Which caliber?

[FemoralArchery]

I've decided that I would like to get a new rifle that is just for elk hunting. It may very well get used for other things, but the primary focus will be elk. I already have 2 .270s, a .243 and a .22-250 so I really want something bigger. Do I need anything bigger? No, my .270s are more than enough to kill an elk, and have already done so. I'm just looking for something different, something bigger to round out the armory.

Things to consider in making my choice:
Availability of factory ammo
Variety of bullets and bullet weights in factory ammo
Down range ballistics (my main goal isn't long range hunting, but I want something that I could work into later without purchasing another gun, especially for predators like coyotes and wolves)
Cost of factory ammo(plan on doing a lot of shooting)
Availibilty of reloading equipment. I know "availabilty" is a relative term here, but I don't reload yet. In the next couple years I would like to start reloading and hopefully this stuff becomes easier to find in that time.

Also, feel free to throw out a rifle model, if you care to. I'm really looking at either a Weatherby Vangaurd Series 2 or Remington 700 in one version or another.

I own a Tikka T3, Browning ABolt, Savage Modell 11 and a custom built .270. I absolutely love all of these guns and wouldn't hesitate to purchase any of them again, but variety is the spice of life. I would like to buy something other than what I already have, if I like it.

[WapitiTalk1]

"I'm just looking for something different, something bigger to round out the armory." I know tee tee about rifle ballistics and such but how about a .338 and call it a day? Lots of flat shooting, smack down power for elk, bear, moose, bigfoots, etc. I know my buddies in MT who had that caliber loved them.

[SilverDollars]

Howdy. Well, IMHO, go with a 300 Win mag. This seems to meet all 3 of your requirements. Perhaps in a Ruger M77 Hawkeye to round out your collection. Mine is very accurate.

[cnelk]

With what you described your intended use(s) I would choose the 7mm Mag

The lightest bullet weight available is 100gr
The heaviest is 180gr

You can shoot whatever, whenever you want

[Still Hunter]

I'm going to give the old reliable 30-06 a vote. It qualifies for everything you asked for.

[cnelk]

Pete
I thought about the '06, but he mentioned he has two .270s and I dont think he would see much 'bigger' difference between them and the '06.
Since he mentioned coyotes and wolves, the 7mm would fit that bill pretty good being a flat shooting, hard hitting bullet.

If I read 'between the lines' correctly, I believe Femoral Archery wants to expand his gun collection, and keeping practical overall use within reach.
Would the 30-06 do that?
Yes. But I would choose the 7mm Mag and start reloading very soon

[Still Hunter]

True, but he had three requests on ammo, and it's hard to beat an 06 for ammo availability, choice of bullet weight, and cost.

[Elkduds]

You have all the varmint guns you will ever need. Start reloading those 270s, they can launch light bullets very, very fast. Next step up is to 30 cal '06, but that is the same case size and capacity as 270, so you pretty much have that already. Next are 2 magnums, the 7 mm Rem mag and the 270 mag, .284 vs .277 cal. If you simply must have a magnum, consider this cheap, simple solution. Have the longest of your 270 barrels rechambered to 270 Weatherby mag, by a good gunsmith. It will shoot the same .270 bullets, only 200 fps faster, saving you on reloading. It will need different dies, cases, primers, maybe different powder. It is at least the ballistic equivalent of the 7 mm mags. Heaviest .270 bullet I am aware of is 160 gr, all you need except for big bears/dangerous game.

Beyond that, you're up into the magnums of 30 cal and beyond. Expensive to shoot, loud, much less useful for varmints. Read up on 270 Weatherby magnum, you already have one---almost, if you have a 24 in. barrel in 270

[FemoralArchery]

Thanks guys for all the good info so far.

Phantom16: A .338 was the first gun to cross my mind. The cost of ammo is comparitively high. It also really limits the rifle models that I could choose from. Most are offered in .270, .308, .300 Win Mag, and .30-06. (I'm really looking for a $600 rifle give or take a C note.)

