shot placement judgement

[JJ Overkill]

ive followed the mark your x threads from last yr and the ones popping up now with great interest. ive seen people say they would pass on shots that i personally call a slam dunk. but the one thing i don't want people to take way from these threads is just because i would be comfortable taking these shots i don't want others to try and push or force a shot. i believe it all comes down to your confidence in your shooting ability and your equipment. i shoot very often and play with arrow setups until i find what i want. that is part of why i fell confident in taking steep angle shots. i have a good idea of elk vitals and how my arrow will impact them. all of this plays into my decision as to what shots i will take.

i know there are people on here who don't shoot a heavy poundage bow and don't have a long draw length.

i hope this will put my shot placements on the threads into perspective for others.

one other thing i am curios about is how members of a hunting party play into some of our decisions as well. i know me and trophy hill have the same thoughts on shots we will take and have talked about steep angled and frontal shots. for some camps these shots may be taboo.

what say you? what goes into your decisions making process on shot angles

or perhaps im over confident with my shooting and setup. which has its own set of problems then

[Mikeha33]

I personally would not let anybody I was hunting with talk me in or out of any shot. I could care less if they approve of it. We all know what kind of archer each other are long before the hunt, and I wouldn't say a word to my partner, if he felt comfortable with a shot, then I feel comfortable with his decision to shoot. I won't consider a shot that I am not 100% confident in. I'm the one that had spent countless hours staring through the peep of my bow, and I know what I can and cannot do. That being said, here in Kansas, I don't have many areas where I can readily practice steep angle shots, so I will avoid that situation if possible. I do use what I can though, climbing onto the peak of my house and shooting targets below, and shooting from a treestand, but really steep, 25+ yards, is just hard for me to practice. I'll get a few chances to go out to strip pits (man made "hills" here in SE KS from surface mining coal) and shoot up and down, and it's great exercise as well, but it's not as easy as flinging a few in the yard. I'll do my best to prepare, but just like the elevation, some things are more difficult to prepare for.

[Swede]

I personally would not let anybody I was hunting with talk me in or out of any shot. I could care less if they approve of it.

Would you expect those friends that advised against the shot to spend a day or two of their hunt, searching for your wounded animal? With some of the animals I see pictured facing the shooter, it is not a matter of being able to hit a stationary target at 30 yards. These targets can move at the blink of an eye, or the movement of a bow string. That spot you shot at could move two feet before your arrow arrives. I'm sorry, but I find the attitude that "no one can advise me", to be very troubling.
These threads are teaching tools. No one will force anyone to do or not do anything. I have held off when I was advised to do so. I cannot tell what would have happened, but my conscience is clear.

[stringunner]

Shot placement is highly debated in our camp. We have four shooters in camp. 3 of us have been hunting/shooting archery for 20+ years and the fourth is new in the past year, she keeps her shots to 30 yards or less and broadside no matter what, this is her self-imposed requirement based on her confidence level. The other three (including myself) have shot placement debates all throughout the year. We all have different confidence levels and impose our own personal limits, but never try and "stretch" each other to take a shot that one might not be comfortable with. I might take a shot that my dad won't and he might take one that wouldn't and that's fine. At the end of the day, as hunting partners, we each hold each other accountable to take the best possible shot we feel confident with in the moment.

[quarbles]

this guy i was out with last year would talk about being able to make a headshot at 40 yards with an open sighted rifle. an open sighted rifle he had borrowed a day and half before because it was 'pretty much just like his, only better'. i was terrified that he would get an opportunity......
i think some people want to be 'that guy' that can make 'that shot' so badly that they are willing to try and haven't taken into consideration the amount of quality repetitions 'that guy' has invested.
the ability to maintain clear thinking and composure is also tremendous.
i would much prefer being haunted by a quarry i passed through lack of confident geometry than by one i wounded. said geometry, my emotions, the weather, geography, light and prey's disposition.... all collectable data must equal upmost confidence given the situation or i'm just an observer.

[Trophyhill]

I think "knowing" an elks anatomy and "knowing" you can make the shot adds up to confidence and that makes for a deadly elk killer. I think talking about different scenarios is great and is very educational. When angles are tight and the kill zone is small, it's no time to be indecisive or be shakey. A good dose of ice in the vanes is a must when "The Moment of Truth" is at hand.

[Mikeha33]

Swede,
I totally agree that that that sounds troubling I don't mean it like I wouldn't
take advice. What I mean, like I said a few sentences later, was there is no way
I'd consider ANY shot I wasn't 100% confident in. That means if it is marginal, or I'm
not sure, I wouldn't need anybody to talk me out if it. I haven't stuck an elk yet, But I have
been bow hunting for quite a while, and consider myself a pretty good shot, know what
I'm capable of (& what I'm not) and am familiar with the animals anatomy long before
stepping into the field to hunt them.
What I said sounded like a real arrogant, d-bag thing to say, lol, I was just trying to
emphasize that I wouldn't need to be talked out of a bad shot, since Im confidant
wouldn't take it, or be able to be talked into a marginal shot. I've lost deer before,
and it's a horrible feeling.

