The frontal shot...

[cnelk]

The elk is not over 20yds away.
Are you comfortable enough to take the frontal shot?
It doesnt matter the size of the rack

Do you take the shot?

Place your 'X'

[cnelk]

If you gotta shoot big bulls, here is frontal shot for you....
Not over 20yds

Place your 'X' if youre comfortable

[JJ Overkill]

I really don't think I would ever take this shot, my x's are pure guesses on where to aim. ive never really been told where the perfect spot to aim is on a frontal.

[Swede]

X marks the spot. Yes, I'm shootin.

[Bowhunter]

I would shoot both. I like jerinmn's first X placement. I think I might shoot 1.5-2 inches 4 oclock of his second X.

[otcWill]

The only frontals I've taken on big game have resulted in some or most of my quickest kills. These are slam dunks inside 20!

[ElkNut1]

100% all over that bad boy, those are great frontal shot angles there, no question in my mind if presented with the shot!

ElkNut1

[cnelk]

Here is a pic of the damage that happens inside of an elk due to a frontal shot...




Here is another elk that didnt go 20yds

[BrentLaBere]

Thanks for those pics cnelk. So, are you guys saying roughly 1/3 up the front of the chest?

[WapitiTalk1]

Seems like a good time to post this article up again. It's a very good article in OL by Aron Snyder reference frontal shots (with red dots showing recommended shot placement). I like what Troy from Glacier Country Calls calls the placement in an earlier thread/post here on the Elknut forum. He calls it the "shirt pocket" on the elk. Good way to think of the shot.

http://www.outdoorlife.com/photos/galle ... -placement

[WapitiTalk1]

Here is a pic of the damage that happens inside of an elk due to a frontal shot...

Hardly any need for gutting. Brutal! Thanks for sharing the pics.

[Indian Summer]

I've seen frontal shots with both bow and gun go terribly bad. I'm passing with high hopes that the bull will give me a better angle.

[ElkNut1]

There's a difference between frontal & quartering to you shots, those angles posted above at 20yds are a slam dunk for an experienced elk killer, if you are a novice with doubts then by all means pass!

ElkNut1

[Swede]

It is important to note in the pictures above the elk are not looking at you. If you are at full draw or can come to full draw, in some cover you have a huge advantage.

[Freebird134]

I'm still a pass. Too risky. Too many people that claim this is a great shot have also admitted screwing it up. It's not for me.

[Wapitibob]

I'm taking both of those shots.

[no limits]

any shot can be screwed up I practice year round so I have the confidence to take that shot all day long and other shots that some won't take

[Wapiti]

I usually hunt alone and as many of you know when calling elk they can come in on a string !! I have always shyed away from this shot but thanks to all you folks on here I am now educated on this shot. I would take this at 15 yards all day long and actually I am looking forward to my next encounter at close range !! There's gonna be a rack attack and a big bull on the ground !!

Thank you all for your knowledge !!

Trav

[JGH]

I had never taken this shot before, but, like cnelk, I had been convinced that it is a reasonable shot given a short distance to the animal.

So, when presented with a 20 yard frontal on a pronghorn last year, I took the shot. It was devastating.

[Trumkin the Dwarf]

For those of you who have taken this shot, how big is the pocket? Softball sized? Golf ball?

[Z Barebow]

TtD- I would say the area is 8" in diameter or so. It isn't a circle, taller than wide.

If you have killed deer, picture how ribcage looks when viewed from the front. Same composition on an elk, just slightly larger.

I am taking both of those shots. #1, he would have to stay in that position for a little while before I shoot though. If he drops his head, I am waiting. #2, I'll let keep walking and shoot him at 10 yards!

I shot my 1st elk at 8 yards, frontal. He was stopped, eyeing me up. (Very close to #2) and I was already at full draw. I aimed for where the windpipe disappeared and the arrow came out of the hip. He through blood as he whirled away and watched him tip over.

[pointysticks]

No hesitation. Close proximity. A calm elk. Arrow flies!

