Stepping on some toes

[cnelk]

We have all done it. We will all do it again.

I have been reading many posts over the past few months about being aggressive, aggressive calling, aggressive terrain, being successful, and not taking shots.

Im probably going to step on a few toes, but I guess its time...

Im surprised how people state they are aggressive in calling elk and chasing elk, but not aggressive is taking certain shots.
Then wonder why they arent more successful

Sure there are shots that TABOO, but geez, we are talking mostly archery hunting at close range.

Are you guys not practicing?
Do you need some ice in your veins?

You cant wait for the most perfect shot, because its prob not going to happen. If it does, you better be shooting.

An arrow can be placed in some pretty tight places. You just need to know those places and get the arrow in there.

I dont take unethical shots, I take shots I know I can make to make a quick humane kill.

Ok... Im ready for the heat

[Swede]

No heat here. I agree. I think a part of the problem is not seeing the path of the arrow before we shoot. We have to know where it will travel in many cases or we end up trying to make excuses. Knowing the path of the arrow takes time and practice in the kinds of conditions we will encounter when we are out on the hunt. I sometimes think we major in minors here. I take every question about what is the right equipment and every how to question as serious by someone who needs to know, and I am not discouraging any of these, but which arrow, backpack or diaphragm we use pales in insignificance to being able to make the shot and do it quick or now.

[ferris bugler]

I think you make a good point in part, but as I look at your shot placement in in the third picture of X Marks the Spot Series 2 I think there is a good chance that that shot would only partially catch one lung and you would spend a lot of time trying to bloodtrail, and potentially lose that elk. So whether or not you practiced, to me that would be a poor decision.

[Ridgernr]

While in camp we have a small target range setup, pop cans, water bottles for our chicken arrows and then our broadhead target.
We will shoot thru the trees and branches to stay sharp about our arrow flight. It helps to focus thru the shot and gain confidence.

[JohnFitzgerald]

I'll bring you the heat!

I commend those who pass on shots....even ethical ones. I'm not one to wait for the absolute perfect shot. But if I have a doubt, I'll pass and wait for a better one. Just a personal choice.

Passing means more elk for others!

[cnelk]

ferris bugler
I have made that shot more than once and seen it taken with dire effects on elk each and every time.
The arrow slips into between the 1st rib and shoulder, cuts the jugular and disappears. Elk dies within sight.
If anything, my 'X' should be an inch, maybe 2 to the right.
But once again, that tennis ball size spot is still hit

I have even shot elk in the head with an arrow at 15ft from a tree stand as that was the best shot offered.
Folded in their tracks
Quick and humane

[bnsafe]

I just don't want to lose an animal, I would rather pass an wait. to me there is a difference between hunting aggressively and taking shots I will regret. im a old whitetail hunter and there are certain rules I have and have taught my kids, such as only shoot at a broadside or quartering away animal. heck my daughter had a huge antelope walk by her blind at 3 feet, yes feet, she was at full draw and let him walk by, when I ask why she said "dad you told me to never shoot at a animal walking". obviously she made a bad decision, and I couldn't have been more proud.

[cnelk]

bnsafe
Im proud of your daughter too!
My kids have done the same thing.

I have also passed on shots. But in hindsight now, I know now that shots presented are more deadly because I have done my homework.

Once again, its recognizing and experience

[LckyTylr]

I wish I hadn't seen this.

I do, MOST ASSUREDLY, respect your posts and your opinions. I have learned a lot from you and I look forward to your future posts, but I think this one is promoting a subconscious recklessness among those of us who haven't yet scored on an elk . . . but are aching for their first.

At the end of the day, it's all a personal judgement call at that moment, shoot or pass. I just hope we don't all get so anxious that we make poor decisions.

Let's hope this doesn't alienate me.

