I'll Be You...........Show Me

[Still Hunter]

Yes, I know. I was leaving the forum. This forum is more instructional than any other forum i've ever seen. I came up with a new idea that would be fun for me, and maybe you too. Beyond that, it might really help some new guys to elk hunting. This will be aimed at those who are new to elk hunting, or have limited experience. It's also aimed at the non resident who might be on the fence about coming out west for elk hunting. It's also aimed at the solo DIY hunter. This scares off a lot of hunters. Coming to a new state alone to hunt for elk at high altitudes is something to not be taken lightly. Lets see if it can be done.

What i'm going to do is be you. It wouldn't help a bit if I hunt my own unit. I know it too well, and I know where the elk are. I've never hunted unit 55, and it's close enough for me to drive to everyday during the hunt. So, this gives someone new the have option of not investing in all the camping gear they need. Try it first, and see if you like it. Of course if someone has all the gear, and wants to camp. They can do that too, and we'll talk about that later.

Ok, we have the unit we're going to hunt, and we know where we're going to stay at night. Camp, or motel. Your choice. Now we need to know what season we're going to hunt, and are we hunting for a bull or cow? Since i'm the one standing in for you. Those decisions are already made. I used up my points last year, so I don't have points to get a bull tag unless I hunt OTC. That's not an option for me, so we'll be hunting for a cow. Not a bad idea for someone new to elk hunting, so it's not a bad way to go anyway. You can also get a point towards a later bull hunt if you decide you like this 1st hunt. Take a point, and pick a cow as your 2nd choice. Last choice is what season? In this case there's just 2 choices for me. Muzzleloader, or 1st rifle. Unit 55 has an elk herd of 15,000. Good numbers, but unfortunately it also has a lot of hunters. For muzzy season which also mean during bow season, and deer season. It has 1085 hunters. It's a big unit, but that's a lot of hunters. You can double that number for later rifle seasons which is why an OTC tag is not considered. So, we have 1st rifle left. It has 660 hunters, and they are all rifle hunters. No deer, no bows. Just rifles with everybody hunting for elk. 380 for cows, and the rest for bulls. The success rate is higher for 1st rifle. The disadvantage to 1st rifle is it's only a 5 day hunt compared to 9 days for muzzy. It's also at the end of the rut instead of in the rut for muzzy. It is colder in 1st rifle, and that could mean some snow for tracking, and the cooler temps will help keep the meat cool. Important for a solo hunter. Personally, i'm leaning towards the 1st rifle, but this decision will be made by all of you. Remember, i'm you, and not me. I'm taking your place. This is your hunt.

Next will be. Where do I hunt? This is where you all have to get together, and tell me where to go. You know the unit. Someone post the map. You've had this exercise quite a bit lately, but know you can put it into reality. Instead of say this is where you'd go. You'll be saying.........Pete..Go here. Then we'll see if you were right. Pick a prime spot, and have backups to go to if the first one fails. We have 5 days to get it right. I'll give a report each night here, and you can plan the next days hunt. It's like you're playing a hunting game, but this is real. Sound interesting? Can you all get together, and lead me to an elk? How should I hunt? You tell me. I specialize in still hunting, but I can hunt every way there is. I would normally scout the hell out of any area I plan to hunt. I can't do that this time. I'm you, and you're a non resident. You can't scout until you get here. So, I won't either. Would you come a couple of days early to scout? I can do that.

Now, some of you may worry you're not in good enough shape to elk hunt. I'll be working out all year, but keep in mind by the next hunt i'm be close to 72 years old. Certainly you younger guys can get in better shape than me. For those who are older, but not as old as me. You can can at a minimum equal my fitness. Lets keep in mind the age and fitness when hunting areas are considered. Also, keep in mind that this is a solo hunt, and the meat has to be taken out. This will be as important as where the elk are. Maybe more important.

Some will say I don't hunt for cows. That's fine. I can simulate a bull hunt, and if I get a bull in my sights. We'll consider it a kill, but will only pull the trigger on a cow. I also mentioned camping earlier. We can simulate that too. You can say something like this............i'll be camping in this spot, and i'd be leaving camp at xxxam for this area. Then i'll do it.

If you guys are interested in doing this. I suggest it be done away from the public. This forum can be read by non members, and you may be surprised at those numbers. If we post all the info to the general public. Where you tell me to go will be swamped with hunters. Maybe a sub forum that can only be read by forum members with at least 25 posts will be a good idea.