[lang]

Never done it, but thinking about it after all the posts. Would have taken a lot more shots over the last 15 years if I would have known it was an option. Broadside and quartering away were preached pretty heavy as I was learning. Can't count on both hand the number of times I've had these shots under ten yards and passed.

[Lefty]

Archery 0-15 yes,.. Those bulls dont look cautious, Im wait a few more steps if they are moving to me. Then at 10 or 8

Ive shot 2 rifle bulls with these front shots. ( a few deer and antelope also ) a bit lower and a bit to their leading edge; top of the heart and arterieds are going are gone. I would think an arrow would be devisting if it doesnt exit

[cnelk]

I hope that one person that has not taken a frontal shot opportunity this year takes one...
That would make my day to increase anyone's shot options

[Trophyhill]

I hope that one person that has not taken a frontal shot opportunity this year takes one...
That would make my day to increase anyone's shot options

And makes it or you may become the scapegoat

[easeup]

I hope I get that opportunity.

It has never even come close to happening to me yet. It sure seems to be a better shot than a quarter to.

[BarW]

Never taken a frontal shot on any animal. What vitals are y'all aiming for or hitting with this shot? Just curious

[pointysticks]

Never taken a frontal shot on any animal. What vitals are y'all aiming for or hitting with this shot? Just curious

Curt Wells did this shot on TV. He said you hit all of the vitals (paraphrasing) by putting it in the front. I've never done it.

[elkmtngear]

Never taken a frontal shot on any animal. What vitals are y'all aiming for or hitting with this shot? Just curious

On a perfectly dead on shot, it is actually possible to miss (go between) both lungs, but you will take out the great vessels above the heart, or the heart itself. Enough penetration gets liver as well. The collateral damage when the animal takes off is devastating.

It is a deadly shot if executed correctly.

This is a deer from front side and back...you can get the general idea

[cnelk]

Never taken a frontal shot on any animal. What vitals are y'all aiming for or hitting with this shot? Just curious

In the pic above with the bull quartered up, the 28in arrow completely penetrated the chest cavity.
The whole arrow was INSIDE the chest so all of the vitals were compromised.
Its hard to imagine what happens inside an elk with a 3 blade Muzzy and the whole arrow in there.


In the second pic above of the cow, below is a better pic of the exact location of the frontal shot

[ctdad]

Never taken a frontal shot on any animal. What vitals are y'all aiming for or hitting with this shot? Just curious

On a perfectly dead on shot, it is actually possible to miss (go between) both lungs, but you will take out the great vessels above the heart, or the heart itself. Enough penetration gets liver as well. The collateral damage when the animal takes off is devastating.

It is a deadly shot if executed correctly.

This is a deer from front side and back...you can get the general idea

Elkmtngear, have you actually seen a frontal shot miss both lungs by going between them? I find that hard to believe.

[elkmtngear]

Haven't seen it, I just said it was "possible". I wish I had a better picture of elk anatomy...the apices (top) portion of the lungs are the only thing that "comes together"... after that as you move down, the gap between the lungs gets wider and wider. The lungs "wrap around" the great vessels and other vital organs.

Sorry, I'm trained in cross-sectional (human) anatomy...so it is the nerd in me coming out.

[elkmtngear]

Elkmtngear, have you actually seen a frontal shot miss both lungs by going between them? I find that hard to believe.

I take that back...I HAVE seen it. My hunting partner's first bull was shot at 8 yds dead on. We picked up the blood trail 20 minutes after the shot, and he was pouring blood. He had gone sidehill/ uphill for just about 75 yds, and he was down but struggling to keep his head up when we approached him. We watched him die.

It was apparent he had walked slowly up the hill and went down from blood loss. The lungs were both intact, but the great vessels above the heart were trashed. Arrow was buried almost to the fletch.

That was about 18 years ago...I must be losing my long term memory

[ctdad]

How did you know the lungs were up?

[elkmtngear]

How did you know the lungs were up?

There were no marks or cuts on either lung, they were completely intact. I remember being very curious about what killed him when we gutted him...it was the damage to the great vessels. The heart was also untouched.

Even though this is a diagram of a human cross section, the basic layout is the same on elk. You can clearly see the "no man's land" in between lungs where the great vessels reside.