Shooting an elk in the head with archery. I have no argument that it's not totally lethal and very quick . . . but what about all of the variables that haven't been tested and written about for years and years (leading one to believe that it's a good shot to take)? Just seems like a wild-a$$ idea to pull out of the blue and try. We have all heard about failed head shots with long guns . . . maybe poor marksmanship, maybe the animal moved at the last second . . . who knows . . . but a bullet at speed is a better percentage kill than an arrow. At least with a bullet there's a chance for shock value (turn brain to soup or at least stun them long enough for a follow up). A poorly placed arrow . . . lost elk.

I understand your original post about encouraging individuals to practice and take shots that they are comfortable with. But just the post itself seems to add a little pressure to someone who may have been struggling to kill their first elk for several seasons.

From the standpoint of just such a person, I know how frustrating it is to feel like I'm doing everything right . . . but just can't get the cat in the bag. I have all of the right equipment, I have (I feel) enough knowledge to get it done, I have a good hunting location, I have the physical conditioning, and I have the perseverance . . . and yet it still hasn't happened. I had a chance last year and a chance the year before . . . but the shot opportunities were not what I'm comfortable with. Believe me, I had practiced a LOT . . . and I'm NOT a new archery hunter (Lots of whitetails), but the shot just wasn't there. I had three 5-points or bigger pass me at a slow trot through the timber at 30 yards. I mewed, I barked, I whistled, I shouted . . . but they wouldn't stop. I WANTED a shot SOOOOOO BAD!!! I'm a proficient archery, yet I knew that it wasn't an ethical shot, so I held off. I doubted my decision for the rest of the season and for months afterward, because I have been eating tag soup the whole year, but deep down, I know I made the right shot. Maybe that's not a great example, but I know of guys who have taken that shot and successfully killed elk. My other opportunity was the year before. I had a shot at a fat cow through the timber. She didn't know I was there and was at 35 yards. I ranged her exposed rump several times and knew what difficulties the shot presented. There were some limbs between her vitals and myself, but there was a clear shooting lane about the size of a softball, but I knew that my arrow would be arcing over a limb that was between my line of sight and the point I wanted to hit. I knew that the trajectory of my arrow would have worked just perfectly for her distance and the location of the obstructions between her and I . . . but the margin for error was not there. Not for a live animal . . . a sacred Elk. I have too much respect for such a magnificent creature to take that chance. Place a 3D target in that same situation and I'd bet my new bow on hitting a 10 ring on that target, but I wouldn't do it with a beating heart in my sights.

I'm not trying to bring on the heat, but encouraging archers to practice and take shots they are comfortable with is wonderful. Encouraging them not to hesitate and just loose an arrow if it's a shot that more experienced archers have successfully taken, is entirely different.

[montanabrown]

i don't think anyone is saying to try and push the ethical boundries. i think its more that you know you can make that shot but you second guess yourself and by that time its usually to late. at some point you have to just trust yourself and let it fly. why else put all the time and effort and money into this amazing sport if your just gonna continue to wait on the perfect shot or angle that more than likely will never happen.

[Swede]

To me this is a very meaningful discussion and I respect both sides. I agree that we should not be taking risky shots. Period!!! What I was referring to and what I thought Cnelk was referring to was hunters not being able to make very ethical shots due either to lack of practice or confidence. What I was referring to was what I have observed with individuals who hunt out of my camp. Some get elk regularly. Others sitting in the same tree stands are never or rarely filling their tags. It is not all luck.
About 4 years ago my cousin killed a bull 30 yards out from his stand. A few days later, another individual sitting in the same stand had a bull come into the exact same spot and wallow. This second hunter estimated the range at 45 yards and decided he should not risk it. I agree that he should not take a risky shot, but I have known range markers all around the stand. One marker was right next to the wallow and the hunter who failed to get the bull was there when I set up the markers. Another person missed a 6x6 at 15 yards that was broadside in the unobstructed opening. He had never practiced shooting from a stand. He rarely practiced at all. Another hunter came back with a sad story about his arrow hitting the only limb possible in a large area. He could have waited or just moved slightly.
I agree completely with those who say don't take risky shots. What I would encourage people to do is eliminate as much risk as possible by practicing as Lckytylr describes.