Anyway, tell me what you think. I think it will be fun, and helpful to new elk hunters. I'll even break down, and take pictures of the hunt.

[cohunter14]

Pete, glad to see you back

I think this is a great idea, but I don't know how you would keep it from the public. As I read this, one of the first things in my head was 'there will be 20 people in the same spot opening day.' I don't know how you get around that...?

[Still Hunter]

That's why we need to keep the general public from this thread. It should just be for forum members. John should be able to put this thread on a members only sub forum.

[cohunter14]

If it's possible, that would be great! Still a chance that a few members might decide to 'join' you, but I think it is a great idea.

[Still Hunter]

I've been thinking about the season since writing it down. It seems the majority of members here are bow hunters. It might be better to simulate that season, so more members can relate to it. I'll have to use open sights in muzzy season. With my crappy eyesight that limits my range to 50 yds max. Just about bow range. Bow season is Aug 30-Sept 28. Muzzy is Sept 13-21. So, i'll be hunting in the middle of bow season with a weapon with no more range than a bow. Close enough.

[Willie makit]

Aw crap, your making me want to go and be your videographer, plus something else I'll intensely follow! Like I'm not on here enough

Sounds like an awesome idea, many threads building up to the real deal. Maybe do some votes to decide on some things?

I know you got a little outed a few days ago but I (hope) I sense some excitement in this idea and will (perhaps annoyingly ) be right in there with you on this endeavor and am glad to see you back. You are a valuable asset to this forum and I enjoy your posts.

[Still Hunter]

If this takes off. I am excited about it. I'll feel like the forum is with me during the hunt. Quite different from being alone physically, and with my thoughts.

[cohunter14]

Well, I can start with a map of Unit 55 and the public lands available to hunt. This is from the DOW website. You can also go on here and view this area with a topo and aerial view, zooming in and out. You can also get the elk migration patterns as well as the summer and winter concentration areas for the unit. Go here to do more: http://wildlife.state.co.us/Hunting/Pages/GMUnitMaps.aspx

Here is the map of the unit. All of the dark green area is national forest, the yellow is BLM, and the purple is State Wildlife Areas. Anything not shaded is private land.

55.jpg (120 KiB) Viewed 13120 times

Here is the summer concentration maps. The pink is the summer range and the hash marks are the concentration areas. The concentration areas have densities of at least 200% more elk than the surrounding range areas. The red lines are migration routes and the red circled ares with little red dots are migration corridors.

55-2.jpg (176.52 KiB) Viewed 13120 times

This will at least give you all some information to think about until we find out if we can get this in a private forum.

[Still Hunter]

Yes, please don't start to suggest any areas until we see if we can get this private.

I live and hunt normally in 481. So, i'll be coming from that direction over Cottonwood Pass on 306. For muzzy season the weather should be no problem on the pass. Rain in the afternoon, maybe light snow that won't stay on the ground for long in unit 55.

[Indian Summer]

" it also has a lot of hunters. For muzzy season which also mean during bow season, and deer season. It has 1085 hunters. It's a big unit, but that's a lot of hunters. You can double that number for later rifle seasons."

I'm out! Even if I did manage to get away from people the elk in the area will have a bachelor's degree in human behavior. They will be the opposite of what I call user friendly elk. So I'd PM Cnelk and beg for a better spot or click on his link with info for trespass fees on private land.

I knew you couldn't resist us Pete. Seriously, It's not just the fact that this is THE place to learn and talk about elk hunting..... it's also the fact that (in my humble opinion) there's not a better bunch of people anywhere on the internet regardless of the topic of discussion.

After your posts on my Headin' West thread I have to say I'm shocked to see you giving up info on specific locations.

If ya' can't beat em join em?

[cnelk]

Based on 2012 stats:
GMU 55 Muzzleloader season had an overall success rate of 18%
22 bulls - 23 cows - 6 calves

[ElkNut1]

Sounds a bit over the top & complicated, not anything I'd be interested in. Since it's an OTC area with tons of hunters already there I don't see hardly anyone that follows the thread to toss in their existing area in place of 55. We will not make this exclusive to members only, this Site is for everyone. If this means things need to be more thought out then OK, but as for now there will be no changes to exclude non members. Thanks & go for it, it should be interesting! (grin)

ElkNut1

[ctdad]

I don't actually understand what it is you are trying to do? Is this a virtual exercise for learning purposes? Are you going on this hunt? Are you taking someone along? I don't know if I think this is a good idea bc I don't get it?

