Elk Calling Question

[JohnFitzgerald]

Bull's use short screams to gather up cow. So does a bull ever direct a scream towards another bull? To me the scream is a "come here now" sound like when he's trying to gather cows. But I hear hunters talk about screaming at a herd bull. Are they really addressing the bull or are they posing a threat to the bull by trying to call his cows?

If the scream is not a "get out of here before I kick your butt" type sound, what sound gives that impression? Is there one? Sure there is the Challenge Bugle, but it really doesn't have the verbal "shock" I'm looking for.

Help understanding?

[Wapiti]

I kind of had a memory from way back when I read your question. Back when I was a lot younger and in the bar days !!

We were walking up to a bar and a guy was screaming at this girl to get over to him as she obviously was attracted to another guy that was standing beside her. The guy screaming must of been the EX !! Well his screaming at the girl never worked so he started in on the guy beside her !!

He was calling him names and putting him down just like an elk screaming would do to another bull..... well the guy finally had enough of the guy screaming and yelling at him and he walked over and knocked him flat on his butt with a smashing punch in the face !!!!!!

I feel we are the same as elk and I have used the scream to bring elk in many times. I have had the odd cow come have a look as well though. But I feel the screams are reserved for the bull. You get in close and scream at him and he should feel threatened and they don't like that.... he's coming to knock you flat on your butt !!

Trav

[Wapiti]

I also feel the challenge bugle is more to impress the ladies with how awesome they sound.

Challenge Bugle = impress the ladies so they pick him over another bull

Scream = Says get ready for a fight.....your toast !!

[Swede]

I will wait to read what Elknut has to say on this, but I have thought the scream or challenge bugle was designed more to intimidate other bulls that may be too close. I have to admit that on my own I have had a very limited understanding of elk communication. Elknut knows the language, better than anyone else I know.

[flystrait]

I believe the scream is a big F you! Either to the bull or from the bull. The times I have mostly heard this is when the bulls are close and they tend to come running right at you. Sometimes when I think back about certian circumstances, the bulls scream is such a chilling sound its hard to describe. Chilling to say the least!

[JohnFitzgerald]

Ah, good comment Wapiti! Thanks for responding.

Scream:
You said, "He feels threatened". So does he feel that because you are telling him your going to kick his butt or is he threatened because you are trying to call his cows? Do hunters automatically assume that a successful "scream" worked because it was a threat directed at the bull? When a herd is restless, bulls will short scream their cows to draw them in or back. The terms "come here now" and "get away or I will kick your butt" have completely different meanings. Does the scream have dual meanings?

Challenge Bugle:
Your definition of a Challenge Bugles seems more like and Advertising Bugle.

Thoughts?

[JohnFitzgerald]

I will wait to read what Elknut has to say on this, but I have thought the scream or challenge bugle was designed more to intimidate other bulls that may be too close. I have to admit that on my own I have had a very limited understanding of elk communication. Elknut knows the language, better than anyone else I know.

I'd like to hear what others have to say, as well as Paul.

[Wapiti]

Ah, good comment Wapiti! Thanks for responding.

Scream:
You said, "He feels threatened". So does he feel that because you are telling him your going to kick his butt or is he threatened because you are trying to call his cows? Do hunters automatically assume that a successful "scream" worked because it was a threat directed at the bull? When a herd is restless, bulls will short scream their cows to draw them in or back. The terms "come here now" and "ger away or I will kick your butt" have completely different meanings. Does the scream have dual meanings?

Challenge Bugle:
Your definition of a Challenge Bugles seems more like and Advertising Bugle.

Thoughts?

I feel when a bull get's screamed at, it is a challenge that must be met ! A successful scream only works if you are close to the bull and I guess it provokes a fight or flight thought. So when they are in that close proximity the usual outcome is the bull charging in.

The short scream you are referring sounds to me more like a groan of sorts. Sounds like a bark but in a short scream. Which bulls use to ask another bull ( You )to show themselves. You will hear it when they get to there bedding area and you have been dogging them up the ridge. The bull will finally stand his ground and give these short groans just before he bugles at you.

Although I am just guessing at the short scream sound you are referring to. We could be talking about different sounds here altogether but I don't think so.

Yes my Challenge bugle is more of a Advertising Bugle. It's the nice loud bugle with the lip bawl at the end.

The lead cow also does the cow buzz which is more demanding much like the " come here now !! " She in fact is the boss and rounds up the other's and the bull merely follows along. Some call it the estrus buzz which I believe is falsely named. You hear that sound throughout the year and is normal elk chatter.