[wideangle]

I think that a surprising number of elk are wounded by bow hunters and never recovered.
I base this on solely on listening to other hunters throughout the year talking about shooting an elk and losing the trail.
Equipment is always improving. These improvements have led to longer shots.
I ran into two bow hunters last year that had 60 and 80 yard pins. They feel confident because they practice at that range all year.
The Situational Ethics article each month in Bugle has covered shot placement and distance in several issues over the years.
Good hunting to all!

[Da White Shoe]

I have even shot elk in the head with an arrow at 15ft from a tree stand as that was the best shot offered.

Please don't take this personally, because it's not meant that way.
I take you at your word... you are putting elk down with these shots and not wounding anything. More power to ya!

What it all boils down to... to my way of thinking, this isn't how the game is played.
For me, it's both lungs or the elk wins. That creed hasn't cost me an elk yet.
If and when it does cost me an elk, I'll be OK with it... there will be an un-scathed bull still running around out there, laughing at me.

I just don't feel the need. Anyone that takes one look at me can tell... hell, I'm not starvin'!

[LckyTylr]

Yeah, I guess I may have misinterpreted the OP and first few responses. I don't think you anyone on here would ever promote bad or risky shots. I guess it just struck a chord with me, a guy that hasn't been able to notch an elk tag yet. Lord knows I have tried. I place a lot of pressure on myself and I feel very well prepared to make good on a shot once it finally presents itself.

I guess I just took it too personal, as I REALLY want an animal, but I don't feel like I'm passing quality shots when they come. No hard feelings . . . at least not from this guy. It's a good discussion.

I have snuck arrows into numerous whitetails that many would pass on, but I knew my equipment and I understood the situation and possibilities of animal movement. The confidence was there . . . and soon the arrow was too.

[cnelk]

I appreciate all the replies guys.
I want to stress that no one is promoting bad or unethical shots.

I am promoting that there are many lethal shots that can be taken.
Recognizing them, along with your ability is key.

Even broadside shots go bad.
I have seen gun hunters wound many elk too, maybe even more than bowhunters, but that could justified by sheer numbers

Humor me this...

You are set up calling and an elk is coming in.
As we know, they zig and zag thru the timber trying to get a glimpse or smell of the the 'elk' [you]
As this elk is coming in, there is typically more than one lethal shot presented.
It can be broadside, quartering away, frontal.

You as a hunter need to recognize and/or predict what your shot is and when.

Kudos to those that pass on shots you are not comfortable with.
But I have a question for you...

When will you become comfortable?

In all of this, I am really trying to help you guys recognize it, to go to that next level and be successful

[LckyTylr]

I think comfort only comes with experience. I know what it takes to get a WT on the ground with an arrow, but I have heard a lot of stories about guys losing elk blood trails on what "seemed like" good shots. Once I get one down on the ground, I'm sure I will feel more comfortable with my 2nd.

[easeup]

this very subject is what I disliked most about bowhunters back in the day when all I toted was a carbine.

I have not forgot those stories about wounded critters running around like stuck pin cushions 'cause those dang bowhunters were poor shots or poor hunters whatever the case may be. I said to myself that whatever it takes, I will never be like those guys.

I will not challenge any opinion stated here by cnelk or others in regard to the shots they select or pass on. I personally think these threads are fanatastic so each man can see and think about what can happen in real life. Each man's shot choice is his and must be made at a unique time and space. Lets keep bringing them on and discuss our experiences for all to consider. Take for instance the frontal shot, I have never taken one; but I read and listen to each ones opinion on this shot for consideration should one happen to me one day. I do not want to be confused at the moment of truth.
Our younger hunters here also benefit from these threads because I perceive that they will see some of these hunting conditions and shot choices are not so black and white. Because we shoot different bows, arrows, broadheads, draw weights, different terain.....sometimes things that happened one way for one hunter just didnt happen that way for another under the same conditions.

no toes hurting here.....and I hope yours are not hurting either.

post up #4 soon.

[otcWill]

I'll bring you the heat!

I commend those who pass on shots....even ethical ones. I'm not one to wait for the absolute perfect shot. But if I have a doubt, I'll pass and wait for a better one. Just a personal choice.