[wapitibowman]

I doubt anything will kill an animal faster than severing the great vessels off the heart and lungs. A human can hold their breath for greater than 60 seconds. You will bleed out in seconds if your aorta fails. People that have a AAA (Abdominal Aortic Aneurysm) - are gone in seconds. Too much blood in those huge vessels.

Wapitibowman

[JGH]

elkmtngear ... good picture.

It is tough to learn anatomy from the typical diagrams ... cross-sections are where it's at ... BUT ... I have yet to see a chest CT of an elk.

I don't doubt they exist, though. Or could.

Any veterinarians in teaching arenas out there? Doing a CT of an elk (or horse) with reconstructions would be real cool ... and if people had the technical ability to manipulate the images, I think we'd all learn a lot.

[ctdad]

Horse chest is too large to fit in traditional CT. They are able to get heads and distal limb in them though. Same problem with MRI. Significant limiting factor in diagnostics in that area. The same would be true of an adult elk I would assume.

I've necropsied many animal chests but to get to see them pre-mortem would be much more valuable info for me. When you open the chest and lose the negative pressure, there is no good way to know where the organs are exactly when that animal is standing and the lungs are inflated. While the idea that the mediastinum area could be large enough for a broadhead to pass through without hitting lungs is difficult for me to visualize, that is based on the fact that I've only ever seen that anatomy in a completely deflated chest. So I completely agree that a CT would be great.

[JGH]

I hope this photo comes through. It's a goat.

[JGH]

Well, it was a goat ... I think it'd be tough to hit just mediastinum, but we're really talking about angels dancing on the heads of pins here.

[JGH]

Idea: Could we take an elk through a TSA checkpoint at a major airport? Should be able to see detailed anatomy there!

Bottom line to all this is there is very little that is not Vital with a capital "V" in the front end of the chest ... the challenge is to get past bone, and to get on the correct side of bone (i.e. the inside of the rib cage, not the outside).

[elkmtngear]

Bottom line to all this is there is very little that is not Vital with a capital "V" in the front end of the chest ... the challenge is to get past bone, and to get on the correct side of bone (i.e. the inside of the rib cage, not the outside).

Yes! I've seen both outcomes. One positive thing about the frontal shot...if you miss and smack solid bone, penetration will most likely be minimal.

Chances are the bull will live to breed many more cows over the years.

[Da White Shoe]

I can't help but wonder what would happen when someone, for whatever reason... misses 2 inches to one side.

I admit, I would be guessing, but I would think that in some cases he would get one lung, the liver, the diaphragm...
and the arrow would be stopped in the paunch with no exit wound.

I would think that an elk could be on his feet for 45 minutes with that hit.

"Fair well and adu to you fair Spanish ladies..."

[BarW]

This good useful info fellas, I just never considered a frontal shot an option.

[>>>---WW---->]

For those of you who have taken this shot, how big is the pocket? Softball sized? Golf ball?

I took a picture of a deer skeleton several years back. Sorry I lost it when my last computer took the big nose dive. But in that picture I placed a pop can in the so called pocket. It just barely fit. The rib cage tapers in very tightly near the front of the chest cavity and you would be surprised just how high the brisket bone comes up.

I had one person accuse me of using a fawn skeleton for the picture. But I assure you it was an adult deer. Elk of course are larger animals and that pocket may be larger, but not all that big. And chances are you will slice a rib on a frontal shot. That is possible and not all that big of a deal.

I have had slightly heated discussions with my good friend Bill Allard about the frontal shot. Many of you may know Bill as (BB). Bill reall likes the frontal and always tells how deadly the shot is. That I will agree with. But there is a catch.

Back when I was guiding I have seen hunters get shook up at the sight of an elk up close. One hyper ventalated so badly that I thought I was going to have to do CPR on him. Another one was so shook that his legs were trembling so badly that his knees were actually knocking together. I'm not making this up! Just trying to show you the extrems of what some guys go through.