[Madison COunty]

I'm confused What is this supposed to be about? Is it like a video game?

[Still Hunter]

I now see why there's so many misunderstandings on forums. I thought I explained everything pretty good as to what I was doing here.

Joe...A 1000 hunters is minor compared to the popular units. This is a big unit. This is your new business. Show us it works by being part of this.

Paul....It's an OTC unit in 2nd and 3rd rifle seasons. Not during my hunt. I don't hunt OTC seasons. This exercise is to help those NR hunters who have doubts about coming to Colorado for an elk hunt. With the help of this forum we can show it can be done. So many threads about where are the elk on such and such map. Everybody gives their opinion, but nobody knows if they're right. This experiment will show if you can tell where the elk are by looking at a map. I'm surprised you can't see what i'm trying to do here. This isn't about someone giving up a honey hole. This is about finding them. You want to help those who are new to elk hunting? Show them all the advice given here works. I'm taking the place of the non resident. I'll have no input in this. You all figure out where I should hunt, and i'll go do it. It won't work if the whole world see's where you tell me to go. That's the point of closing it off to just members, an d hoping they won't flood the areas. I've never seen anybody ask about unit 55. So, it's not like were invading someones hunting area. This is a tough area to hunt with lots of hunters, and lots of ATV roads. It's also an easy unit to get tags. It's a unit that someone new would go to. If you can guide someone new to elk in this unit. Then doing an easier unit will be much more effective.

Listen, i'm trying to help out here. It would be easy for me to just hunt my unit. I'd get an elk, and the hunt would be 50 times easier. I'm willing to put the effort, and extra money to do this if it will help others. If you all think it has no value? Then lets just forget it.

[cnelk]

Im on board with this.
Interesting idea Pete. But with all of the lurkers out there, I think you would have company.
I did some quick research of 55 and found a few likely places you could get into elk
But I wouldnt post them here if someone was interested in hunting them.

I have been thinking about something similar for non-residents.

Lets say a NR wants to come out to Colorado hunting, but cant 'pre-scout' an area.
How much would it be worth to go scout an area for a NR?
Go find a couple possible campsites, check out some ridges and draws, take some pics and get some GPS waypoints?

Pete, you're retired, in good shape, and know what to look for when it comes to elk sign.
Lets you and me split this state up and go scout for some Non residents!

[Indian Summer]

Go find a couple possible campsites, check out some ridges and draws, take some pics and get some GPS waypoints?

Lets you and me split this state up and go scout for some Non residents!

Pretty sure you know there's ALOT more to it than that. I guess that depends on the level of detail you want to pass on. We've all talked about how long, as in how many years it can take to figure and area out. Also... it's important to be there during hunting season to know what the elk are doing at that point in time. It's even more important to be there during hunting season to know what hunters are doing at that point in time. The hunting areas I pass on to my clients are ones that are tried and tested. Hunted and scouted in season and bulls killed there.

But there's no doubt you could give people a helping hand by gathering general info on where there's a flat spot to camp and if that little blue line on the map actually has water in that location.

Pete you know what to look for. I think it would be just as helpful to tell new hunters where on the map you would choose to hunt and then if you were to go hunt there, report back with actual info on what you found and how it went. Also maybe some changes you made in your plans once you got there and saw the place first hand.... and then after you had hunted it a bit.

[JohnFitzgerald]

Ah, your second explanation makes a lot more sense. Thanks Still Hunter, this is very kind of you. It does sound interesting.

Like Paul stated, we unfortunately can't concede our number one policy of completely public. But, maybe a lot of hunters is a good thing. I mean, your more likely to run into a lot of hunters as a newbie.

Still Hunter, you should change your name to elknutforums avatar.

[Still Hunter]

Go find a couple possible campsites, check out some ridges and draws, take some pics and get some GPS waypoints?

Lets you and me split this state up and go scout for some Non residents!