SilverDollars: .300 Win Mag was the second gun to cross my mind. And right now its at the top of the short list. Nobody in my crew shoots one and that appeals to me. Its not terribly expensive to buy ammo for.

cnelk: 7mm Mag is on the short list. My good partners shoot 7mm Mags and they've killed a pile of elk with them. Really the only downside for me is that my partners shoot them, its really a non issue. If I go into the gun store and they have a 7mm and not a .300 WM, guess what, I'll still be leaving the store happy. Ammo isn't bad for the 7mm either.

StillHunter: The .30-06 never really crossed my mind. Its a very, VERY popular round. And like Elkduds and cnelk said, its fairly similar to the .270.

Elkduds: That's an interesting proposition there. I will probably decline to do that though. Both of my .270s were gifts from my dad. My ABolt was my first big game rifle at age 11 and the custom (Interarms action with a medium heavy barrel and custom bedded Bell and Carlson stock) was a gift for graduating high school. I don't think I could bring myself to do that. One day, I hope to retire those rifles and give them to my kids, just the way my dad gave them to me.

As for reloading, it will be a while before I get into that. I can't convince my wife to let me buy a new rifle, scope, wall tent, binos and a reloading setup this year. Since she makes most of the money right now, I have to mind my Ps and Qs.

Someday, I hope to fill in all the gaps with every caliber I can get ahold of. I'm seriously not opposed to having 15 or 20 rifles in the safe of all different calibers. I have 3 kids that will all be hunting, so I need a lot of guns. at least that's what I tell my wife

[Elkduds]

My own elk rifles are an Interarms Mark X in 7 Rem mag and a Stevens plastic stock 270. The 7 mag rules for versatility and longer shots, it is my magnum caliber of choice. Ammo is readily available, 160 gr. bonded or partition bullets are plenty for elk. My 270 weighs 3 lb less and does the job on elk inside 300 yd, I prefer carrying it all day. Of course you would not want to alter barrels on family heirloom guns. I don't think the new short magnums offer much of value. Their ammo is harder to find and to reload, their ballistics duplicate the full-length magnums. Their action is slightly shorter and therefore lighter. After 30-06, 7 Rem mag is next most popular elk caliber in a survey I read in Field/Stream or somesuch magazine. Have fun choosing.

[Indian Summer]

If you really want a heavy hitter then the .338 or even that .300 Win Mag are probably top considerations. I'd throw the .300 Rem Ultra Mag or maybe the 7mm Ultra mag in there but the ammo isn't always easy to find and if you don't reload you'd need to refinance your house if you plan to shoot it much. $$$$!

If you aren't dead set on heavier .30 caliber options that 7mm Rem mag would hands down be my choice. it is just known to be an inherently accurate caliber in my opinion. Easy and economical to shoot. I LOVE mine.

As far as models.... I talked about the Remington model 700 in Madison's Elk Rifle thread. One thing I'll add to what I said there: I know some gun makers who are the best in this entire country. Holders of 1 mile group records! They build their guns from the ground up but they always start with the same action: Rem Model 700. No doubt I'm pretty narrow minded when it comes to that.... I'd never own anything else!

[Still Hunter]

You're missing the advantage of the 30-06. It's much more versatile than the .270. The .270 shoots pretty much 130gr and 150gr bullets. The 06 can shoot bullet weights from 110gr to 220gr. There really is no game you can't hunt in the US. Yes, you can do it with a .270 too, but if I had a close shot at a big bear or moose. The 220gr 06 makes me more comfortable.

Magnums are for TV shows. Over priced, and not needed.

[baddaddy]

The 7mm mag, 300 Winny, or the 338 win mag would be good. All can be had in a 700 or the Vanguard/Howa line.

[Indian Summer]

Magnums are for TV shows. Over priced, and not needed.

