Calling Within "Your" Limits

[Trophyhill]

as a guy who believes in not limiting himself in anything whether it's learning something knew from someone at work, or always looking for a better way to do something (anything not just hunting) I try not to put limitations on myself. I never thought I'd want to consider "limiting" my calling when i started this obsession a few years ago, while at the same time trying not to "over call". but what I mean is, the more time I get in the elkwoods, the more limitation I am putting on my calling. in other words I'm making sounds just as often as before but whittling down to and making the sounds I feel confident with and are crisp on demand. (until I feel developed as a caller) am I thinking right here? or should I be thinking in another direction?

[Da White Shoe]

I would say that you may be over thinking it a little, David.
In the first place, there are really only about 6 calls that I find myself using 99% of the time... not counting raking, stomping, etc.
Of those 6, I could probably get by with 4 or 5 just as well.

Secondly, when I do feel the need to pull one out that I'm not that used to, I don't worry about screwing it up.
Elk make goofy sounds all the time. Ever heard one that was running or bedded?
A goofy sounding call won't mean that much to the elk that's listening... until you do it 3 or 4 times in a row.

The last thing is, the actual sound of your call is much less important than the meaning behind it and the setting in which it was made.
Remember that elk "calling" is a tool we use in elk "hunting."

My thoughts on it anyway...

[otcWill]

I agree with dws. Be confident and expect your stuff to work. That said, I have called in more elk with stomping and raking mixed with some simple scream or mews than any other more complicated methods.

[easeup]

yeh, I've heard elk make some really weird sounds too.
so I dont worry about goofin them up too much either.

any limits on what I do are usually and totaly bounded by indecision on what I ought to do.

[flyinhunter]

Are any of you guys/gals finding elk to be getting call wise? Does anyone "blind call"? Bugle or cow call with no knowledge of anything nearby?

I am extreemly opinionated on the subject of "calling" elk. I know my methods have changed due to the wolves and bears in the area. I would like to hear how you guys feel and how successful you are with calling before I open my yap too wide.... beings as I'm new here and don't want to ruffel feathers in someone elses living room so-to-speak

Great subject BTW!

[Trophyhill]

It's all good flyinhunter. Any and all feedback is welcome. I want to be the best caller on the mountain when I decide to open my yap even though some say its not neccesary

[Da White Shoe]

Just to clarify, in my post above... I did not mean to imply that you could go around quacking like a duck and it wouldn't matter.

You have to know what "good" sounds like in the first place, but if you're a little off on a call here and there, it won't much matter... as long as you get it right quickly.

As it is with anything in life... if you want to be the best caller on the mountain, you need to practice a lot.
And, if you feel limited... you can fix that. All it takes is work.

[flyinhunter]

It's all good flyinhunter. Any and all feedback is welcome. I want to be the best caller on the mountain when I decide to open my yap even though some say its not neccesary

Well let me start by saying that this is my opinion and I have found it to work for me where I hunt. Wyoming, Thorofare, public land, fair chase, no fences, wolves and bears up the ying yang. Your milage may vary as different areas have different pressure and other variables. But out here the #1 thing above and beyond everything else is that if you blow elk and they leave, they are gone. I mean gone, bye bye, see you next year! Wind is the #1 thing in my opinion. Learn the updrafts, when they start. Mountain breeze, Valley breeze. ...if a guy wants to learn a little about calling, first learn a lot about wind/weather. Assuming we know the wx side and to stay on task-

In 2000(ish), before the wolves and bears were bad a very good method I used was I'd ride out of camp with my hunters following in the dark. Once away from camp I'd bugle from horseback while we rode up the trail until we got an answer. Maybe one bugle per half mile. Then the hunt was on. This method was used when I wasn't exactally sure where I was going or where the elk were. It was a locating tactic. Once I heard them I would shut up till I was in close and even then, in close I stuck to my cow calls usually.

I think of those calls mostly as an alarm clock for elk. As soon as I hit one every elk in the dang drainage knows exactally where I am. That's not to say don't use them. Just be aware they can cause as much harm as good if your ducks arent in a row. Wind, being quiet/still, vantage point, etc.

That said, the last few years this country has seen an intense amount of pressure from bears and wolves. As far as the wolves go, if they are in the drainage the bugle literally stops. Seems like the elk won't make a peep when we see fresh wolf sign. As you might conclude, if we don't hear them and we know wolves are about there isn't much sense in calling. All you do is tell them where you are and they won't answer.

The bears are a factor but not to the extent. Mostly, the last 3 or 4 years my cow call has been way over 50% successful at gaurenteeing if I sqeek it I'm about to have a bear in my lap. Scary? Not after the 20th time. It's just irritating now. Not to get off telling stories but I was up on the Trident Pleateu a few years ago and ran smack into a bear. I hollered at him and he bolted right down into a bowl I wanted to hunt. There is one patch of piss furs, the kind of shrubby type trees you see near the tree line. It was maybe 200yards by 50 yards. Anyway the son of a gun blasted right through the center of that patch of piss furs and I figured we were all done. Time to ride on to Escarpment Creek and hunt the park line. In fact I told my hunters that was it. Well, turned out there was 30 head bedded in that patch of piss furs and they never even stood up... well, they stood up and ran but that was 2 hours later when some dumb guide misjudged the wind on a stalk about 100 yards out. Whoops. I never heard those elk make a peep and that bear was "mothing" really close to them before I ran him off.

