the wind? And is what I'm seeking in speed reasonable?

[Jaquomo]

Not sure why this didn't post the first time, but you don't need that kind of EFOC unless you are tinkerer. A balanced 450 gr arrow with 12% will fly like a rocket and be great on elk. Thin diameter shafts do improve penetration. Probably also a little better in the wind but anything 27.5 inches long with wings on each end will drift and we-wah.

I shoot trad, 450 gr shafts with 12-13% FOC, 125 grain Muzzys, with a setup that produces a whopping 37-39 lbs KE. But they're tuned to get Robin Hoods on the target range. That setup kills bulls dead-dead. Have never had an issue with penetration except for two hit squarely in the shoulderblade, and they lived to rut another day. Most of my shots either poke out the other side or stop in the offside shoulder.

This is really a religious discussion. Your bow will shoot a little quieter with a little heavier arrow, but no need to go overboard. Your outfit will be great for elk as long as your arrows are tuned to fly like darts. If not, a 600 grain arrow is questionable.

[JJ Overkill]

heres another option I can make based of the arrows I have laying around.

pse radial w-weave 400 SLT 9.2gpi. with mine cut at 28 1/2" four fletched with vanetech vanes 4grs each, 11gr insert, 200gr tip. 510grs total. subtract 18.4 and it comes up as 491.6grs. im not about to cut off the extra 2 1/2" to find the foc but mine come in at 19.82% foc.

is 500grs your minimum limit or is close good enough?

[Swede]

Over the years I have shot wood, fiberglass, aluminum and carbon arrows. Wind against the arrow has rarely been a problem. You probably get more resistance with long fletching than the difference in shaft size. In addition the fletch is at one end potentially causing more stability problems. I do notice a change when I change over to broad heads with a strong cross wind.
Just as I would say a 30-06 is a better elk caliper that a 257 Roberts, I think a 70# DW bow is better than a 60# DW bow. I don't think the difference is near as great between the bows. The difference is probably more like the difference between the 30-06 and a 308W. In all cases shot placement is the most important factor.

[Pac8541]

You guys are great and this discussion is helping more than you may know.

If I widen my window a little regarding total weight and FOC that opens up a lot more options. However, I remember reading somewhere here after searching the topic where, Elknut is it?, mentioned something about a range of 6.5-7 gr/lb of draw weight. For a 70 lb dw that works out to 455-490gr. I picked 500 just because it's a round number and it has a feel-good factor. Actually, since reading that grain range I've been looking more at the gr/lb number than the total weight.

And regarding FOC, perhaps I've been influenced too much by other archery forums or the Alaska Bowhunting Supply site but everyone seems to be bat shit crazy over this particular statistic. Combine all this with my naturally over thinking personality and it's worked me into an obsession. Professionally I have to be that way so everything feels normal about it. If you guys are saying something closer to 450 is sufficient with a FOC of 12% or so then I'll start crunching numbers and see what comes up. I'm sure my list of candidates will be both long and distinguished.

[Indian Summer]

Over the years I have shot wood, fiberglass, aluminum and carbon arrows.

Over the years Swede has killed them with clubs and spears and by driving them over cliffs and such. Just sayin'

[tdirks]

Thats good Joe! Course the "driving them over the cliff" thing was just done once! The pack out was a Booger!!

[>>>---WW---->]

First of all Pac8541" (wELKome) to the best elk hunting site on the web.

I want you to know that what I say is the Gospel truth and I would never pick on or poke fun at other Elknuts like Swede, cnelk, RJ/aka: Phantom, or John. Oops! I almost forgot Indian Summer.

But seriously, why 17% FOC and 500 gr. arrows? That's asking a lot out of a 26 1/2 inch arrow. If you want that, you need to find some old Micro-Flite fiberglass arrows. And even then, you'd have to figure out how to add weight to them.

Most any good whitetail setup will work for elk barring the speed freaks. FOC of 10-12 with a good strong cut on contact head in the 100-125 gr range with a compound bow will work just fine.