Man.... no offense but I'd have to whole heartedly disagree with that. That's like a trad gear archer saying compound bows are for Hollywood. lol As the saying goes "to each his own" but there are great reason to kick a 30 cal bullet in the butt with more powder. As long as the operator is capable of utilizing the potential AND has done his or her homework. I guarantee there are times when I could be standing next to a guy with a non-mag caliber and kill elk dead that he ethically wouldn't think of flinging lead at. You aren't going to kill a bull at 800 or 1000 yards with any load out of an .06 no matter what "recipe" you load it up with. Elk country is BIG man and not all of it is blanketed in timber. And though the mighty Ultra Mags may be a bit much for some I don't consider the 7mm Rem Mag to be overkill by any means. What a great versatile caliber!

To credit a very intelligent and successful hunter: Jack O'Connor would and did take that .270 over the .06 any day of the week from Alaska to Africa right?

[Still Hunter]

Jack also used a 30-06.

I'm sorry, but 1000yd shots never have to be made. Elk were killed long before magnums showed up. Certainly, you can get closer than 1000yds?

OP said he didn't want a gun for long range hunting.

[Still Hunter]

Since you brought up Jack. I think he's misunderstood by modern hunters. Let me quote something about him. Not arguing. Just trying to keep the facts straight.



"The late Jack O'Connor, the Dean of American Gun Writers, seems to be have become stereotyped as the historical proponent of small bore, high velocity rifle cartridges. There is no question that O'Connor wrote extensively about such cartridges; in fact, he wrote about virtually all of the popular rifle cartridges of his day.

However, what many commentators today seem to have forgotten is that Jack O'Connor killed many large and dangerous game animals, including all of the African Big 5, as well as the heavy and dangerous game of India and North America. He used and wrote very highly of the .375 H&H, .416 Rigby and .450 Watts (equivalent of the .458 Lott), among others, for such use. O'Connor was, in fact, almost single-handedly responsible for the popularity of the .416 Rigby and subsequent .416 caliber cartridges in North America.

What differentiated Jack O'Connor from Elmer Keith (aside from the fact that Jack was a literate guy and a fine writer) was that he had enough sense to employ such cannons when required, and used more sensible cartridges such as the .257 Roberts, .270 Winchester, 7x57 and .30-06 for thin-skinned non-dangerous game.

Writers today usually summarize Jack O'Connor as the small bore, high velocity proponent so that they can contrast his accomplishments with Elmer Keith (the big bullet for everything guy). But in reality it just ain't so.

I've read just about everything Jack O'Connor ever wrote and talked to the man. The reality is that he advocated bullet placement first and then choosing a rifle/cartridge that allowed the hunter to place his bullet precisely. Most of the time, for most shooters and most game, that is one of the smaller (.24 to .30) calibers, due to less recoil and muzzle blast. However, for big and dangerous game, he used and recommended rifles and cartridges designed for the purpose.

O'Connor was never a high velocity "true believer" like Roy Weatherby, who went to Africa and knocked off a Cape buffalo with a .257 Wby. Magnum to prove that it could be done. Nor was he particularly a fan of "Magnum" cartridges, although he owned and used some magnum rifles. Jack always recommended appropriate calibers for the job at hand.

He preferred reasonably flat-shooting cartridges, because he hunted a great deal in open country and found that they made accurate bullet placement easier. He did not advocate velocity as the key to killing power. He advocated bullet placement as the key to killing power."

[Indian Summer]

O'Connor was never a high velocity "true believer" like Roy Weatherby, who went to Africa and knocked off a Cape buffalo with a .257 Wby. Magnum to prove that it could be done. Nor was he particularly a fan of "Magnum" cartridges, although he owned and used some magnum rifles. Jack always recommended appropriate calibers for the job at hand.

He preferred reasonably flat-shooting cartridges, because he hunted a great deal in open country and found that they made accurate bullet placement easier. He did not advocate velocity as the key to killing power. He advocated bullet placement as the key to killing power."

Is velocity not what gives us a flat shooting bullets? And a heavier bullet retains energy longer which means it will shoot flatter further. So.... a heavy projectile at a high velocity will have a longer effective range. In other words: better placement at longer distances. Just simple facts really. To say those kinds of weapons are for tv, not needed, and a waste of money isn't a fact. It's an opinion. My opinion is that guns with lesser ballistics than what I now own are not needed..... by me anyway.