[Swede]

I feel when a bull get's screamed at, it is a challenge that must be met ! A successful scream only works if you are close to the bull and I guess it provokes a fight or flight thought. So when they are in that close proximity the usual outcome is the bull charging in.

This depends on which bull is making the scream. If it is the herd bull, it is his way or warning the lesser bull to back away. It is also used at times to warn a lesser elk they are intruding into the wrong territory such as a wallow or other special niche.

[JohnFitzgerald]

Here's my 2-cents.
My short screams are just that, short screams or short lip bawl bugles. A bull uses the Advertising Bugle in attempts to advertise himself a "worthy" bull to cow(s). No threat, just announcing. The standard definition for a Challenge Bugle is that it's used for intimidation. I pose this question, is the Challenge Bugle more of an aggressive Advertising Bugle?

Here's my theory that I've had for a while. Don't hack on me too hard.

Theory: During the rut, rival bulls have very little to say to each other. Almost every sound they make is directed at cows. Boxers rarely say a word to each other before a fight, even when they are seated right beside each other. They talk a lot of crap, flex a lot, then punch each other in the face. After experiencing many encounters, I'm beginning to wonder if bulls do the same thing.

[Swede]

I have heard screams when satellite bulls were near and no physical confrontation ensued. I believe bulls scream out a warning to intimidate others and avoid the physical part. I think charges can be a part of the intimidation used to just run off a rival.

[JohnFitzgerald]

But once again, was he telling the satellites to back off or telling is cows to stay close/gather up. Sorry don't mean to step on toes.

[Swede]

John: You have an excellent question going here. Let me ask a related question. What has been your experience in this situation. Did the bull come at you or did he leave immediately with his cows? My experience is limited, but I have seen both situations. Regardless of how the response started, the bull will soon leave one way or the other.

[JohnFitzgerald]

Great question Swede! In a real herd situation, if cow(s) are in estrus, the herd bull will try to maintain control of the herd. He gets agitated and in return becomes more aggressive in herd tending. He'll scream at his cows in a demanding tone because he wants them tight and close.

Now we add the hunter into the play. You(the hunter) imitate a bull and bugle at him. The real bull might scream, maybe. But if he does I think he's tending his cows because you are within his comfort zone. How many times have hunters encountered a calling situation like this only to have the herd wonder off? It's because you're just like the rest of the satellites that he's dealt with for the last 2 days. As long as he keeps his cows close, you pose no threat. But if you're in close and scream, I believe you are a threat because you are talking to his cows and trying to manage them.

Someone tell me what sound a bull makes that says "Come over here and you'll get your butt kicked" or "Go away or you'll get your but kicked". It's just hard for me to believe that a scream alone is this sound. Is it the Challenge Bugle? But once again, is the bull asserting his dominance more aggressively with his cows or actually throwing out a challenge for a fight?

Maybe I'm way off on my thinking.

[Wapiti]

But once again, was he telling the satellites to back off or telling is cows to stay close/gather up. Sorry don't mean to step on toes.

My mind races back to a special encounter I had this year with a fantastic herd bull with about 12-15 cows. To start off I used a location bugle and he answered back after about 2 minutes. So I moved in on him and he started to call more and was getting worked up. I got to about 100 yards and I cow called to get him to answer me back and he did so I screamed at him in an effort to challenge him and get him to come in.

Like some times happens the cows moved away and he followed bugling the whole way up a ridge. I pressed on and the elk moved into thick willows on the left side of the ridge. I moved into what I figured to be 80-100 yards from the herd and it was as close as I could get. I once again cow called and the bull bugled and finish with his bugle in a lip bawl. So he was getting pretty worked up and the elk moved straight up the ridge to the top. It was about 150 yards to the top. I moved up the ridge but was stopped by a satellite bull that walked out from the willows silently !!

The young sat bull was only about 60 yards away and the herd bull bugled again so I screamed at him hoping to bring him down the ridge. The herd bull held his ground and screamed back at me. The sat bull came closer and closer to check me out. He could see me plain as day and was not scared at all !! Then a cow came out of the willows from where the sat bull had come from. I assumed it was a cow but could have been a young antlerless bull as it just stood and watched the battle begin between me and the herd bull. The herd bull would scream and I would scream back. This went on for about 45 minutes !! It was an epic battle and I was finally about 40 yards from the top of the ridge but the herd bull held the ridge and would not come down.