Passing means more elk for others!

Well said! Also, having multiple opps per year makes one a bit less trigger happy

[Bowhunter]

Last year my hunting partner passed a quartering to and up hill shot on a heard bull at 15 yds. I was not there to see it as I was the caller but I do not think he made a bad choice. I am sure if the shot was not up hill and straight on he would have released the arrow. I have harvested over 40 whitetail with many shot angles. I had someone once tell me he made a good broadside shot and lost a deer. In my experience if you took out both lungs it was less than 30 seconds and the deer would be down. I am a firm believer that anything can happen and take shots I feel comfortable with. However I once shot a deer at 17yds mid ribs from front to back and 2/3 up from the bottom of his brisket. I got a pass through and the deer ran 80 yds and layed down. He the got up 1 hour later and walked off. I went home and returned 4 hours after the shot and spooked him from his bed. I waited another 1.5 hours and then found him 100yds away dead. When I hung and gutted the deer the arrow appeared to be perfect through the middle of the lungs. I can only guess that he had exhaled at the shot and somehow the lungs dropped and the arrow passed over them. I am open to any other ideas of what happened. I now learned to shoot 2-2.5 inches lower and a couple more forward with great results.

[Swede]

In general I think bow hunters are an ethical bunch when it comes to shooting at game. I know wounding has been a very low number from what I have personally observed. That said I am reminded of a display I saw in at the butcher shop where I often have my elk processed. On a shelf they have a display of old broad heads. I was looking at it while waiting to pick up my elk. I asked the butcher if they recovered all of them from game they processed. He replied in the affirmative, so I asked how the number of old broad heads they find in animals compared to bullets. His reply was, "oh, we find a lot more bullets." In that part of Eastern Oregon rifle hunting is highly restricted while bow hunting is still otc.

[Trophyhill]

My take is this. More guys take shots they say they would not take on the forums than some let on and simply do not talk about wounding or missing shots.

[cnelk]

Here is a scenario

Doable?
This looks like one of those times you dont have much time to decide.

I realize the pic doesnt show the whole front of the elk
But Im taking this shot.
Im putting my arrow on that the branch on his shoulder - right next to the tree
The branch is close enough to the bull and small enough that it wont affect arrow flight

[GetemDuck]

yes i would take that shot.

I know my limits I know how small of a target i can hit and that the perfect shot is an urban legend, there are no perfect shots or chip shots things can go wrong every single time i draw my bow. I us to take my target to the wood behind my grand parent and set it up and would have to shoot through trees and tree forks sure you kill some arrows but in the end i knew what I could and could not do.

This is an interesting thread and i think the OP was just pointing out that alot of people pass on good shots waiting for the text book perfect shot.....take the good , don't wait.

[BrentLaBere]

I'm not sure I could pass it up...

[WapitiTalk1]

Thwack! Dead bull.

[Swede]

The point from the beginning here was to encourage people to look for a good shot opportunity, be prepared, and take it when it comes. Go out on your hunt as a lethal predator. Ya, I can have a fun hunt without coming back with anything, but it would have been a lot better with a cooler full of meat and a set of antlers to mount when I got home.

[JohnFitzgerald]

I commend cnelk for this post. Dont think he was supporting unethical shots. But wants others to realize that hunters can better themselves by becoming more proficient with advanced shot placement.

[Z Barebow]

Not stepping on my toes!

For me, confidence has come with knowledge of the anatomy of the animal.

How many guys take a rear quartering away shot, aiming at last rib in the hopes of driving it into the lungs and out the front chest? But yet will not take a front quartering shot, with the arrow to exit out near the diaphragm? Isn't the arrow trajectory the same?

Same rear quartering shot as above. What happens if the guy punches it and arrow hits too far back? I'll bet more critters have been lost and died from a gut shot and tracked too early than many would care to admit.