Maybe 1000 is an extreme example. Maybe it isn't. Depends on ones abilities and again.... the homework done prior to the opportunity. Like I said.... I know guys who shoot targets at a mile. 1000 yards is a chip shot for them. I have a friend who has the 1000 yard shot down so well that he'd rather shoot at 1000 than say 850. Likewise there are guys who think nothing of a 70 yard bowshot while I limit myself to 45.

There is a proper tool for every job in this world. I own a regular screw driver and a Phillips. But I also have a Dewalt cordless with a 20 volt lithium ion battery. A magnum caliber is just that.... a tool with a purpose for anyone interested in using them. I personally hunt places where it is a very useful tool. Can I always get closer? No. I'm a bowhunter. I love getting up close and personal. I love just interacting with wild animals of all kinds like that during archery season. Would I want a bow that could kill elk at 100 yards? Not really.

I know a place where numbers of big bulls, some huge, survive in the wide open because you just cannot get close enough for a shot with any weapon or caliber. Antelope live by the same method. But with a map, knowledge of the lay of the land, and some patience you might be lucky enough to get to 600-800 yards. The trained and equipped call that an opportunity. Others may not. Especially with inferior ballistics and/or skill. Is everyone interesting in becoming skilled at such things? Nope. Nothing interests everyone. A 30-.06 doesn't interest me at all actually. I completely respect it's place in the hunting world that's for sure. But I have guns that can do all that and more. Some don't care to dump the cash for such a gun. I enjoy it. I don't collect art, drink fine wine, or golf. The keywords again are to each his own so maybe everyone doesn't own a cordless screwdriver either.

[Still Hunter]

Good to see you think it was just my opinion. Just like what you just said is just your opinion.

There's two schools of thought here. Lets call it two extreme schools of thought. We are at opposite ends of killing elk, and i'm not referring to your bow hunting, but rifle hunting.

There are many supporters of my group who feel long range killing is more shooting than hunting. I've had these discussions over and over on other forums, so I don't want to do it here too. It never ends up well. I will tell you about a friend of mine though. He's a retired military sniper. I've known him for 20 years. He asked me one day to teach him how to still hunt. I did it gladly, because it's my passion. I never asked him why he wanted to do it. He became very good at it, and seemed to enjoy it. One day when curiosity got the best of me I asked him why he didn't do long range hunting. He gave me a short answer and nothing else was said about it again. He said............It's too easy.

[Swede]

A couple of years ago, I gave my 338W model 70 Win. away to my son. It had sat in the gun cabinet for years collecting dust. Now my largest, most powerful rifle is a 308W. I have long ago lost all interest in big bang, heavy recoil guns. If the 308W can't git er done, I will hunt something or somewhere else. The 308W is ample for elk at shorter ranges, 200 yards or less. I like a 30-06 too, but have none. If you believe you need a big magnum rifle, enjoy your hunt, and go for it. I have nothing against burning a lot of H4831 powder, or similar, but have no interest in a rifle that does.

[Huntrgathr]

Femoral - I'm a little confused about what you're looking for. you want something bigger than a .270 for hunting coyotes and wolves with good down range ballistics ? You already own some of the best calibers for that. A .270 meets all the requirements for cheap/available ammo and reloading equipment. It'll kill elk just fine, as you've already said. Do you just want to make bigger holes in stuff ? If you haven't gotten into reloading yet, start there. You might realize that reloading for larger calibers and Loooong shooting is more expensive than its worth. I own a Springfield 30-06, Tikka 22-250 (among others). I have never found myself wanting a bigger hunting rifle. But maybe you're more of a " gun collector". Once I started reloading, all my guns got a lot better...

[Still Hunter]

He said he wanted it primarily for elk.

[Huntrgathr]

He said he wanted it primarily for elk.

Oh. Then just get a 30-06. No brainer !

[FemoralArchery]

I live in the Owyhee desert of southern Idaho. Coyotes are typically very smart here because they are easy to spot. This equates to alot of people shooting at them. They have learned that they can stand out at 6-7-800 yards and are typically very safe. I find this irritating.