I peered over the top of the ridge and the cows were standing there looking my direction. The cows were now between me and the herd bull so I thought this perfect I got his cows now !! The bull bugled again and I screamed right back and over top of his bugle as to really try to make him mad !! He didn't like that and we screamed at each other for another 15 minutes !! This was the most I had ever bugled and screamed at an elk and I was getting tired and my throat was feeling the wear and tear of the battle !!

The cows finally moved away to the left along the ridge and the bull fell in behind the herd. I had lost the battle as the bull kept bugling as they moved away. I was lucky and had the wind the whole time or this epic battle would have never taken place !!

The whole battle last for 1 hour and 40 minutes and I actually had 2 friends with me that had never hunted elk before !! They are now hooked for life and can't wait to come back next year !! This was truly the best elk fight I have ever had and to have 2 great friends along was fantastic. There jaws were wide open and they could not believe what they had witnessed. They both said I sounded just like the real elk and were very shocked at how aggressive I was. I told them that is how it has to be many times. I was raking trees and busting branches as big as my arm as I smashed them into the poplars being very aggressive.

So in getting back to your question John I honestly know for sure he was screaming at me and not the cows. But the bad boy just wouldn't commit and come in. So I feel he was telling me to back off like you feel as well. I never heard the cows at all the whole time. The satellite bull hung around the whole time as well. Then the herd moved off and I'm not sure if the bull initiated the move or the lead cow.

So sorry I got so long winded. I was just trying to set the stage as we try and figure out what the scream really means !! LOL

Trav

[JohnFitzgerald]

Trav,

Trust me, 2 month ago if someone posted what I did about the scream, I would be all over it trying to explain their incorrect reasoning. Heck, I can't even believe what I'm saying about it now. But....I witnessed a herd bull screaming at his cows to gather them up. No other bull was nearby or bugling. How can the exact same sound have two different opposite meanings? Go away now and come here now. We must be missing something.

Paul - can you chime in with your thought?

[Wapiti]

Trav,

Trust me, 2 month ago if someone posted what I did about the scream, I would be all over it trying to explain their incorrect reasoning. Heck, I can't even believe what I'm saying about it now. But....I witnessed a herd bull screaming at his cows to gather them up. No other bull was nearby or bugling. How can the exact same sound have two different opposite meanings? Go away now and come here now. We must be missing something.

Paul - can you chime in with your thought?

Now you got me thinking there must be more than one meaning to many sounds elk make. Just like the " Estrus Buzz " maybe it does say I'm ready to breed to a bull but it also say's let's round up quickly to the other cows.

Did you bugle at all to the screaming elk and did he hear you come in on him ? Just curious if he may have been screaming at you.

This is very interesting.

[JohnFitzgerald]

I was sitting down watching a meadow during deer season. The herd came of the canyon and started to break up a little as they passed. Then the herd bull, which was a toad, started getting restless. The screams sure set everything right. Every cow was looking at him when he did this.

Dang, now we have a conflict in our Estrus Buzz meaning. Many of us know the sound definition as "elk looking for other elk". Here's a great example. As you can see, she's is search mode.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrW-OAn8VA4

[ElkNut1]

Wow, lot's going on in this thread! (grin) Now you know why I introduced the "Sounds By The Elk CD" That CD will help with all the confusion here as to what sound is what & what does it sound like from the elk themselves! What one hunter may see as scream by a bull another may think of it as a casual bugle or a challenge. The same can go from any sound an elk will make whether it's coming from a bull or a cow. This is why it's fairly important to understand one sound from another & have an accurate meaning of it. This can only be done by hearing these various bugles or cow talk over a period of years, by doing this one can get a complete picture of how they all fit & one thought does not contradict another. It's not wise or fair to take a single encounter & base all your thoughts on that one time then come up with its meaning.


This is to John's original questions!

When Bulls are interested in a cow or cows & they give a direction through their bugle for the cow to meet them or come over to them that's what it means to other elk. A bulls age in being young or old can change ones tone, some may sound more immature than another but the bugle or scream used means the same thing to a cow. Some of these can be nonchalant & some can be urgent in tone all depending on the situation. Is this bull trying to call a lone cow, is this bull trying to call cows from a herd bull, is there a cow in heat or is he just interested in building his herd. These two situations where the same bugle or scream can be heard can sound a bit different as a urgent tone may be used in one instance but not the other. I believe this is where some of the confusion is amongst some here.

Of course this same bugle can be used towards another bull, it's simply elk talk, it's no different than ones talking to their wives or a male good friend, we still use the same words to both parties.

