Rut Areas from Year to Year

[WapitiTalk1]

I've seen rut sign in the same "general" areas for many years in multiple states. Ponder this. In the JUL through early SEP period, the elk have fully settled into their summer patterns consisting of feed, water, bed, mineral licks if present, wallow stops in hot weather, all encompassed in their daily routine/travel routes. These are predominantly cow, calf, and spike groups I'm talking about as the bulls are hanging by themselves until late very late AUG/early SEP. Just wondering, are the rut areas I speak of just opportune spots along these pre-established summer patterns? I'm talking about areas tore up from the ground up with rut sign. It's interesting that elk herd summer patterns change slightly or even significantly from year to year but it appears that, at least to me, there are oftentimes the same major rut sign areas/locations. Are these rut areas just conincidental and mostly linked to the summer patterns/routes, or, is there an actual bilogical/geographical "pull" for bulls to gravitate to certain areas? To use Elknut's phrase "these questions warrant our consideration" Whaddya you folks think. Are rut areas random and occur more in concert with summer patterned elk, or, are they more than that.... areas that draw elk to them for other reasons. Thoughts?

[cnelk]

RJ
I believe there is a difference between rutting areas and breeding areas.
Which one are you interested more in?

[WapitiTalk1]

RJ
I believe there is a difference between rutting areas and breeding areas.
Which one are you interested more in?

Good point cnelk. Let's go with rutting areas; visual rut sign/tore up from the ground up

[JohnFitzgerald]

RJ
I believe there is a difference between rutting areas and breeding areas.
Which one are you interested more in?

Guess I'm confused on what the difference is? Are we talking pre-rut vs. rut area's?

[>>>---WW---->]

To a vast majority of hunters the word rut means when the bulls are actually breeding cows. What RJ is describing could be one of two things or possibly even both.

Sometime, usually early to mid August, the bulls start rubbing velvet off of their antlers. However, they are still in bull groups or as I like to call it, bull holes. But if you try to hunt these areas in September, you are most likely barking up the wrong tree.

That's not saying that they don't rub close to the cows. They do it as a display when cows are near. So my answer to your question would go something like this. If you are finding these fresh rubs early it doesn't mean all that much by the time hunting season rolls around. But if you find fresh rubs in late August to September then you might have something.

A much better way to know where to hunt is to find the cows. 9 times out of 10, where the cows are in late July to early August is where the bulls will be in September. So do your scouting for cows, not bulls. I've seen cow/calf herds with a few spikes or maybe even a raghorn or two hanging with them all summer long. These younger bulls are still just babies that haven't let go of Mama's apron strings yet.

But let that first cow start getting smelly and every mature bull that has a good nose will be in that herd overnight.

[WapitiTalk1]

Jumping in the truck so can't type much. I'm not referring to pre rut, velvet rub stuff but active ground tore up, bushes shredded, multiple trees on saddles or ridges dividing draws skinned. Active rut stuff.

[ElkNut1]

Yep agree with cnelk, rutting/breeding areas, same thing!

ElkNut1

[JohnFitzgerald]

I agree with Bill.

Here's my addition:
There's pre-rut and rut(ie breeding). Bulls enter the rut phase when the cows start dripping.

Torn up ground along with shredded tree's occurs during both but mostly during pre-rut. Bulls really create a mess when rubbing their velvet off.

A lot of guys put an emphisis on rubs. Me, they are assurance that bulls are somewhere near by. But that somewhere might be the next ridge over. So instead of seeking out the rubs I seek out the cows in the early season. Because later during rut, where you found the cows you'll find those stinky piss covered bulls. Bulls go to the cows, not the other way around.

So back to your original questions RJ, I don't know why bachelor herds choose a certain area. Cooler temperatures? Less bugs? But if it's such a paradise, why aren't the cows vacationing there as well? Or are they?

Just my 2-cents and worth nothing more.

[cnelk]

My .01

Rut areas:
An area that bulls will be staging as their testosterone builds.
Thick timber.
The bulls hang out, make their wallows and tear up trees
They will move around, listening, checking the wind and territory
This isnt very far from the...

Breeding areas:
This area is typically flat. Cows like to be bred on flat ground, somewhat open to open.
Bulls will come into the breeding areas to check cows for estrus, the more cows the longer they stay.
If no cows are receptive, they travel back to their rut areas

[JohnFitzgerald]

Daring and interesting opinion Brad! Although I disagree , I'm open minded so tell me more.