I want a gun that I can reload for and shoot out that far, eventually. Just as IndianSummer says, AFTER I've done my homework.

At this point in time, I don't really have the desire to shoot deer, elk, bears or antelope at long range (beyond say, 400 yards). I still like to get as close as possible regardless of the weapon I'm hunting with.

But...

Someday I might decide that shooting big game from long range is fun. Or I may find a honey hole(or honey flat spot) as IndianSummer described where opportunity may rely on the distance I can shoot. So I want something that is capable of 800 yard big game kills, but that really isn't my sole purpose right now.

And...

I like guns, but I've never really gotten into reloading or long range shooting or ballistic comparisons. My dad gave me a .270 and I killed the heck out of stuff with it. Now I want to try something else. And yes Huntrgathr, it may be just the collector in me wanting something new. Maybe I'll get a new one, and it will be my favorite... or maybe I'll kill some stuff with it and put it away and get another gun to be my favorite.

Someday I hope to own something in every caliber mentioned here. Plus this is making for good conversation.

[Indian Summer]

If I wanted to shoot coyotes or deer at really long distances I might take a good look at that 22-250 huntrgathr mentioned. That's a great tool for the toolbox! So is the 25-.06

[Huntrgathr]

If I wanted to shoot coyotes or deer at really long distances I might take a good look at that 22-250 huntrgathr mentioned. That's a great tool for the toolbox! So is the 25-.06

I looked hard at the 25-06 when shopping for a gun to hunt both coyotes and wolves, which is what I use the 22-250 for now. I was worried it would be to light for wolves so I'm working up a load with 60gr Nosler Partitions that I think will be the right pill for wolf and maybe deer.

As far as an " easy reloader" or one you can find tons of factory ammo, 30-06, or maybe better, .308 are the easiest to find ammo and supplies for. At the height of the current shortage I still managed to get a keg, 150 brass and plenty of Barnes bullets to load as much as I want...

[FemoralArchery]

I have a 22-250 and a .243 that I will use for specifically when I start reloading.

Honestly I should just buy a good range finder and some reloading equipment and work with my .270s instead of buying a new rifle.

[Still Hunter]

Good idea.

[JGH]

My mistake has been to own too many .30-06's. Every time I go looking at rifles, I realize that "I already have that"!

A 6.5 x 55 interests me, as does a .260 Remington. A 7x57 is just "cool". A .300 WSM would be compact and powerful.

If I were in the market for a new rifle (which I'm not, dear, so quit looking at these forums!) I'd be tempted to sort not by caliber but by some other factor:

I don't own a pre-64 Winchester. That'd be cool.

A Win 94 in .30-30 ... cool little saddle gun.

Ooo ... how about a 45-70 take-down guide gun?

Or a Browning BLR in 7mm-08?

Or a Ruger No.1 in some God-awful European caliber?

At some point, we're all going to have to grow old and find new homes for these tools -- sons, daughters, friends will take them, sometimes against the wishes of their spouse, and by that time it may be against the law, too -- and I will want to give them something that they don't already own ... something "cool", classic, and timeless.

The actual ballistics of the thing can be argued about by the snipers out there, and that is an honorable and enjoyable hobby to have. (.338 Lapua, anyone? That'll be a nice hand-me-down.)

[Indian Summer]

JGH.... I like that way of thinking brother!

Maybe a .30-378 and a savings bond to buy ammo when it matures? lol

How about a Thompson Center Encore with interchangeable barrels so you don't really have to make a decision?

[Triplebhunters]

My vote would be with the Winchester pre 64 model 70. I have one in 06.
My safe also contains(as far as big calibers go):
Ruger 77 all weather stainless. 338 win mag.(just to damn loud).
Browning a bolt medallion 300 short mag (awesome rifle).
Ruger 77 44 mag(cool lil 18in barrell).
My favorite would be the Winchester, or build one in ar style just for the fun of it.