[jmez]

If I hit an elk bad I would not expect the guys in my camp to spend days looking for the elk. My bad I would look for it. Shot selection is a personal thing. You can be advised but no one can tell you what you are comfortable with.

Topographical anatomy is paramount. You should be able to look at the critter and see what is inside. Practice your shooting and be confident in your set up. Set your ranges and angles before you go hunting and stick to that, period.

[Swede]

Mikeha33: Thanks. Your response is perfect. I am very aware that what is written is sometimes not what I intended. If you hunt with me and make a miscalculation, we will work together to make the best of the situation. I agree with the other responses on this thread. This is about learning and at the same time knowing out abilities. We are not all the same. Personally I know archers that are both better and worse than me. I just have to know what is right for me. Again thanks for the feedback.

[Willie makit]

I think the most important thing on these "shoot" threads is to help the newer guys get a feel for and be a little more prepared for the moment of truth. These are very good exercises because nine times out of ten in hunting situations you wont have time to analyze every little detail, it needs to be automatic. Being confident that you can Robin Hood 1/2 dozen arrows at 60 yards back to back is kinda irrelevant to the exercise.

Every archer SHOULD thrive to be the best shot he can, but this is hunting there are other uncontrollable and unforeseeable things that can and will happen. Sure each of us need to realistically gauge our shooting ability and factor that in our decision. The shot that gives us the best opportunity for a quick, painless as possible kill should be paramount.

Whenever possible you should leave yourself some margin for error and strive for none, every situation is different. For this reason paying close attention to the description of the picture is critical and most likely will affect our decisions whether or not we take the shot.

[easeup]

there are a number of younger elknuts on this forum so the grayhairs must throw in some experience also.

I do not disagree at all with what has been posted above or in the other threads on this subject. But here is the deal just as Swede has cautiously brought to our attention......if a hunter takes enough of those less than perfect shot angles, he IS going to loose some game. It has happened to many of us too. Nothing ruins a hunt as a elk that is hit and cant be found. Elk are big and tough and more so than a WT or other smaller big game critters.
So those on the forum that say wait, too risky on the post; please keep in mind they are thinking there may be a chance for a better shot angle which will ensure a elk on the ground you kind find.

[Trumkin the Dwarf]

There are a lot of angles put up here where I wouldn't take the shot. Why? When I hunt with a longbow 25-30 yards is my max range on a broadside shot. I might take a 10-12 yard frontal shot. But beyond that, it is too far for me to feel comfortable shooting it. I have the ability to make that shot, but not the confidence, if that makes sense. Having the self awareness to pass on a shot where you aren't confident is a huge part of being a good hunter in my opinion.

[Washington Wapiti]

Good thread Jeremy, thanks for posting. What goes into my decision making is knowledge of anatomy, knowing my effective range and what I can/can't do shooting-wise. But also real-world experiences; good and bad. It only takes one time of following a nearly non-existent, microscopic blood trail all over the mountainside for half-a-day, only to not recover your quarry to realize what angle shots are good or not. A good open frontal shot at 20-30 yards with a 2-5 mph wind, I'd feel comfortable taking. That same 20-30 yards and 2-5 mph wind on a low-percentage, quartering-to shot could leave me blasting into a shoulder, resulting in a mild limp and very little blood to speak of. Bye, bye backstraps . . .

[Still Hunter]

You'll see my opinion on where to take a shot to be very conservative. My dad drilled double lung shots into me since I was a young hunter. If I don't see a good angle on both lungs. I simply don't shoot. I've never lost an animal, so I guess dad knew what he was talking about.

I will say it's difficult to do sometimes, and i've been tempted to take bad angle shots. Especially, on the last day of the hunt. I'm happy to say I always resisted the temptation, but I understand when others give in to it.

[JJ Overkill]

You'll see my opinion on where to take a shot to be very conservative. My dad drilled double lung shots into me since I was a young hunter. If I don't see a good angle on both lungs. I simply don't shoot. I've never lost an animal, so I guess dad knew what he was talking about.