In many instances other sounds are used by bulls in addition to their bugle or scream depending on the encounter at hand, this can really help us to determine their mind set & what the message is they are trying to get across. We need to keep it simple as we learn, each elk sound has its place & one sound does not have multiple meanings, yes some are more demanding or urgent than others because of an intense encounter while other encounters are more laid back in their tones, these would be a more casual atmosphere.


As a sidenote the Estrus Buzz is not a Breeding Sound. It's a sound cows will use for contact, separated or we are over here so come this way or where are you. The thing with this sound is it too can become very repetitious in use as the occasion calls for it.

I see there are many other questions so I will see about them individually! (grin)

ElkNut1

[ElkNut1]

So as not to get too much going on the past post I will mention here that an Advertising Bugle & a Challenging Bugle have no connection they are two different sounds used in two entirely different situations. What can & does happen is that an Advertising Bugle by one bull can turn into a Challenging Bugle confrontation, how? Let's say a new bull shows up in an area as he's trolling for cows or looking for other elk in general as his testosterone levels rise, he has the desire as does any bull in Sept does. If this Advertising bull bugles too close to a herd bull & his cows he can receive a Challenging or Intimidation type bugle from this herd bull for him to get away or else! If this Advertising bull is intimidated he could leave but if not intimidated he could now bugle a Challenge of his own. So you see this Advertising bull can switch gears in a heartbeat if he so desire depending on the situation.

In many instances a single bull can be relating more than one message as the occasion calls for it. let's say we bugle & a bull responds with a Challenge to stay away, in a few seconds he gives a short scream or bugle followed by soft chuckling. What's going on? This herd bull is trying to intimidate the bull (you) & he's trying to keep his cows close by so he calls to them to gather together through the use of the short bugle & chuckling. Things as this are very common, dissecting a bulls sounds can really give us hunters the edge in evaluating an encounter & give us the upper hand. What we do not want to do is ball all the sounds into one & chalk them up to "there's a bull over there" and let it go at that. - Instead understand what you're hearing & then act accordingly, form a game plan that will stack the odds in your favor since you now know what's going on!

ElkNut1

[elkmtngear]

If a bull screams, puts himself between me and his cows, and starts tearing up a tree...I'm guessing all that is directed at me (the rival bull)

Or maybe, he's just "posing" for his cows? Gotta show the ladies who has the biggest cojones?

Like Paul said, I think it can be "situational" in regard to the intent of the vocalization.

[ElkNut1]

As a bull has many bugles & tones that represent the situation at hand he likewise will rake/thrash around & all have their meaning depending on time frame being done. All raking is not equal! In your "situation" his raking is representing a displaying action towards the other bull, (you) it can be a challenging or a sizing up one another type situation. He is not displaying for his cows here. It's quite common for this other bull (you) to now start raking himself once within range & they will size one another up as competitors for the cows. This raking in itself can intimidate lesser bulls & they can shy away!

ElkNut1

[>>>---WW---->]

Bull's use short screams to gather up cow. So does a bull ever direct a scream towards another bull? To me the scream is a "come here now" sound like when he's trying to gather cows. But I hear hunters talk about screaming at a herd bull. Are they really addressing the bull or are they posing a threat to the bull by trying to call his cows?

If the scream is not a "get out of here before I kick your butt" type sound, what sound gives that impression? Is there one? Sure there is the Challenge Bugle, but it really doesn't have the verbal "shock" I'm looking for.

Help understanding?

Here above is the original question that John ask. This thing as taken off in about ump-teen different directions! It isn't challenge bugles, estrus buzz,(which has nothing to do with estrus), raking, lip bawls, or any other sounds. It was ask about screams directed at cows and if they are ever directed at bulls.

The simple answer to John's question is YES !!... And Wapiti's example of the guy in the bar is spot on. Elk sounds are based on emotion, period. The same sound can have different meanings depending upon the situation. They guy in the bar may have used different words but the tone of his voice as well as his emotion was the same to the other guy as it was to the lady. If you want to read any more into it, you may need to see the body language as well.

John: A day or so ago you posted a short video of a bull defending his herd and the battle that followed. I love that vid. If you pay close attention, it has a whole variety of elk sounds and emotions in it. Did you notice the herd bull scream and give a few short chuckles at his cows. He also screamed at the other bull. And then towards the end there was a lesser bull coming in screaming to get the cows to try to obtain the spoils of the battle.

That video is well worth anyone trying to learn elk talk to take a VERY close look at. Try to learn from it.