[dotman]

I know everyone likes opinions, here you will find all the facts on most cals http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase.html

FYI..the 06 was the original sniper rifle

[Trumkin the Dwarf]

Track down a pre-64 Model 70 Winchester in the glorious 300 H&H. Sure the ammo is harder to find, and you will need to pick up reloading equipment to maximize the potential. But you'll end up doing that anyways!

[Shawn032]

I use Browning BLR lighting 308 win. Its light and very accurate.

[Fridaythe13th]

300 ULTRA MAG vote for me. put a muzzle break on it and it like shooting a 243. Brother shot a cow at 517 yrds no blood trail to follow. I have a Rem 700, brother has a Browning medallion

[pointysticks]

Are the short mags going away ?

My brother has a. 300sm that is so accurate. Me , I'm done buying hunting rifles. My. 06 is about as exciting as a slice of white bread. But it works.

[Lefty]

how about a .338 and call it a day? Lots of flat shooting, smack down power for elk, bear, moose, bigfoots, etc. I know my buddies in MT who had that caliber loved them.

What he said
It will hurt more than your 270

[Triplebhunters]

What have you decided?

[Indian Summer]

Are the short mags going away ?

My brother has a. 300sm that is so accurate. Me , I'm done buying hunting rifles. My. 06 is about as exciting as a slice of white bread. But it works.

I have to admit I never saw the point of short mags. Am I missing something... they seem like buying a Corvette with a 4 cylinder motor to get better mileage or because it's safer. A "sawed off" magnum caliber is... well... not a magnum anymore is it? Maybe I just don't understand the whole concept and I will readily admit I never studied up on them. Never saw a reason to when there is such a wide spectrum of good old fashioned traditional magnum and non-mag calibers to fit anyone.

Example: If I wanted a .300 caliber I could choose from , on the lower end of case capacities a .300 Win Mag. If I wanted more case capacity I could go with the .300 Weatherby. If I wanted the biggest powder keg available I could choose the .300 Ultra Mag. What's the difference between the first two and a .300 short Mag other than the shorter bolt cycle?

[pointysticks]

I'm not up to dipped either. I think the advantage is you pare running a short action. And the short cartridge gets a faster burn do you gain fps. I dunno

[Indian Summer]

I dunno either Pointy but one thing I do know is that people who own them seem to love them so there's something to be said for that.

[Gutpile]

My buddy at work bought a 300sm and regrets it. He has a tough time finding ammo -apparently not many options. I never have that issue with the classic 30.06.

[Triplebhunters]

Are the short mags going away ?

My brother has a. 300sm that is so accurate. Me , I'm done buying hunting rifles. My. 06 is about as exciting as a slice of white bread. But it works.

I have to admit I never saw the point of short mags. Am I missing something... they seem like buying a Corvette with a 4 cylinder motor to get better mileage or because it's safer. A "sawed off" magnum caliber is... well... not a magnum anymore is it? Maybe I just don't understand the whole concept and I will readily admit I never studied up on them. Never saw a reason to when there is such a wide spectrum of good old fashioned traditional magnum and non-mag calibers to fit anyone.

Example: If I wanted a .300 caliber I could choose from , on the lower end of case capacities a .300 Win Mag. If I wanted more case capacity I could go with the .300 Weatherby. If I wanted the biggest powder keg available I could choose the .300 Ultra Mag. What's the difference between the first two and a .300 short Mag other than the shorter bolt cycle?

When the short mags came out I was very skeptical of their longevity, I really wanted the 325 wsm. So I waited, researched, and waited some more. One of the biggest topics of the short mags was reduced recoil compared to the full size magnums with only giving up a couple hundred pds of energy. So my wait was over, I opted for the A bolt medallion in 300 wsm, I figured if any was going to last it would be a 30 cal. The salesman at Gander Mountain says that a woman could shoot it. Well he was wrong there, I won't let my wife or daughters shoot it, the recoil is a little less than my 338 win mag but still much for a woman. I've had no problems finding ammo and ammo prices are a little less than 338 prices. And accuracy is really good, three holes touching at 100 yards on bench. Just baught a new scope for it this past winter. It's to dam pretty to take deer hunting. Would i buy one again? Yep!!!