So what I'm driving at is, unless you have nerves of steel and ice in your veins, the frontal shot may not be wise for you. For those of you that feel like you can stand there calmly with an elk that is face on with you, slobbering, pissed off at 8-10 yards, go for it. Other wise, pass on the shot. And remember, this is a close range, heavy bow shot. You 40-50 yard guys shouldn't even think about it.

But when that bull is up close and personal, it doesn't matter if you take the shot of not because you have just gone through the ultimate exciting thing that elk hunting has to offer.

[elkmtngear]

Bill...awesome post!!

I have always imagined the "pocket" to be about the size of a grapefruit on elk at best.

[twinkieman]

This is exactly why I started hunting with partners, and I wouldn't change that at all. That being said, I have passed up so many bulls as a solitary hunter because I would not take this shot. I am an accomplished archer, and ability to place the arrow in the correct spot was not the problem. Exactly where to place the arrow was the limiting factor. I to had read articles on the subject, but to now have a visual, and so many successful hunters voicing the opinion on this forum I will be taking this shot(maybe this year). Thanks to all for their input.

[SOIL Hunter]

Since I have taken the same shot on a whitetail doe at 70 yards with a shotgun slug, then yes bull or cow at 30 yards or less with bow.

That being said, I have to have complete confidence in any shot before I release. I let off on an huge 10 point whitetail last fall with a 17 yard broadside shot. I couldn't get "comfortable" with my anchor and passed up the shot.

[Swede]

WW: That was a great description of the frontal shot situation. I think I would have enjoyed the debate you had with BB on the subject. I suspect a lot of us, thinking about taking such a shot, would have benefited from it. I always thought 20 yards was a reasonable distance, but I know how fast an elk can react and am having my doubts now, unless somehow the bull is looking away. The critters always know where I am, and are looking straight at me, with their eyes locked onto mine.

[cnelk]

From what I am seeing of the 'Cold Shot' results, I believe most can easily make that shot at 20yds

[easeup]

just a little more on this if I may......( remember, I haven't ever done or seen a frontal)

of course we have acknowledged the real importance of shot placement and angle of the frontal. However, another subtlety that is not definitively addressed above is penetration of the arrow properly placed in a frontal elk shot. I do not discount the observations here about this from those who posted above. I only add that I have seen two hunting vids where the guy took a frontal on a bull and the shots looked good to me but the arrows were at best not 1/2 in; if that. Now they showed a dead elk after the fact with hero handshakes. OK. I guess. For some of our new guys who just haven't done it yet, there is a whole 'nother level of big and tough when it comes to elk versus comparing arrow penetration with a deer, or at least your typical WT deer. so maybe I am to just guilty of being too conservative when it comes to worry about sufficient arrow depth on an elk shot.
Maybe because of my broadside elk kills, only one was a pass thru.
Again, thanks for the observations everyone on the frontals. my eyes and ears are open to more.

[cnelk]

Here is a link to a short video I took right after we took the above cow...
These guys are brothers and are killings machines.

You can see how much fun we have in the elk woods...


http://s207.photobucket.com/user/cnelk/ ... d.mp4.html

[Huntography]

Shoot em!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

[Buglemaster]

Here's my feed on the subject. I've taken the shot with a lot of disappointment following that shot. But is was completely my fault for things not working out as planned. The bull was at 18 yds & just barely quartering to me. I tried to hug the shoulder more than I should have & ended up getting nearly no penetration at all ( in 2 jumps the arrow flew off minus the broad head). I must have hit that heavy bone in the shoulder & it stopped it cold.the only bright side was we watched him pushing cows a couple days later with only a slight limp & screaming his head off at his rivals. I will take that shot again, but you MUST know the anatomy! The "spot" is roughly the size of a softball or mabe slightly larger from the elk I have investigated. I was pretty sick until I saw him up & going. That feeling takes a lot of the enjoyment out of a guy.

[fm]

If i am on the ground at the same level as the elk my arrow is flying. If I am elevated at all I will wait. Last fall I shot a whitetail doe at 18 yards from a low treestand with a frontal shot she only went 30 yards but never bled a drop because of the higher enter hole. The arrow stopped in the bone of the hind quarter,it was a nasty gut job. Good thing on a elk is the gutless methed.