[JohnFitzgerald]

Thanks guys for responding! I actually posted this thread in support of that Video Thread.

Sorry, but I completely disagree that the herd bull was screaming/bugling at the 2nd satellite to get away. His cow's were on the move and being pushed away. The scream/bugle in my opinion was directed at his cow.

Opps, John did it again!

[elkmtngear]

If this Advertising bull bugles too close to a herd bull & his cows he can receive a Challenging or Intimidation type bugle from this herd bull for him to get away or else! ElkNut1

So John, are you saying the above statement is inaccurate? Herd bulls do not (vocally) challenge other bulls? Or, if they do, it must be the classic "challenge bugle"?

In a confrontational situation, tempers flare, and all kind of language can ensue. As Bill said, elk vocalizations are about emotion...I think one can hear the emotional quality in even a short bugle (scream).

[JohnFitzgerald]

During prime rut when cows are in estrus it's not about emotion or tempers it's about the right to breed as many cows as possible. In my opinion, those are human characterics that we try to transplant onto rutting buls. I never hear emotion in an elk's vocalization during this time, but what I do hear is the Aggresive Level over the right to breed the cows.

Will I come out and say that the Challenge Bugle is the only communication done between rutting bulls.....no I can not! But what I'm willing to say is that many sounds that hunters attribute to bull-2-bull conversation is really bull-2-cow conversation. Example, sometimes you'll get bulls trying to out bugle each other. They are presenting themselfs to the cows as a more suitable breeder and not actually directing it at another bull. Does it sound like they are talking back and forth, sure does. But when you stop and think, really it's all about the cows!

I know, boos and hisses all around.

Just my 2-cents.

[WapitiTalk1]

Booooo. Hissssssssss.

[elkmtngear]

Well, I think most hunters never hear the real bull to cow conversations...it's all whispers and glunks..Barry White Style

Love (or lust) IS an emotion, Baby!

[JohnFitzgerald]

Who's Barry White? Maybe I should ask my dad or grandpa.

I have love or lust, bulls have instinct.

Come on RJ, those are weak boos and hisses! You can do better than that.

[Swede]

I completely understand John's point. I too have struggled many times with interpreting bull vocalizations. This past late September, I heard a short bull bugle off in the timber about 100-150 yards away. It was just one short call. The wind was swirling relentlessly, so I knew I could not go to him. As I sat across the draw, I listened a little while, and decided how I would reach out to the bull. It was a guess. I could not tell if it was a satellite or herd bull. In our area they are the same size pretty much. I have come across four point herd bulls. The problem was, I had limited information and had to make just a guess. I was not close enough to pressure him, so I tried a cow call. It did not work. I thought about chuckling, but in the end I doubt it would have mattered.
The problem is that, I will never get enough close up elk encounters to understand elk vocalizations, like Paul and some others here. Where I hunt chasing elk usually sends them off to the nearby ranch anyway. I'm climbing back into my tree and going to wait it out.

[elkmtngear]

Who's Barry White?

When it gets down to the pillow talk...aren't we all operating on insinct?

[JohnFitzgerald]

Who's Barry White?

When it gets down to the pillow talk...aren't we all operating on insinct?

LOL!

[WapitiTalk1]

Yikes! Perhaps elkmtgear is giving a preview of a new slip cover system (The Crooning Barry)? Heck, attach a small audio player to the camera mount on top and play that soundtrack and you may be overrun by the herd

I'm thinking of throwing a 10 yard flag on this one. John F? Should elkmtgear be flagged for hurting our eyes with BW's picture on an otherwise normal elk discussion thread? I guess I could pick the flag up and give him a puzzled look instead Thoughts?

[elkmtngear]

Should elkmtgear be flagged for hurting our eyes with BW's picture on an otherwise normal elk discussion thread? I guess I could pick the flag up and give him a puzzled look instead Thoughts?

Guilty as charged...but no less guilty than John, for trying to upset the known universe when it comes to elk vocalizations!

And now, back to our regularly scheduled program

[WapitiTalk1]

Guilty as charged...but no less guilty than John, for trying to upset the known universe when it comes to elk vocalizations!

Oh yeah, he's being watched closely by "the elders".. I agree, back to the current program.. Sorry JF

[JohnFitzgerald]

John, for trying to upset the known universe when it comes to elk vocalizations!

Known universe or misinterpreted universe? If we step outside our compfort zone, we might just see that the universe is a big place with undiscovered solar systems. Me, I'm a cutting edge explorer.