I cut my teeth hunting WT's. Only taking broadside or quartering away shots. I also hunted strictly out of tree stands. Fast forward to my 1st elk. The elk was not that bright and came in to 8 yards. I kept trying to get on his chest and couldn't. His head was bobbing left to right, trying to figure out what we were. (I was at full draw on my knees). I remembered a video on the frontal shot. I also went by my knowledge of WT anatomy. I moved my aiming point to where his windpipe disappeared into his chest and drew an imaginary line through the elk. I realized I would hit the goodies. (Elk was at 8 yards). At the shot, we could see the arrow hanging out near the rear hip. The blood flew when he spun at the shot. We watched him tip at 80 yards.

You won't find this shot in any bowhunter education manual. (I know, I have taken the course and I have the manual!). In this particular example, I would argue this shot is more fatal than broadside. Why? The arrow traveled in through the windpipe, transected the lungs the "long way", penetrated the liver, eventually exiting behind the diapragm. That arrow hit more vitals than an arrow broadside could have ever accomplished.

The circumstances were right in that example. At 8 yards, my shots vary by less than an inch. (I don't practice much ast 8 yards!) Offer me the same shot at 30 yards or twist his neck in a different direction, it would be a no.

Don't just look at where your aiming point is, think about where your arrow will travel and what organs it will hit. Your knowledge and ability to execute will determine whether you should release or not.

[elkmtngear]

I think everyone has their own set of standards when it comes to taking a shot, for example, there are a lot of guys here that shoot trad gear, or shoot without sights or releases (that would be me)

Even though 99 percent of guys these days put a pin on a spot and pull a trigger....there are still some "old school" guys out there.

I realize that I have to practice all the time to be lethal on elk, and I know my limits.

Technology has seriously changed the game, so pick your little spot and pull your trigger if that's what you do.

I'll do things my way and still kill elk.

[CrazyElkHunter]

Well Brad (cnelk), we have been on the same page for a long time, in this forum and in others. I was not going to comment on this one, but have been reading posts and gave in. I have been bowhunting for over 45 years and bowhunting elk for almost 35. I have killed a lot of animals with a bow during that time. 27 were elk. Some of those places were on Islands off the west coast you can not hunt anymore. I was very heavy into tournament archery in the 70's and 80's and won a bunch of them. Im still considered to be a very good shot with a bow and can place a arrow on a elk where I'm aiming. Ok, here go's. I would never take a head shot on any elk, or any big game for that matter with a bow.. There is a camp with at least 5 hunters a few miles from us that looses several elk every year the 1st week of the archery season from poor rushed shots or because of excitement. These guys can hit spots out 90 yards consistently but with adrenaline rush they turn to mush. You can practice and get really confident but when the action starts it can and will change your ability to hold it together. In the last picture, the bulls vitals are covered by the tree and small branches can deflect the arrow. I am confident the arrow would hit the bull, just not in a good area. It's all neck and huge thick shoulders. I respect the power and size of the elk and know they can go for miles on 1 lung if pushed. By suggesting to new and old elk hunters to take risky shots, in my opinion, can lead to more wounded lost elk. I know you expected heat and you should by posting about shooting elk in the head. (Now I'm going to get the heat) You are a very good elk hunter and very knowledgeable about elk, which we are all grateful that you share. I just would rather see a post about making a clean ethical, high percentage shot rather than risky ones. I pass on bulls every year like the ones demonstrated on the subject. I have been hunting them long enough to know what it feels like to spend hours on my knees trying to find a drop of blood from poor shots. Sorry to step on your toes a little Brad, it's just my opinion and don't hold it against me. From 1 veteran elk hunter to another, you know experience makes it easier when hunting elk to hold it together for a precise shot.