Pretty sure you know there's ALOT more to it than that. I guess that depends on the level of detail you want to pass on. We've all talked about how long, as in how many years it can take to figure and area out. Also... it's important to be there during hunting season to know what the elk are doing at that point in time. It's even more important to be there during hunting season to know what hunters are doing at that point in time. The hunting areas I pass on to my clients are ones that are tried and tested. Hunted and scouted in season and bulls killed there.

But there's no doubt you could give people a helping hand by gathering general info on where there's a flat spot to camp and if that little blue line on the map actually has water in that location.

Pete you know what to look for. I think it would be just as helpful to tell new hunters where on the map you would choose to hunt and then if you were to go hunt there, report back with actual info on what you found and how it went. Also maybe some changes you made in your plans once you got there and saw the place first hand.... and then after you had hunted it a bit.

This a follow up on the advice given on this forum. I'm not the type to look at a map, and say where the elk are. That's why you don't see me getting involved in those threads. I have a different way to find elk, and it requires a ton of time in the mountains. I never recommend to anybody to do it my way. In this experiment I have no input at all before the hunt. I'm the guinea pig. Give me the #1 spot to go to first. I'll report back at night to explain what I saw as far as elk and hunters etc. If it looks good i'll go again the next day. If not, i'll go to #2 spot. The experiment ends when the season it over, or I get an elk. It's sort of a blow by blow hunt for the new guy, so he knows what to expect. Sort of....If this old fart can do it. So can I. It might give a boost to someone who's not quite sure if he should try it.

This not the ideal unit. So, if we can make this work. It will show better units will be even easier for them.

[Still Hunter]

Still Hunter, you should change your name to elknutforums avatar.

I tried to figure out what you meant by this. I failed.


As for keeping it public. I don't see how it will work right if too many hunters know where i'm going. It would be an un-natural condition. I want the same number of hunters there as if we didn't do this.

[Swede]

The more I read this thread the more confusing it gets. It is supposed to prove something, but what? By sending a hunter out to some spot with specific GPS coordinates, does it prove anything if an elk is or isn't killed there? Most likely when you arrive at the location, you will need to take a number to get a turn. If an elk showed up, you will want to dive for cover. If someone has a hot spot they want to share with a newbie, go for it. Send a PM. If someone has a tip for general consumption then please post it.

Lets you and me split this state up and go scout for some Non residents!

Brad don't let I.S. pick on you. I know this proposition was supposed to be funny. I am sure that before Still Hunter hit the Aspens, you could post up 100 places a newbie could go hunting. I am also sure I get out a few too, but they would go out in a PM.

[JohnFitzgerald]

Still Hunter, let me explain the way I understand.

Still Hunter has a tag for a specific unit or plans to hunt that unit. We as forum users get to choose where he hunts. He is giving up his hunt to show everyone the trials and tribulations of the hunt. He will check in with use regularly during the hunt.

Is this correct Still Hunter?

The avatar comment was just dry humor about controlling you during your hunt.

jf

[Still Hunter]

The more I read this thread the more confusing it gets. It is supposed to prove something, but what? By sending a hunter out to some spot with specific GPS coordinates, does it prove anything if an elk is or isn't killed there? Most likely when you arrive at the location, you will need to take a number to get a turn. If an elk showed up, you will want to dive for cover. If someone has a hot spot they want to share with a newbie, go for it. Send a PM. If someone has a tip for general consumption then please post it.

Lets you and me split this state up and go scout for some Non residents!

Brad don't let I.S. pick on you. I know this proposition was supposed to be funny. I am sure that before Still Hunter hit the Aspens, you could post up 100 places a newbie could go hunting. I am also sure I get out a few too, but they would go out in a PM.

I don't want you to be confused, so here's an example of the type of thread i'm talking about. Someone shows a map, and asks for places that hold elk. Members give advice, and it ends right there. I want to follow it up, and see if the advice has merit.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3630

[Still Hunter]

Still Hunter, let me explain the way I understand.

Still Hunter has a tag for a specific unit or plans to hunt that unit. We as forum users get to choose where he hunts. He is giving up his hunt to show everyone the trials and tribulations of the hunt. He will check in with use regularly during the hunt.

Is this correct Still Hunter?

jf

Yes, that's it. A new hunter can put himself in my place. What I do he can duplicate. I'll be like him. The area will be brand new to me. I'll explain everything I do and see.