[slim9300]

100% all over that bad boy, those are great frontal shot angles there, no question in my mind if presented with the shot!

ElkNut1

Yep. Inside of 20 yards and both bulls should be dead quickly.

[Wapitibob]

this is a goat, but you get the idea.

[westaner]

Great pic wapitibob!
I made a few videos for this frontal shot topic , my opinion on aiming may change with more study .
You can find them on YouTube ,search for " elk anatomy front" and "yellowstone elk shoulder/front anatomy"
Hopfully a moderator can put up the link

[twinkieman]

Re: The frontal shot...

Post by Theelkhunter » 07 27, 2013

I stuck a nice bull last year in the chest. The arrow was placed almost exactly where Jerimn put his X on his second pic. After 8 hours of tracking, we lost every bit of sign of him. The shot was taken at 9-10 yards. I was also shooting slightly downhill. I just found out a few weeks ago that the bull was found a few days later. The bull was a 300-315 which was an excellent bull for the area I hunt. I am now leary of taking the shot again. Not trying to tell people not to take the shot, just sharing my experience.

Why do you believe this animal was lost? Really appreciate your input.

[slim9300]

Great pic wapitibob!
I made a few videos for this frontal shot topic , my opinion on aiming may change with more study .
You can find them on YouTube ,search for " elk anatomy front" and "yellowstone elk shoulder/front anatomy"
Hopfully a moderator can put up the link

Great job on that video.

[Triplebhunters]

Awesome info thanks

[twinkieman]

I went back a few days ago, from when this subject came up in June. So much good info about this subject.

[elkmtngear]

Nice job on that video, westaner

[WapitiTalk1]

Great pic wapitibob! I made a few videos for this frontal shot topic , my opinion on aiming may change with more study. You can find them on YouTube ,search for " elk anatomy front" and "yellowstone elk shoulder/front anatomy". Hopfully a moderator can put up the link:

Here's your VIDs westander. Thanks for taking the time to make them.

[twinkieman]

Thanks for the videos

[westaner]

Had a tour this morning in the park and spotted all three of the big bulls at gibbon medows, I was happy to see they survived the wolf pack that was camped out there 3 days ago! I got video of one wolf leading a grizzly away from something , very odd behavor.
All summer I've been getting video of afew dozen bulls antler growth , some once a week! Hopefully I'll get Video when they loose their velvet.

[twinkieman]

Curious as to how many of you who WOULD NOT have taken a frontal, has this thread and info on it changed your minds, would you take a frontal now?

[Indian Summer]

Got a call from a friend yesterday so I dug this thread up. I've heard people make a case against mechanical brodheads by saying even if the chance of failure is only slightly higher than other heads we owe it to the animal to use the better option.

I'd say doing everything we can to lessen the chances of unrecovered game should be considered.

The other day he was guiding a guy and called in a nice bull around 320 inches. The bull was coming straight in. Obviously things can change in a flash but before waiting to see what the bull was going to do the guy slammed an arrow right into it's chest at around 35 yards. Said it buried pretty good too but they never found the bull. Will knows all too well how to look for wounded game.

They got back to camp only to find another hunter with a very similar story: Frontal shot, looked good, no recovery.

I have my share of stories just like those. How many is too many? I base my opinions on actual experiences and I'm still saying there is more chance of not recovering frontal shot elk than there is of a mechanical broadhead failing. Those shots are so marginal that I'll never take or suggest that to anyone. To each his own I suppose but it makes you sick to see bulls like that hit hard and deep and run off forever. I recall Broken Arrow's account of his reaction when he thought his elk ran off wounded "I just started running all over the hillside frantic to see her hoping she was just laying out in the open to find. I stopped myself Feeling sick to my stomach thought " YOU really messed up buddy you wounded her!!!! I hate you" Think about that for a second people. What a terrible feeling. My buddy Will was very upset. I for one will pass on putting myself in that position whenever possible. To me shot angle is a way bigger factor than what type of broadhead you shoot.

To those who like frontal shots I guess we can agree to disagree on this one but I'd hope at least one person will read this post and decide to also pass on anything but broadside or quartering away shots.