[Swede]

Where I hunt the rutting area and the breeding area is the same. Because of outside factors, prerut areas tend to be more on public land. The main reason for the rut and breeding areas being the same is probably due to the fact that there is relatively little elevation change across the vast area of elk habitat.

[otcWill]

Here is an area similar to what Swede describes. This is in a 1pt draw unit on a bench with a large/thick swamp surrounding it on 3 sides. I've seen some awesome fighting in here almost every time I've been. Just a total elk magnet with some giant bulls. Seems to be bedding/rutting/breeding area. Doesn't hurt that its NF between two huge private/non-hunting parcels!

[Swamp Buck]

In the area that I hunt in the herd gets pushed around a lot, many miles, all throughout the elk seasons. As they get pushed all over the unit the rutting and/or breeding areas move as well. I do think that they as they get pushed around they have favorite holes that they escape too.

[cnelk]

Daring and interesting opinion Brad! Although I disagree , I'm open minded so tell me more.

JF
What would you like me to tell more about?
What part(s) do you disagree?

[BrentLaBere]

"This area is typically flat. Cows like to be bred on flat ground, somewhat open to open." - cnelk

What do you mean by open to open?

[cnelk]

"This area is typically flat. Cows like to be bred on flat ground, somewhat open to open." - cnelk

What do you mean by somewhat open to open?

Look at Will's pic above. That is what I would consider 'somewhat open' as the elk can see each other.
Opposed to thick, heavy, blow down timber.

'Open' would be parks or meadows...

[BrentLaBere]

Thanks, that makes sense. I found areas that looked just like that with old sign-maybe the years prior. It was lower in elevation to where we were hunting and finding elk. The rutting I did see was in thicker timber. It was a group of 15 cows and 1 bull tending them with two confirmed bulls harassing him. I was thinking this may have been the very beginning of the rut or one cow may have been earlier than the rest. They were not very far from the summer areas we found them.

[cnelk]

I should clarify my .01...

I hunt a vast area. Over 100sq miles.
Where I see 'rutting' action, I dont see many cows.
Where I see cows, I dont see much rutting action

I know of specific spots that are breeding areas - flat and 'somewhat open to open terrain' - places where cows are more apt to respond
And I know of specific rutting areas - wallows, rubs where bulls are more apt to respond

Where I hunt, these two areas probably become one in some places, but that is after the season is over

[JohnFitzgerald]

I should clarify my .01...

I hunt a vast area. Over 100sq miles.
Where I see 'rutting' action, I dont see many cows.
Where I see cows, I dont see much rutting action

I know of specific spots that are breeding areas - flat and 'somewhat open to open terrain' - places where cows are more apt to respond
And I know of specific rutting areas - wallows, rubs where bulls are more apt to respond

Where I hunt, these two areas probably become one in some places, but that is after the season is over

Thanks Brad, you have my interest peaked. Rubs aren't really rut activity are they? Wouldn't that be considered pre-rut?

If dominant bulls leaves the cows during or close to the rut, wouldn't it be really easy for a satellite to come in and snag them up?

Cow's can come in and out of estrus very quickly. Sometimes only a day. If the bull isn't managing the herd all the time, he could miss out.

What's your thoughts Brad?

[WapitiTalk1]

"Are rut areas random and occur more in concert with summer patterned elk, or, are they more than that.... areas that draw elk to them for other reasons?

This was my original query but it seems this thread has evolved a bit (in a good way)

Swamp Buck: "In the area that I hunt in the herd gets pushed around a lot, many miles, all throughout the elk seasons. As they get pushed all over the unit the rutting and/or breeding areas move as well. I do think that they as they get pushed around they have favorite holes that they escape too." Makes sense Swamp Buck and actually comments/responds to my original quesiton. I have experienced this same phenomenon. There are those favorite holes (whether pockets on steep sidehills, a ridge above or leading to a saddle, or perhaps a spot that otcWill offered) that seem to recurrently have significant rutting bulls/rutting sign almost every year.

cnelk: Rut areas:
An area that bulls will be staging as their testosterone builds.
Thick timber.
The bulls hang out, make their wallows and tear up trees
They will move around, listening, checking the wind and territory
This isnt very far from the...