[Wapiti]

I have no clue any more guys !! It's now -32 with a wind chill making it feel like -42 !!! Why do I live here ?

I'm feeling really sorry for the elk and other animals out there in this cold !!

I think the answer is.......yes.....no.....maybe !!!!!! LOL

Sorry JF I couldn't resist !!

[ElkNut1]

Anger, Fear, Excitement, etc. are all displays of emotion, do elk show signs of these things, yes. Do Elk carry it further & touch more on the intimate side of emotion, no, elk cannot reason matters out as humans can. Point is elk do show emotion & it can be seen & heard through their vocalization. During Rutting times there's as much Bull talk as there is cow talk going on. When you have bulls competing for the cows there will be challenges/intimidations. Younger/weaker bulls can become fearful of herd bulls therefore staying back out of harms way & try calling cows to them instead of hooking them out of the herd. Yes, bulls will try to out roar or bugle one another at these times to represent dominance & strength so cows can consider them as breeders, this is especially noticed when you have two herd bulls with cows a safe distance apart. Then you have the satellites who have the same urges & desires as the herd bulls do for the cows, these bulls as well as the herd bulls will vocalize to each gender. True, it's all about the cows, this is what breeding times is all about! (grin) Call it Aggressiveness or Emotion, doesn't matter, all I know is it's an exciting time to be out there! (grin)

ElkNut1

[>>>---WW---->]

Good post Paul. And another BOOO HISS here also. John, I sometimes wonder if you aren't trying to over think things. But that is OK! That's how we learn.

[JohnFitzgerald]

I have no problem with people disagreeing with me. Bring on all the boo's and hisses. I'm wearing my big boy pants today!

Being an overthinker is a compliment to me because underthinking things leads to generalization and misconceptions. I will always continue to expand, explore, and propose new idea's. Being a follower is just not in my nature!

Yes...no....maybe, guess I would rather have others answer for themselves. What makes me the expert, not a dang thing.

Personally, I wish more rookies would chime in with their thoughts and give us their idea's and interpretations. Maybe we could clear up a lot of these "Why wouldn't the bull come in" problems.

Just my 2-cents and worth nothing more

[Swede]

John, you are right on to pursue these questions. It is obvious you are thinking deeply about the matter and that most of us have not mastered this situation. I have observations and opinions, but I recognize they have very real limits. I am glad you asked. I posted earlier, probably on a different thread, how together we have a lot more information and insight. Here is a case in point. A lot of folks can benefit from this thread.

John, I enjoy reading your 2 cents worth. Let me share mine here.
Learning to call elk by reading whatever, including these posts and watching videos etc, is like learning to drive a car by studying an instruction manual. The manual is a great resource to assist you, and a place to go back to help you better master the situation, but nothing can replace experience. Experience will help you understand the manual, and experience will help you apply what you read or watch to fit your hunting situation.

I agree: Keep the questions and observations coming. I do not know who else benefits from them, but I find these questions come from real hunting situations where I too have struggled.

[ORelksniper]

All good questions and answers but the bottom line is...they just leave me confused. Having a visual on the elk you're talking to is more likely to give the answers to the elk speak questions. The elk fight video thread is a good example. Even with the visual queues we can't agree on what we hear. Without a visual it's mostly educated guesses and speculation IMO.

Where I hunt, the elk are not very vocal and would rather run than fight. Makes it pretty hard to figure out if a scream is directed at cows or another bull since I'm the only one making the noise. Next year I'm channeling my inner Barry. Bringing out the big guns.

[ctdad]

I have listened to "sounds of the elk" by elknut probably 20 times or more. To my ear, some of the sounds for two different calls sound the same to me. I'm not saying elknut doesn't know what sounds are what. I'm saying that I hear one sound described two different ways. I assume that there are subtle differences with those sounds that I'm not picking up on. I've only been listening to live elk and elknut CD's for a few years. Some of you guys have been doing this longer than I've been alive. Maybe I'll get there. Very subtle differences in elk noises are probably easier for elk to interpret than for me.

The other thing I've noticed is that elk noises are far from textbook in the field. I think some of that is due to the fact that elk are making noises based on instincts, not based on studying elk language and getting proper grammar education. Basically, elk don't always read the book (the playbook in this case).

[ElkNut1]

Good stuff guys! Lots of food for thought & it's entertaining at the same time! (grin) Understanding elk sounds is an "art" -- It takes many years of calling in & hearing 100's of bulls under a variety of situations & conditions. This is how ones can have a better understanding & be able to break down what they are hearing, doesn't matter if you can see the elk or not! It's like talking with someone in another part of your house, you do not have to see them in order to know the message they are conveying. Understanding elk language is no different, you are basically learning a new language, nothing you really knew or understood beforehand!