[JohnFitzgerald]

To those who like frontal shots I guess we can agree to disagree on this one but I'd hope at least one person will read this post and decide to also pass on anything but broadside or quartering away shots.

Thanks Joe.

[cnelk]

The frontal shot - it's not for everyone

Tree stand elk - it's not for everyone

Rifle elk - it's not for everyone

Bowhunting elk - it's not for everyone

Run & gun elk hunting - it's not for everyone

Solo Elk hunting - it's not for everyone

Bivy elk hunting - it's not for everyone

Guided elk hunting- it's not for everyone

DIY elk hunting - it's not for everyone

Traditional bows - it's not for everyone

Compound bows - it's not for everyone

It's up to the individual hunter to choose whats right for themselves

[Indian Summer]

Agreed. All we can do is pass on our experiences and let people make their own decisions.

[dtrkyman]

Huge thread on bowsite about this.

[BRazz]

To those who like frontal shots I guess we can agree to disagree on this one but I'd hope at least one person will read this post and decide to also pass on anything but broadside or quartering away shots.

Thanks Indian Summer. I'm one who has passed on frontal shot opportunities in the past, but did lots of reading about it this off-season and was prepared to take the shot if it presented itself. After reading back through your post, I find myself reconsidering! I secretly hope that I just have one broadside at 20 yards so I don't have to make any difficult decisions. Wounding such a magnificent critter is a pretty horrible feeling...

[Indian Summer]

I've been lucky. I've never had to make that decision. I've never been presented with a head on shot.

My brothers very first shot opportunity was at a nice 6 point bull.... head on. The arrow buried all the way to the fletchings. 3 of us came up empty. I've been afraid of those shots since that day. Since then I've heard many more including the two just the other day.

Here's a good one while you have me thinking: Two clients standing on a rock outcrop on one end of a long narrow meadow... with rifles. Both 30-.06s. (this would never happen to me....) 6 bulls step out of the timber on the other end at about 175 yards. They both take aim and shoot. One bull goes down and the rest do a 180 and take off back into the timber and down over a hill. Blood everywhere. Oh yeah... there's snow. They come back to camp which is only about 500 yards and tell us what happened. We walked over after a 30 minute wait and followed up the blood trail. I got to the point where I said well, it's fairly late & we're close to camp so let's go eat dinner, give it a couple hours and come back. We returned, continued on the trail coming upon 1 place where he had bedded... but then the thing I hate to see: The trail turned uphill. Mortally wounded animals rarely turn uphill. It was time to back off for the night.

The next morning we are at it bright and early. No fresh snow which had me worried all night. The hunters by the way were from Massachusetts. Really really nice guys. They felt bad as well and off we went. The bull was all downhill during the night. After about 2 hours and several beds we were pretty low. I knew the area well & it was about to drop off steeper than steep and into a pixie stix blowdown nightmare. But as we walked toward the edge yikes! He jumped up out of his bed. He had stopped in a place where he could see above and easily bail over that ledge. But the hunter was ready and he dropped it pretty quick.

Interestingly it slid all the way to the lip of the edge. On the way there was a HUGE stump. We all thought it was going to stop the bull. It turned out to be really decayed and soggy and it blew up like we stuck dynamite in it. Those hunters about freaked out. It was a heck of a sight. The stump & their reaction.

OK to the point: The bull would likely have died but it was going to take awhile. The bullet had managed to slip inside the right front shoulder but outside the chest cavity. In the armpit. He was in really bad shape from the shock, muscle damage and bleeding but his shoulder and leg weren't broken and no damage to the lungs or heart. I felt sorry for the old boy going out like that. But at least we killed him instead of a longer more agonizing death.

Like I said... I base my idea on things I've seen first hand. I think an arrow would have had the exact same results only there is no chance we would have ever found him without snow.

In defense of those who do take frontal shots hey... we can miss from those perfect angles too right so it could be said that if you hit the mark it would be consistently fatal. You can take a shot from the rear and kill animals every time too as long as you sever the femoral artery. But bulls are built to withstand some battles and heavy up front. Thicker hide and I just don't like shoulder bones and breast bone in front of the lungs. And a neck shot with a bow is also a no no. Side note: I never said I was William Tell either. ha ha Just the average Joe. Wounded elk.... not for me.