Breeding areas:
This area is typically flat. Cows like to be bred on flat ground, somewhat open to open.
Bulls will come into the breeding areas to check cows for estrus, the more cows the longer they stay.
If no cows are receptive, they travel back to their rut areas

I think cnelk is on the money; I've just never heard it put into words like this. Elk like flat areas where they find them for many reasons (saddles, meadows, parks, even clearcuts) for feeding, bedding, and I agree..... breeding. Elk groups consist of mostly cows, calves, and immature bulls. Sooo, since the majority of the cows dig the flat areas and spend as much time there as possible (hunting/predator pressure dependent), it makes sense that the cows would do most of their breeding in these areas. Things that make you go hmmmmm

[ElkNut1]

I believe the word "rut" is being used too vague here! There is "pre-rut" "peak-rut" & "post-rut" -- We do not want to confuse these as all being Peak Rut or Peak Breeding! They are not. Peak Breeding & Peak Rut go hand in hand, this is where most of the challenging & competing is going on where herd bulls are protecting their harems from intruder bulls, these herd bulls do not leave these cows unattended as they show signs of estrus. If this were so you would rarely find a bull with the cow groups. Basically there would be no herd bulls if bulls only checked on cows periodically & then left them to go to a rutting ground away from possible hot cows during peak rut times.

No doubt during the pre-rut stages bulls do not have to be with a particular cow group, instead they will hang in their bachelor groups or some bulls like being loners, these bulls can leave their areas & check on cows they know to be in the vicinity to see if any are showing signs of coming into estrus. This is not peak rut or peak breeding time!

Too, it is very common to hunt several different herds in the course of a week hunt during peak breeding & see the same bulls with the same cows this entire time.

As far as breeding/rutting areas go, these can be anywhere, in many areas it's the same places year after year but it's also notable that pressure from hunters or predators can have elk re-locate these breeding areas when there's severe intrusion.

ElkNut1

[JohnFitzgerald]

The picture above is pretty cool! I think the reason for so many different rubs is that bark is courser than the inside wood. Starting new rubs will help pull the velvet off easier.

[Willie makit]

Two questions from a noob,

1. What is the difference between a meadow and a park? My guess is the size of the clearing, with park being much larger?


2.

Cow's can come in and out of estrus very quickly. Sometimes only a day. If the bull isn't managing the herd all the time, he could miss out.

. Are you saying that if a cow misses being breed this one cycle that's it for the year, and she will go without calving the next year.? Or do they cycle up to 3 times as whitetail do?

[cnelk]

Yes.
A park is in reference to a meadow. It could be small or big

A cow elk will cycle every 21 days or so.
Depending on the bull/cow ratio will determine if she gets bred

Pre-Rut v. Rut v. Post Rut

I think Pre-rut lasts the longest and this is what most hunters experience.

Rut depends on the cows and the availability of bulls. It can be sporadic

Post rut depends on if any cows were missed by bulls

[JohnFitzgerald]

Two questions from a noob,

1. What is the difference between a meadow and a park? My guess is the size of the clearing, with park being much larger?


2.

Cow's can come in and out of estrus very quickly. Sometimes only a day. If the bull isn't managing the herd all the time, he could miss out.

. Are you saying that if a cow misses being breed this one cycle that's it for the year, and she will go without calving the next year.? Or do they cycle up to 3 times as whitetail do?

Their estrus cycle lasts between 1-3 days. I think they can come in more than once. Let me see if I can find some resource material.

[JohnFitzgerald]

Two questions from a noob,

1. What is the difference between a meadow and a park? My guess is the size of the clearing, with park being much larger?


2.

Cow's can come in and out of estrus very quickly. Sometimes only a day. If the bull isn't managing the herd all the time, he could miss out.

. Are you saying that if a cow misses being breed this one cycle that's it for the year, and she will go without calving the next year.? Or do they cycle up to 3 times as whitetail do?

Their estrus cycle lasts between 1-3 days. I think they can come in more than once. Let me see if I can find some resource material.

Reproductive cycle

http://www.worldanimalfoundation.net/f/Elk.pdf

[JohnFitzgerald]

Two questions from a noob,

1. What is the difference between a meadow and a park? My guess is the size of the clearing, with park being much larger?


2.

Cow's can come in and out of estrus very quickly. Sometimes only a day. If the bull isn't managing the herd all the time, he could miss out.