I can identify a Spanish, Italian or Chinese speaking individual & say yes this is what I'm hearing but I have no idea what they're saying. Same goes with elk, most hear them & say yep, that's elk I'm hearing. Understanding what you are hearing requires an education of the language, simple as that. The more time you put into it the better & faster you will become in breaking it down for the most part. It is not necessary or even reasonable to think you will know everything but you can understand 95% of it & that's huge for us as elk hunters & not so good for the elk ! (grin)

When listening to an elk vocalize pay close attention to any additional sounds he or she is making, this will help you to put the pieces of the puzzle together as well as paying close attention to what the elk did next! We then need to find a common ground where we see a pattern when specific sounds & tones are used, this tid bit will help a lot to further your education. You will start seeing the differences between, Glunks, Grunts, Chuckles, Nervous Grunts, Pants, Challenges, Advertising, Location, Mews, Whines, Separated, Estrus Buzz, etc. Not only the difference's in these sounds but when & where they are used. A hunter does not need to know how to make all these sounds to be successful but understanding them can go a long way towards his success. You will start to see where a specific sound or sounds can be most effective in any encounter you may be in. You will see how to be creative & have elk come your way under the quietest conditions when elk haven't vocalized for days at a time.

So many times hunters have called elk in with some basic cow sounds or classic bugles & really have no idea how they did it. Problem is they now use the same calling sequence on every elk with little success & cannot understand why it's not having results as before! Heck, if it were that simple everyone would kill elk every year! (grin)

ElkNut1

[ElkNut1]

ctdad, yes elk sounds & especially bugles can sound similar to the untrained ear. Intensity, emotion & urgency are all traits that a hunter evaluates as a bugle is heard, the more the hunter hears these sounds the better he will be at interpreting what he's hearing. You must also take into consideration of a bulls age that is making this sound, they are different. Bugles have different meanings, elk can hear it & understand them in a heartbeat.

Can you name 2 sounds that are confusing you on the CD?

ElkNut1

[cnelk]

For those that have studied a foreign language, you know that to be fluent you must use it and live it.
I think many times we as hunters way over think the real necessities of calling elk. We don’t live with the elk, we only ‘use’ their language for about a month out of the year.
Am I a great caller? No. I won’t win any calling contests. I only use 2-3 elk sounds. But I do know when to call and what to say with those 2-3 sounds.
One very important item for success in calling elk is that YOU MUST BE NEAR ELK!!!
I don’t care how good of a caller you are but it’s going to be a long day if there aren't any elk in your hunting area.

My advice would be, learn the basics of calling. Then learn your hunting area and elk habits like the back of your hand, not just the basics.

[Swede]

How much calling are the bulls doing in your hunting area? Where Sniper and I hunt it is only about 10% of what is was 20 years ago. Blowing your trumpet in a place like we hunt will result in the kind of frustration Sniper has experienced. Calling can still work, but it has become a low percentage way of pursuing elk. People driving down the nearby highway can see 700-800 elk on an adjacent ranch. This is a result of educated elk leaving public lands for the security of a "No Trespassing" sign. Those elk gather up on the ranch right after the start of archery season every year now. Only a few wander off in search of an available cow. Sniper, if you can call one of those bulls off the ranch, come see me in camp. I will help you get the quarters back to your truck.

[ORelksniper]

Swede, I've been studying on it and all the while our elk just keep on taunting me. The obvious solution is to give them something they've not heard before. Barry White, the master of love, is coming to the rescue. Thanks elkmtngear for the great idea.

Sorry 'bout the diversion from the original intent of the thread. I couldn't resist.

It is frustrating, though, for someone who loves to call elk and has had good success in the past, to not be able to figure out what will turn on these particular elk. You guys just keep throwing ideas out there and eventually I'll discover the "secret". Then Swede and I are gonna have some fun...and backstraps.

[Swede]

Sniper: You and I could blow on our elk bugles and cow calls, around the perimeter of the ranch and other territory near there, until we had hemorrhoids that stuck out like the bubble my granddaughter can put on a wad of gum, and we would have no more elk coming off the ranch than she gets. There is a time and a place for everything. For us, in the area we hunt, it is best to stick with tree stand hunting for the first 30 days of the elk season. In my not so humble opinion anyway.