[buglmin]

Wow...Im sorry, but guys take risky shots out of desperation. And Im sorry to upset guys here, but guys take risky shots trying to make things happen in a bad situation. I dont knowmost guys on here, dont know if they are good elk hunters or not, but we gotta draw the line somewhere, and shooting elk in the head with archery tackle...Wow!!
Maybe Im not an expert, maybe Ive let bulls get away because things just didnt feel right or I didnt get the shot I wanted. Yes, Ive killed bulls quartering to me, and bulls straight on to me. But theses bulls have been close, and because I know where to shot. But I also know the limits to my equipment, with either my compounds or recurves. I know how deadly some shots are, but I dont go shooting game walking straight away from me either. Such shots arent shots that a guy that respects the animals he is hunting takes, sorry!!
Its all about knowing where we need to place the arrow, what organs will be hit from the shot angle, and the results from these hits. An elk quartering to you should be hit tight behind the shoulder, taking out the lung, piercing the diaphram, and taking out the liver. A liver shot bull will go a ways, gets sick and lays down, with dark, red blood. Its an ethical shot. Ive killed bulls with my recurve with this shot, and I wont hesitate to take it.
Ive seen a bull hit in the foot that cut the achillies tendon, (spelling), that got sick and laid down after going twenty yards, seen a huge bull take an arrow under the jaw bone bleed out in seconds, but these were accidents, arrows defletched by small brush that was very close to the bulls, but still able to deflect heavy arrows. These were shots taken out of desperation, trying to make things happen. I know bad things happen, arrows hit where we didnt want them to, animals react faster then we expect, and animals will be hit and lost. Its all a part of hunting. Taking a high risk shot, shooting at an animals head, shouldnt be taken with archery equipment, no matter who you are. Sorry, but everyone knows that, everyone has been taught better. And Im sorry, but its something that shouldnt be talked about on a public forum.

[cnelk]

I truly appreciate the replies and input on all aspects.

Yes. I could not have mentioned the head shot. But I did it and cant take it away.
The elk died instantly. Unlike other elk that some hunters have taken [even here] that require another arrow, maybe 2 to expire the elk.
This is typical when only one lung is penetrated.

I have seen 'low risk' shots turn out bad too....

Like mentioned, a quick humane kill is what we are striving to do.

Another shot that can be taken from a tree stand is a spinal shot.
Is that unethical? High risk?
It would definitely put the elk down, but would require a 2nd shot

Is it better shoot an elk and let it elk 'go a ways' and die a slow death, or is a quick death better?
Which one is is more ethical?

Once again, I am not promoting any shots that are uncomfortable for anyone to take.
I am only promoting that there are many quick, lethal shots to take.

I am also promoting a healthy discussion. In hopes to educate anyone that may be interested.

Carry on...

[easeup]

very good gentlemen. this is a thread with some serious meat in it for all patrons here.
thanks to all.

[JohnFitzgerald]

Stand up applause for Brad. Takes some really big ****'s to put yourself out there like that. Since this is a touchy subject, I want to thank everyone for their courteous and professional replies.

Nice job guys!

[CrazyElkHunter]

Brad, We all want the fastest, cleanest kill possible, but that would be in a perfect world. A clean shot through the boiler maker with scalpel sharp broad heads doe's just that with minimal discomfort to the animal. But it sounds like you want to knock them off there feet, fast kill, like a brain, spine or 7mag shot. Before any new hunter that takes to the woods chasing elk with a bow, they need to understand what archery tackle is designed to do since the cave man." Cause mass loss of blood by hemorrhaging" or deflating the lungs. They get weak quickly, lay down and take a permanate dirt nap. I've lost a few elk in my life time and almost gave up hunting them with a bow because I was sick about it. Thanks to good friends with supporting words made me move on and accept that s**t happens. Hitting branches I did not see, caused those bad shots. I am glad you went out on a limb with such a delicate subject, and I hope that the people on this forum learn from the responses, what is a ethical shot and what is not. Other than the head shot, everthing else is very imformitive. Thanks for opening up a can of worms! You either have big b***s or your crazier than I am!

[ctdad]

I remember reading about cnelk's head shot story when he posted it (must not have been on here). At the time, I was surprised he wasn't beat up a little more for the decision. Him taking that shot doesn't bother me b/c it was on a calf that likely had a softer, thinner skull than an old bull would and that trauma is instantly lethal. However, I do understand the concern of a bad shot ending with an elk calf running around with an arrow sticking out of his forehead like a unicorn.