. Are you saying that if a cow misses being breed this one cycle that's it for the year, and she will go without calving the next year.? Or do they cycle up to 3 times as whitetail do?

Their estrus cycle lasts between 1-3 days. I think they can come in more than once. Let me see if I can find some resource material.

Looks like some cows can come in a second time if they aren't breed early.

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rut_(mammalian_reproduction)" *****copy and paste this in your URL bar.

Scroll down to elk. I think most agree that a large portion of the breeding gets done from mid Sept. through early Oct.

Point being, the bulls don't leave the cows unless they have to.

[ElkNut1]

Check out the PlayBook guys! I have all this info written it so we can all be educated & take the guessing out of the equation! (grin)

Cows come into estrus for aprox 12-15 hours not for days, they can cycle up to 4 times if they have not conceived their first time around or have not been covered. They will cycle again if needed every 21 days aprox. The 1st cows that come into estrus are the oldest cows, these are the ones generally in the 7-8 year old & older, they can come in as early as last week in Aug. the 2nd most known estrus period (peak estrus) is from the Sept 12-25. A 3rd cycle can take place aprox the 15th of Oct. & a fourth one in early Nov. The Nov cycle is experienced by only a few cows here & there. This is why ones can experience some great bugling action in this Nov time frame.

Just to keep things less confusing a meadow or park can be considered the same thing, yes some parks or meadows are larger than others but just the same they are very similar. This photo here is considered a basin by many yet it could also be said that the meadow in the bottom is park like! Keeping things simple helps newer ones to be less confused.

The nice photo above supplied by octWill is more of a staging area that bulls use on a yearly basis, note the old & new rubs, this place has been a place bulls frequent every year rubbing velvet & polishing their antlers, they can also establish pecking orders in this time frame of several weeks & generally they are through with it by mid Sept.

ElkNut1

[JohnFitzgerald]

I don't think we are guessing, but we are learning. Discussing and having great conversation with a knowledgable group of guys is my goal for posting.

[cnelk]

We as hunters are concerned about the rut.

Elk are concerned with living and being sure they continue to live.
Which really means when the calves hit the ground in the spring.

Too early means low survival rate due to weather.
Too late means a small calf going into fall.

The gestation period for elk is ~8 1/2 months.
Elk calves are typically hitting the ground in mid May

That means the cows should be bred about mid-Sept to early Oct for best time to have their calf in the spring

[>>>---WW---->]

BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!

[JohnFitzgerald]

Yes Bill, breeding between mid-sept through early oct. is the bingo. Just like I stated above!

During that time the majority of the cows get bred. Calf survival rate needs the best chance possible. So logic tells us that the bulls will be in rut or peak rut during this time. This to me means bulls will be very close to the cows so they don't miss their chance. But what has me interested is what Brad notices in regards to rub/wallow areas vs. flatter areas. Brad, do you notice this even during the bingo time?

[ElkNut1]

Great comments, spot on Brad!

ElkNut1

[ORelksniper]

I've come to believe that the area I hunt is a rut/breeding area. Also, based on what I've seen, there is no distinction between the two terms. There are some resident elk that hang in my area all summer but not that many judging from available sign. I do find lots of elk crap that was dropped in late spring to very early summer. In a typical year I will not find any rubs or any other testosterone building signs. No pre rut activity.

For several years the first two weeks of the season were a sleeper. Then, like magic, the elk would start to show up in small groups (herds) with a bull dragging along behind. As more elk moved into the area the intensity would build. Challenges were thrown out, fights for dominance took place, and breeding commenced. All of this took place in the last two weeks of the season and gave me plenty of time to get the job done. The past two years the elk haven't moved in until the final 3-4 days of the season. Don't know why and haven't been able to figure out where they come from. JF, are you out there?

The point to this whole thing is yes, RJ (phantom), in my area the elk rut/breed in the same places every year. Why the timing has changed so much in the past couple of years is a mystery I'd like to solve.

[Swede]

Sniper: I can't help you with your mystery, but the cows are coming into estrus at the same time every year and the bulls are ready. Why they are not in your area or why you are not seeing them, I do not know. That could be the result of several things. Are you sure you are not just getting old and it its the eye sight thing?

[ORelksniper]

I most definitely am getting older...maybe even old, but I did get new glasses this year. Actually had a real eye exam by a real optometrist. Those Wal Mart glasses just weren't working anymore. Hearing aids are next on the rebuild list. I hate getting old.