I will say it's difficult to do sometimes, and i've been tempted to take bad angle shots. Especially, on the last day of the hunt. I'm happy to say I always resisted the temptation, but I understand when others give in to it.

im impressed with your commitment to only take a D lung shot. that would be hard for a lot of us, me included. personally im thinking of the shot opportunities your pass up. but we all have our own ethics on whats a proper shot and whats not. and as we can all see they very drastically from one person to another.

thanks for telling us how you pick your shots ive been very curious on your shot selection

[Still Hunter]

You'll see my opinion on where to take a shot to be very conservative. My dad drilled double lung shots into me since I was a young hunter. If I don't see a good angle on both lungs. I simply don't shoot. I've never lost an animal, so I guess dad knew what he was talking about.

I will say it's difficult to do sometimes, and i've been tempted to take bad angle shots. Especially, on the last day of the hunt. I'm happy to say I always resisted the temptation, but I understand when others give in to it.

im impressed with your commitment to only take a D lung shot. that would be hard for a lot of us, me included. personally im thinking of the shot opportunities your pass up. but we all have our own ethics on whats a proper shot and whats not. and as we can all see they very drastically from one person to another.

thanks for telling us how you pick your shots ive been very curious on your shot selection

Exactly. My way is pretty strict, but it works for me. Everybody has to decide what works for them, and stay with it.

[Jaquomo]

I'm in Still Hunter's camp on this one. I have no problem with those who take frontal shots at reasonable ranges if they're confident they can make the shot every time. Even perfect broadside shots can go wrong sometimes. Weird quartering-to angles, running shots, 90 yard shots, and up-the-wazoo are a different story, but ethics are the property of the individual behind the bow.

I've spent a lifetime crafting broadside/quartering away shots, and plan my setups to create that shot because I believe it provides the greatest margin of error and the broadest window into the vitals. The funny thing is that so many frontal angles become broadside/quartering away with a little patience. But shooting a stickbow also gives me the ability to draw and shoot them on the turn, where a compound won't allow that unless the shooter has been holding and aiming through the entire sequence, which could take minutes.

Patience at the moment of truth seems to be in short supply with many inexperienced bowhunters or those desperate for a kill, so they'll risk a marginal shot, the elk dies, and that then becomes an acceptable shot the next time.

[LckyTylr]

I haven't released an arrow at an Elk yet. I'm in the camp of the successful whitetail hunters that understand WT anatomy and have killed a bunch of 'em. I take only broadside or quartering away shots at very low angles. I have assumed the responsibility of learning Elk anatomy by any means available, mostly sites like this with folks that have experience.

This year, I was at full draw 3 different times on a HUGE 6-point. All 3 times, he was broadside . . . and all 3 times, he wouldn't step clear into a shooting lane. First time was at 50 yards . . . two more steps. Second time was at 15 yards . . . 3 more steps! If it had been a 3D target, I would take and make that shot 8 out of 10 times without hitting one of the many small branches between myself and the elk. 8 out of 10 is NOT what I consider to be an ethical percentage when it comes to living creatures. Third time was at 50 yards again . . . 2 more steps. It was just painful to NOT release an arrow and I have dreams of those encounters. The memory of that bull will be with me for the rest of my days, but at least I have the satisfaction of knowing that he will likely be there next year for me to hunt again, not wounded and lost to the wolves.

If I don't know deep down that it's a 10/10 chance for a quick and humane kill, I won't shoot. All of the WT's that I have killed have been in this category. I have lost one, it still haunts me. At 23 yards on an unaware doe and a very fast/quiet bow, she ducked and I hit her under the spine. I spent the next two days scouring the nearby bedding areas and draws looking for her. She would have been my 4th WT with a bow and I nearly quit archery hunting after the experience for fear of wounding more animals that I have so much respect for.

[>>>---WW---->]

I'm sure Jaquomo or maybe cnelk will remember this. And hopefully they may be able to come up with some information for all of us.

There used to be a lady bowhunter by the name of Sherri Fraker, Farker, or something like that. I think she may have lived around Elizabeth, Colorado. I'm not sure of the last name or the town.

But anyhow, she had a deer decoy model that you could see through that showed the insides of a deer. If I remember right, you could place an arrow through the decoy from various angles and see just which vital organs the arrow went through from just about any angle.

If any of you guys on here have recollection of this, please post it for us. I can't find anything so far.

[Jaquomo]

Bill, yes, I do remember. Shari Fraker just died a couple months ago, unfortunately. She was a huge asset to bowhunting education, and a truly great solo bowhunter in her own right. Funny, but her husband had no interest in it so she would just take off for the whole month of September by herself. She killed a LOT of elk, too. 17 in a row at one point.

Don't know what became of the 3-D decoy model she used, but it was great. Especially for steep downhill (treestand) angles, and also to demonstrate that the so-called "void" is a myth. Her husband died some time ago so presumably she donated all her material to a bowhunting club somewhere. I have all of the 2-D cutaways she used in her shot placement classes to show organs and bone structure, and turned them into transparencies for overlays that I've used in my own shot placement seminars.