Regarding the general discussion of being aggressive but smart with shot selection, I think it is an individual decision that should be based on anatomical knowledge, situational presence (adrenaline often removes this), confidence and comfort. You may not all agree with another hunters shot selection all the time, but it is hard to argue with results. It is also hard to defend unicorns!

I really like the picture of the bull behind the tree limb and discussing that shot. I passed on a similar shot last year b/c one step forward and he was going to be in the wide open. Instead, he turned and walked straight away. I should have shot. cnelk is talking about me in the OP.

[Swede]

I am satisfied that Brad and others can shoot deer and elk as if ice water is flowing through their veins. I find it amazing that someone would condemn Brad for sending a broad head into the brain of an elk, but would keep silent at someone taking a 50 yard shot. I have never taken a shot at an animal's head, and have no desire to. But with the bull taking a drink, head down and facing toward you at 15 yards; a well placed arrow will drop him right there. On the other hand a hunter can make a perfect shot at 50 yards, but the elk takes just one step and you have a huge problem.
I watched Phil Phillips shoot a running animal on video. The arrow passed through the femoral artery and left a great blood trail and quickly died. Tell me that shot was made by design, and why was he shooting at a running animal. Chuck Adams wrote about shooting a deer, I believe, The deer turned 180 degrees from the time he released the arrow until it was hit. What would have happened if it just jumped forward. Fred Bear shoots over a crest at an animal that is completely out of sight, and people say he was such a great shot. I would never think of taking a shot like that. I could go on and on.
My personal limit on shooting range is 40 yards max for deer or elk. Maybe I would reconsider if the bull was laying in bed looking away. I don't know, but I did deliberately spine an elk once. As Brad said it did need to be shot again, but it never took another step after being hit with a 2117 aluminum arrow shot from a 70# bow. I knew the shot would stop the elk in its tracks. Three of us had to drag it out of the water hole.
Again I think the point is for people to get very proficient with their equipment, and develop an eye to see opportunity. No one is advocating taking high risk shots. That is why I limit myself. That is why last year I stood and waited 15 minutes for the bull to step forward, away from a bushy tree But at the moment I saw a clear shot to the vitals, the arrow was in his boiler room. There was no hesitation anymore. My thought is that you either develop a high level of shooting skill and see quality shot opportunities, or develop some good receipts for tag soup. Remember there are high risk shots and low risk shots. You are the one who has to decide if the risk of wounding is low enough to be acceptable.

[LckyTylr]

Swede . . . that is AWESOME!!!

Pretty much sums it all up, very good post.

[quarbles]

"Do you need some ice in your veins...."
going out on a limb, but could it be there is a large group of people out there that romanticize the idea of bowhunting, get into the gear and the calling and all the other 'skills' involved, but when it comes down to it they can't kill? its easy to flub a shot (or not take one), have an excuse and eat tag soup. probabl'y even easier if one's just in it for the whole experience and the whole 'sport' aspect. the way i read it the original post was alluding to this, almost a bit of a reminder that after all is said and done success results in the death of an animal.

[Swede]

quarbles: You make a good point. Success is figured in different ways. I measure it by the pound. Some by antler size, and for others it is the experience. I could have all of the woods experience I want and never carry any hunting paraphernalia with me. When I pick up my bow and head out, I intend to kill something. For me it is almost always an elk. My practice is almost all at home or in camp now days. When I am elk hunting, I would not consider a trophy buck or a big cougar as "success". That is me. It does not matter if anyone else shares that mind set.

[quarbles]

i'm just finding that with all the forums and discussions (from reeds/ call sequences, what bow/ arrow combinations, what gear, what camo, sleep system, foods, what pack, how athletic) its fairly easy to be really good at all the proponents of hunting without actually killing. when an animal presents a shot you either can or can't; regardless of what sweat and gear got you there, what call sequence got him there, what bow/ string/ arrow/ broadhead/ fletching you have. in that moment, you either can or can't.

[Swede]

Quarbles: You nailed it buddy. It's amazing how we agonize over which camo pattern is best, or if an Easton or Beman arrow is better.