[Swede]

Still Hunter I have followed all of those treads and posted on most. I just don't think your exercise will prove anything, regardless of how the hunt turns out. I have no objection to you getting some hunters or would be hunters to send you out. Seriously, have fun. We have advised hunters through personal contacts, PMs, and many phone conversations, where hunters would have a good chance at an elk. It was based on a lot of time on the ground. To my knowledge ost did not kill an elk, at least right away. Was that just bad advise in units with a 10%-15% hunter success? If you are going to teach something, have a point to teach.

[Still Hunter]

Just because you don't see the point. Doesn't mean there isn't one. Others seem to see it.

[Willie makit]

Would posting it public really be that bad y'all recon? thinking about when I was lurking, I would be watching this unfold intently and would learn from the experiment, but there is no way, NO FREAKIN WAY, you would catch me showing up at THE X to try to elk hunt on any spot publicly marked like this.

I'd figure it would be like the march of the well armed pumpkins, so thats the one place i would not be found. add to that it's supposed to be us noobs directing Still (I think that's the intent) I'd take the advice lightly. However if he kicks butt where we send him, then reports back daily, it would be the night of the pumpkins the next AM.

Would be like getting to do 2 hunts in a year! Heck maybe Huntography can go with you a day or two !

[ST52V]

This sound very interesting and I like the idea. I think it could work if you kept the unit number of the net. It could be discussed and picked through pm's. If people want to play they could contact still through a pm. He then could give that person the unit number or not. He could use rank as a factor to include them in on the unit or not. Newbies could just watch from the side lines and watch the process and learn. This could give them confidence that it could be done, what steps to take, things to look for ect..

[timberland]

I agree to keep the unit off the net. Maybe take a section of a large unit. I don't hunt 55 but am adjacent to it. Bumped into a new guy where I hunt that got bumped from 55. As someone stated in a previous thread, elk hunters are often nomadic in nature, switching areas. But it sucks getting bumped.

[Still Hunter]

Ok, this hasn't gone as expected. I never expected any negative opinions on this. I thought it could be a good learning tool for new guys. If nothing else it would show how I hunt an area without ever being there before. Just like a lot of you non residents have to do.

I also never thought that keeping this for members only wouldn't be a problem. This unit is already crowded enough. To let everybody see where i'm going in the unit is ridiculous. Keep in mind I never see hunters where I go normally. I don't mind putting up with some hunters for this challenge, but i'm not willing to put up with hoards of hunters. Non of us would get an elk, and I couldn't teach anybody about finding and shooting an elk. The whole thing would just be a waste of time, and the area wouldn't be ruined for everybody.

The only option I can see is to do it in private, and then report the results after the hunt is over. That's a shame, because watching the whole process would be more educational.

Brad..........If you like to do the map work. I'll do the hunt. Then we can report after the hunt about why we did what we did. We can use PM's or email.

[jmez]

Probably best if it is kept private. I really see no point here other than you taking a thinly veiled shot at IndianSummer and cnelk just coming right out and saying it.

[Still Hunter]

Saying what? Say it if you have something to say, because I don't know what you mean? I'm friends with both those guys. What did you read that I didn't say?

[jmez]

I said exactly what I wanted to and the comment needs no further explanation.

[Still Hunter]

You said nothing, and obviously have no clue what this thread is about.

Sure is hard to try and help with some of you guys. Do you think i'm doing this for myself?

[cnelk]

Pete
Im not sure it would do much good if you and I played this out.
That would be like me telling WW how to hunt a new area, when he already knows how to hunt a new area.

I believe your intentions are in the right place and many newbie Non Residents should be thanking you for your offer.

You should consider my idea of scouting for someone. There are many guys who wonder what it is like a few miles over from where they currently hunt, but dont want to - or cant - take the time to look at it.

Like mentioned, we hunters are wandering souls.
So why not go wander for someone?

[cohunter14]

Pete, I still think this is a good idea. However, what about posting a larger map and aerial of an area and letting people point you in the right direction. If you hide certain areas of reference, it will be very difficult for people to figure out where you are (see what Brad has done in his map reading threads). I know you mentioned the unit here, but if you started a new thread in a few weeks with this, I think people wouldn't figure out where you are. It might take two, three, or even four maps and aerials to show the different areas, but I think it could work. Get suggestions from the newbies here, go where they think you should, but then also provide your own input from the hunt and what might help make you successful. Your input to the situation would be very helpful for them. I still think this is a great idea for the newbies out there and I think it is generous of you. Could be a lot of fun to watch it play out!