[navet]

Many years ago, while white tailed deer hunting here in Texas, I took the opportunity to shoot a buck from the front. I shoot a 30.06 with hand loaded bullets made especially for deer by a Texas Parks and wildlife biologist who researched the best loads used on deer, and this load was the winner. So I shoot this deer and he drops like a hammer.... I collect my stuff and as I exit the blind he jumps up and jumps over a fence. . I have hunted for 25 years by this point and NEVER had a deer get back up after going down. So I track this deer for several hours that night and again the next morning and no dice. I was sick...I have never wounded anything and not found it.....ever.... I return the the lease 1 week later and look again for the deer....... I found him.... still alive but suffering still able to move short distances at a time. I tracked him for several hours and finally was able to end his,and my, misery. I decide to autopsy this deer(I and a veterinarian). The bullet placement was just off midline(center) to the left. It skipped of the first rib(at the thoracic inlet) tracked along the rib cage under the shoulder blade, broke several ribs, and exited just behind the last rib. It had paralyzed the front leg(destroyed all the nerves going to it). In short I missed the whole chest. The size of the thoracic inlet, which is where the esophagus and trachea and vessels enter the chest is about 3inches by 3 inches. If I had indeed hit this area he would have died almost instantly...but i did not was unlucky the bullet ricochet of the first rib instead of penetrating it and the chest cavity. His rack hangs in my barn as a reminder to never take a shot like that again.

[>>>---WW---->]

navet: I'm curious as to how the bullet traveled along the full length of the rib cage without penetrating the diaphragm muscle which would have ceased the animals ability to breathe. Did your vet friend have an explaination for that? I'm not doubting your word, just looking for a reason. The only thing I can think of for a bullet to travel the full length of the rib cage without causing suffocation would be for it to travel just under the skin on the outside the ribs. Is that the case?

[cnelk]

I thought my my last post would be my final one on this thread, but it wont be.

I am using a quote from a different forum, with the same topic.
I do believe it is of great value...

"There is no holy grail of effective shot angles"

[navet]

navet: I'm curious as to how the bullet traveled along the full length of the rib cage without penetrating the diaphragm muscle which would have ceased the animals ability to breathe. Did your vet friend have an explaination for that? I'm not doubting your word, just looking for a reason. The only thing I can think of for a bullet to travel the full length of the rib cage without causing suffocation would be for it to travel just under the skin on the outside the ribs. Is that the case?

Correct under the skin.
I am the veterinarian and did the autopsy myself.
A hole in the diaphragm will not always cause death. The diaphragm is composed of 3 muscles not all of which are required to be functional. The thorax is separated into halves by a membrane that would allow one side of the lungs to deflate(has the bullet/arrow hole in it) while the other side of the chest and lung would function normally. I have seen numerous animals with ruptured diaphragms,hit by cars, that live without corrective surgery.
Sorry for the long answer. I am not trying to belabor the point. I know there is no clear cut right or wrong...... just putting in my 2 cents.

[JGH]

WW ... I read navet's thoughts to be that the bullet traveled outside of the chest cavity ... taking out the nerves to the "arm" (the brachial plexus) ... and exiting the skin behind the last rib.

This is the "worst case" with the frontal shot ... a non-vital area that nonetheless "kills" the animal slowly, but not before allowing escape. It is the "gutshot" of the frontal shot, in short.

As for "Can an animal survive with a hole in the diaphragm?" ... sure ... lots of people have "holes" that develop through disease or degeneration over time. It would take a pretty large tear to make the diaphragm "not work" ... it's amazing what animals and even us humans can survive, but overall, the size of the trauma is proportional to the chance of catastrophic death.

[>>>---WW---->]

Thanks John

[Trophyhill]

I've considered in the past whether to take a frontal or not. This year I killed my bull on a hard quartering to frontal at 30 yards. I watched the arrow completely disappear thru his chest cavity and watched him fall 20 yards later and he expired in seconds! I love my set up!