Yeh, I know the timing hasn't changed (it's based on the autumnal equinox) but there are other forces at work that I just can't nail down. Prolly an age related thing, too.

[cnelk]

But what has me interested is what Brad notices in regards to rub/wallow areas vs. flatter areas. Brad, do you notice this even during the bingo time?

JF

By the time Bingo time comes around, the bigger bulls have moved down the cow areas.
And since we have a 'Quiet time' [no hunting] for two full weeks after archery and before the first rifle season, the flat cow areas are full of bulls at that time.
This is our 'Bingo Time'

I do know for a fact that cows do not like to be bred on a steep slope, or wont receive the bull on a slope.

I mean think about it. An 800lb bull mounting a cow, the terrain better be good dont ya think?

[JohnFitzgerald]

But what has me interested is what Brad notices in regards to rub/wallow areas vs. flatter areas. Brad, do you notice this even during the bingo time?

JF

By the time Bingo time comes around, the bigger bulls have moved down the cow areas.
And since we have a 'Quiet time' [no hunting] for two full weeks after archery and before the first rifle season, the flat cow areas are full of bulls at that time.
This is our 'Bingo Time'

I do know for a fact that cows do not like to be bred on a steep slope, or wont receive the bull on a slope.

I mean think about it. An 800lb bull mounting a cow, the terrain better be good dont ya think?

Ah, ok I misunderstood your comment about the bulls staying away from the cows. I thought you meant they even stay away from Mid Sept - early Oct. We are on the same page, my bad. Maybe picking on Swede once will make everything right!

[JohnFitzgerald]

I've come to believe that the area I hunt is a rut/breeding area. Also, based on what I've seen, there is no distinction between the two terms. There are some resident elk that hang in my area all summer but not that many judging from available sign. I do find lots of elk crap that was dropped in late spring to very early summer. In a typical year I will not find any rubs or any other testosterone building signs. No pre rut activity.

For several years the first two weeks of the season were a sleeper. Then, like magic, the elk would start to show up in small groups (herds) with a bull dragging along behind. As more elk moved into the area the intensity would build. Challenges were thrown out, fights for dominance took place, and breeding commenced. All of this took place in the last two weeks of the season and gave me plenty of time to get the job done. The past two years the elk haven't moved in until the final 3-4 days of the season. Don't know why and haven't been able to figure out where they come from. JF, are you out there?

The point to this whole thing is yes, RJ (phantom), in my area the elk rut/breed in the same places every year. Why the timing has changed so much in the past couple of years is a mystery I'd like to solve.

What.....I'm there! Where am I? I've been thinking about that area for some time. Swede or sniper, is more private property going to fee hunting around your area? Once, over 300 head moved out of privately owned land near Pilot Rock Oregon. The fee hunting outfit went under and they stopped feeding the elk. To add to that, the ranch that bought them out started running livestock. After they migrated, the hunting was insane on the public side for a couple years . Could bigger herds be migrating onto the private property? Outfitters providing better feed while livestock eats up the resources on the public side? I'm assuming the wild horse population is still relatively small.

[Swede]

John, the wild horses are north of us. I don't think hunting on the private land is the issue. What has been happening, for years, is the private ranch is a sanctuary for the elk. The ranch is huge and getting bigger, as the land owner can afford to buy up the private land in the area. Much of the land was owned by a lumber Co. but anyone could get permission to hunt it. That is gone now. The rancher has cattle grazing the Forest Service land before and during the hunting season, In my opinion, the ranch is heavily over grazing the public land and the Forest Service to date has done little or nothing. In this area several of us on this forum hunt, cattle grazing, and an influx of more bow hunters due to more areas being draw only, and the reduced units allowing either sex hunting, has combined to really change bow hunting. I would note that the change has not had a large affect on hunter success. What I am seeing are more tree stands and fewer folks out calling. Hunting, including tactics and the spots people hunt is evolving in our area.

[ORelksniper]

JF, ditto what Swede said, and more. I won't go into it further on this thread, though.

RJ, I apologize for taking your thread away from its original intent.

[WapitiTalk1]

No worries here sniper. I am just a lifelong student of this thing we call elk hunting. As usual on "the" elk forum, I learn a bit more each time one of these threads facilitate discussion and evolve.