What is more important is a well tuned arrow from a well tuned bow, and good shot placement.

[Jaquomo]

[quote="Pac8541"]And regarding FOC, perhaps I've been influenced too much by other archery forums or the Alaska Bowhunting Supply site but everyone seems to be bat shit crazy over this particular statistic.

Lots of guys with too much time on their hands and minimal experience overthink it to the point where they convince themselves you MUST have EFOC, must have "X" arrow weight, KE or momentum to kill an elk. Then they find like-minded parishoners who believe the same way, they worship together, and proselytize their dogma to anyone who will listen. They chastise and scold anyone who doesn't follow their doctrine.

Exactly why I don't go on any trad forums, because there are droves of posters eager to tell me my setup isn't adequate to kill elk, and I should switch to 65# draw, 600 grain arrow, two-blade heads, whatever, if I want to kill an elk, because somebody else says so.

[Pac8541]

Yeah, I've been on forums a number of times in other endeavors and found the same thing and it drives me nuts. However, when someone is relatively new to whatever interest they're pursuing its easy to fall into the mob rule network. Sometimes the kool aid works on smell alone...

I've opened my options up a little; I'm still gonna seek a heavier arrow than what I'm shooting now which, according to OT2 sits around 400gr at 271fps and 11% foc. I would really like to get total weight up around the 450 mark if for no other reason than peace of mind. It'll make me feel better and increase my confidence and as I'm sure most of you know, is a very large percentage of the shot process.

You mentioned 2-blade BH's specifically, is there a general consensus around here regarding specific broadheads? I figure its still pretty much personal preference but wanted to get the feedback from those here, on an actual ELK site. I've killed deer with 2, 3, and 4 blade heads but have always kind of had a thing for 2 bladers. I remember the magazine stories as a kid of Myles Keller harvesting awesome animals with a short recurve and a Zwickey. Legendary stuff. I'm currently looking at the VPA heads and although the 2 blade heads look great, the 3 blade versions look absolutely wicked. I have 3, 2-blade GK Silver Flames and they shoot well but I can hear them all the way to the target. Not sure I like that.

Opinions?

[Jaquomo]

Broadheads are another religious topic with elk hunters. I've killed elk with everything from Zwickeys and Bear razorheads with super-glued bleeders, to the strange 6-blade Martins (gone from the market, thankfully) and everything in-between. I prefer a multi-blade for a broader entrance and exit hole, and more lateral cutting potential as the broadhead passes through the animal. My last 25 or so elk have been killed with Muzzy 125s with a sharpened trocar tip, both the 4-blade and the 3-blade.

Lots of people hate mechanicals. But a ton of elk are killed with good mechanicals like Rages. I have no opinion on that, except that a good friend who I've hunted with in Australia, who is truly a world-class bowhunter, kills everything from boars to stags to buffalo with Rages and has great success. But he also shoots an 80# compound, so energy loss on blade opening is not an issue with him.

I killed a free-range red stag in Oz with the 3-blade VPA 125s, and they performed very well. Flew great, strong head.

Everyone has a different opinion on broadheads, and they are all correct if someone believes enough in their reasons and tune their super-sharp broadheads to fly true. IMO, flight and sharpness is way more important than any particular broadhead style for elk.

[Pac8541]

With regard to the relationship between static and dynamic spine, lets say I have identically equipped arrows but one has a static spine of 300 and the other 340. The dynamic spine for both comes out at .340.

Is it better to have the dynamic match the static or run high on the stiff side? And if I choose to run high, how much is the limit? I mean, if the dynamic specs out at .351 is that acceptable for a 300 spined shaft?

I'm discounting arrows that compute out on the weak side altogether and would actually prefer to have them slightly on the stiff side but this case is a little different. The hard differences between the 2 appear to be 5fps, about 18gr in total weight, and about a 1/2% in foc.

Any opinions on fletching? I've used 2" blazers but nothing else. Any others I should consider?