[ST52V]

I agree!! Find a way and make it work. Maybe go through posts and find 5 newbies that want to hunt Colorado and work through this with you. They would know the unit along with you. It would be like a class with you taking the exam. They could post up maps and Ariel views with their thoughts and ask for other peoples thoughts. Just like whats been done with key info blacked out. Before the hunt plan a-g is laid out along with gear list ideas and logistical stuff. Those 5 people could use the info for future hunt the following year or apply what they learned in another area. All results are posted and discussed. Maybe you could find a few guys that want to hunt next fall and a few the following year. You would provide what you want to the public eye and help a few newbies first handed.

[Sledgehammer]

Ok no problem I will just continue reading

[Still Hunter]

This isn't going to happen for me. As it turned out, it's not what I wanted to do. I won't be hunting 55.


Feel free to ask the forum the same question, but make sure the answers you get are in private. Otherwise you'll have way too much company on the hunt.

[Mikeha33]

SH, what made you change your mind? Too much participation? Not comfortable giving out spots? I'm curious, because it seems like you put in a lot of conscious thoughts towards this idea. Not something I was interested in, but something I was interested in following as it played out.

[Still Hunter]

I wanted it open to the forum, but only the forum. I wanted everybody to follow along for the whole process.

Paul wants to keep it open to the whole world, and it won't work that way. I probably should have at least waited for the draw to be over, but I was excited to get started now. I never dreamed this wouldn't be accepted by everybody.

I have no interest in doing it under these conditions. Sorry I brought it up. I came back to the forum to do this. Now i'm wondering why I here again. I'm already annoyed by a couple of members here.

If I disappear. You'll understand why. I try to lead a peaceful life. I refuse to be annoyed by someone who doesn't even know me.

Sorry for the small rant. I guess this has been on my mind, and it just came out.

[BMF11]

Unfortunate Pete, that you feel the need to leave again because there are different points of view on a subject. You obviously have a lot of knowledge to share in respect to elk hunting which this forum is all about!! I personally was glad to see you return. Hope you stick around and maybe don't take things as a personal attack (which is what most other forums are about). Different views are also expressed here, just not in a condescending way like other forums. It seems that this forum is almost a live brainstorming session with some of the most knowledgeable people involved! Although nearly everyone here is more knowledgeable about elk than me, I won't take only one persons ideas and tactics to the field with me. Great offer by you on the hunt. Would love to see a tips/tactics post of still hunting for elk by you. I was able to kill my first elk in my first season last September by still hunting since the bugles were scarce, although I know much of it was the ElkGods smiling down on me!

[Still Hunter]

Nice job on that bull. Nice looking terrain too.

It's not a difference in opinion that bothers me. Actually, I enjoy that. It's the cheap shots that I find annoying. Like post #31.

[JohnFitzgerald]

Just a reminder again guys, we have forum administrators and moderators to help. Please keep issues and problems you may off the threads and away from the public eye. We completely understand that everyone has their own opinion and not everyone can agree. A PM to one of us is the best way to handle problems as they occur. Let's keep the information flowing......elk season is just around the corner.

[Swede]

John: I agree. I don't want anyone to think I am finding any fault here. That is not my point. I would rather not fix blame, but to focus our thoughts in the right direction.
This is an elk hunting forum. We discuss and even debate elk hunting. I am still trying to teach John how to properly hunt elk, but he is not a quick study at times. lol What is off limits is to make a personal attack on him because he does not do things the way I believe he should. There is a fine line here as we are very close to our preferences.
Hopefully it is very rare, but we can all be advised or even reprimanded when we cross the line. I expect no different treatment than I would apply to anyone else, and I too can get carried away at times. There are a couple of things to keep in mind. I. Just because we have the right to free speech, does not mean any space will be available here for us to exercise it. 2. This is not one of those other forums. We are all friends here.

[>>>---WW---->]

Great post and good points Swede. Thanks!

Don't worry, John can't help it! But keep teaching him and eventually your tree stand hunting will rub off on him. By the way, did I ever tell you the story about my friend that invented the inflatable tree stand?

[JohnFitzgerald]

Now that's not nice! Is it older geezer pick on young stud day or something? Where's my backup....RJ you out there!