[ORelksniper]

Swede, I think you are probably right...and I don't need hemmorroids. I have hunted other pressured areas in the past though, and been able to call in elk. For the sake of my sanity I would really like to figure out why this area is sooo different. Then, maybe, I could rest my brain for awhile.

[Swede]

Sniper: I am convinced that part of the problem for our area is the heavy use by the cattle. They come on shortly before the archery season begins. BTW, how did the residual grass look by the time the cattle left the allotment where you are hunting?

[ORelksniper]

The grass was eaten down pretty short in most spots but overall still good feed available for the elk.

[ElkNut1]

Yes, calling elk & its effectiveness towards them is much tougher to accomplish on heavily hunted public lands. If I were to hunt such areas & I have I do much more ambushing in "destination spots" - In other words I become more focused on travel routes, water sources of all kinds, escape routes, bedding & feeding areas. These are my main focus throughout the month of Sept. It doesn't mean I will not call but I am much more selective in sounds used & volume used. When sounds are my choice I know I have to stay a minimum of an hour in one area when elk are fairly quiet & allow things to develop, meaning interested elk can slip in silently at anytime out of curiosity. On the few days that month when rutting picks up I need to be there, this is when I can expand on various methods & techniques to take advantage of the vocal rutting times. Being a versatile hunter here can up ones odds!


Brad, yes there are times when just 2-3 sounds is all that's needed in ones style of elk hunting. Issues that arise there is that all hunters are not after the same results! Newer hunters are generally after any elk, as hunters get a few animals under their belts they wish to expand their sounds of use & understanding of elk themselves & go after more mature bulls. So what you have is a variety of wants & desires which can be different from one hunter to the next.

Message boards as this one are very similar to an audience attending a Seminar, I've given many Seminars over the years & I find the audiences are generally divided as to their style of elk hunting & expectations, again hunters vary in thought & what they expect to learn & actually use in the field. Some hunters are satisfied with a few sounds & others want to know more. So when sharing info on Forums as this or at Seminars you have a wide range of info that needs to be covered so all will find info shared interesting & usable. Just look how many here want to know more about "Elk Talk" they're not satisfied any longer with just a few mews & classic bugling they want to take the next step & increase their knowledge in hopes of it making them a better elk hunter & caller of elk when the occasion arises.

I know for myself I enjoy using quite a few sounds in varying techniques that are necessary to attract certain bulls, there is no one sound that works for all elk encounters, a hunter must know when & how to adapt to each situation. There are times during ones hunt that they may not hear a single bugle in their 5-7 day hunt, what are they to do, give up? (grin) Of course not. They need to adjust their thinking & tailor their calling or ambushing to fit each day individually & create opportunities of success. It's done every year by new & older hunters alike. Hunting pressured elk & hunting non-pressured elk are two totally different animals, knowing how to adapt to each is important during ones hunt.

ElkNut1

[Swede]

Paul: You make some very good points here. As you point out much depends on the area and the elk you hunt. I think it would be great to hunt unpressured elk again. You are correct that patience has to be exercised when trying to call in el,k that have frequently discovered it was a hunter, when they heard what they believed was an elk.

Sniper: I don't understand your last post. If the cattle ate the grass down, what did they leave for the elk? Elk have a little more variety in their diet, but eating all of the grass there will leave little nutritious forage for them, so I believe that is in part why they are on the ranch. The grass on the ranch, in the sub-irrigated fields and meadows, is in much better condition.

[ORelksniper]

Swede, I re-read my last grassy post. No wonder you're confused. Let me try to clarify. The cattle do eat the grass down, sometimes even to the dirt. The upside is, the cattle tend to stay in specific areas year after year. They're not very ambitious so they stay closer to the roads for food and water. I hunt where the cattle aren't. For instance, the north slope of "Joe" is nicely timbered, thick brush in certain spots, and several secluded waterholes. No cattle and plenty of feed for the elk. This is just one example of the many places I hunt.

[Swede]

Sniper: Gotcha. I scouted your Joe area years ago. It looked great in the summer with a lot of good sign. I would assume it holds a few elk while you are in the area, but I suspect most of those that summer there are on the ranch by the time you arrive. It is similar to the area I hunt. The problem is that it is too small of an area to hold many elk when all the surrounding area has been eaten to the dirt. It is kinda like the area I hunt, and when you throw in some bow hunters the elk become scarce.

[ORelksniper]

You are right, my friend. Our areas hold elk but the ranch holds more. Maybe we should tag along with JF and offer to carry out his elk in exchange for...

[ORG]

id do the same thing john. -smile-