Anyhow, my theroy on calling goes like this. Just to disclose ahead of time that it isn't scientific and I have no basis for this other than my own personal experience, in this specific area. It's just something I think.

I like to explain it by visualizing a target, the herd bull is the bullseye. The outter ring (1/2 mile from the bull maybe?) I like the bugle. Strictly as a locator. First off, you will never call a herd bull off his cows, especially with a bugle from most any distance. I still see this as a 50/50 deal. He might answer, he might not. He might answer and start trying to push his cows off because he doesnt want to fight. I like to bugle like a weenie. No chuckles or grunts. I just try to sound like a not-so-threatening raghorn.

The middle ring, Maybe half a mile in to about 75 yards I see the cow call as the best tool to keep him talking. It's non threatening. You can bet that if he has satalite bulls, they'll be coming in quiet. So keep an eye out that they don't bust you and ruin your day. Just remember, every time you sqeek it you are giving them a position report.

The bullseye, 75 yards or so. Maybe less? I like the cow call too. You are close enough that he doesn't have to leave his cows to look for you and it remains a non threatening call. You can get him to ease in towards you to see what the fuss is about. A bugle in the bullseye seems to work well too but in my experience the bugle sends them running towards you to fight. Especially if you hit a cow call then bugle right after.

I'm not a know it all or anything, I just shared my theroy on the whole calling subject. I'm certain it works atleast half the time... everytime. Maybe? Anyhow, I'm sure it could be blown out of the water by some science nerd if they really picked it apart. But like I said, its just an opinion and seems to work for me.

All I know is the biggest bulls I've killed, like 350+ I have never heard bugle and never had one answer any calls. They've all been up in the rocks and piss furs with just a few cows hiding out. Keeping quiet and keeping to themselves. I've wondered quite a bit and am begining to form a theroy that bulls reach psyical maturity before they reach their peak on antler size? But who knows?

One last thing to remember, conditions and circumstances are always changing. In my opinion there is no single thing that applies to calling elk 100% of the time. You just do what the situation dictates. Speak soft and sweet when you need to, loud and mean when you have to. Theres countless variables to just say "this way works every time"

[ElkNut1]

Zach, welcome to the forum & thanks for your insight bud!

Trophyhill, we all have our limitations when it comes to the hunt mentally & physically, calling is situational for that day! This means if you were to limit oneself then it's self induced. Calling within ones limits gives the impression that ones only know certain sounds & nothing beyond those few, of course they are limiting themselves to those sounds which none of may be best for the situation or day at hand. Play with a full deck & choose right sounds for right day & phase of the rut. This takes experience in the elkwoods to choose high odds methods per encounter. Treat satellites like satellites & herd bulls like herd bulls, both are very callable, just do not expect the same sounds to be high odds of success for both!
Herd bulls cowed up are the most vulnerable elk out there, they can be extremely defensive when you push their backs against the wall. In these instances if you rely on cow calling in setup fashion to seal the deal you will be 10%-15% effective at best killing these bulls, those are very low odds! Reach into that limitless full deck & yank out the correct card for that specific situation, nice thing is there's generally more than one way to skin a cat so several different cards can work! (grin)

ElkNut1

[Trophyhill]

thanks for the feedback guys. I need lots and lots of practice.

[flyinhunter]

thanks for the feedback guys. I need lots and lots of practice.

I have all my calls in the pickup. I practice a lot while driving

[Trophyhill]

thanks for the feedback guys. I need lots and lots of practice.

I have all my calls in the pickup. I practice a lot while driving

I need to start doing that. At the moment I live in a resort community that is literally stacked on top of each other with so many homeowner association rules it's ridiculous. the one time I did practice in the house I had visits from 3 neighbors threatening to call the association on me if I kept it up. I had to bite my tongue on that one. I can't wait to get back home to NM in August where my nearest neighbor is 2 acres away.

Zane, your input is always welcome and I didn't mean to sound flippant. I've heard you call and you can call with the best of the best. i'm just trying to get to that point. I don't want to be one of those guys that when I call, other hunters will hear and say to themselves "well there's another hunter" if ya know what I mean.

[flyinhunter]

Zach, welcome to the forum & thanks for your insight bud!

Trophyhill, we all have our limitations when it comes to the hunt mentally & physically, calling is situational for that day! This means if you were to limit oneself then it's self induced. Calling within ones limits gives the impression that ones only know certain sounds & nothing beyond those few, of course they are limiting themselves to those sounds which none of may be best for the situation or day at hand. Play with a full deck & choose right sounds for right day & phase of the rut. This takes experience in the elkwoods to choose high odds methods per encounter. Treat satellites like satellites & herd bulls like herd bulls, both are very callable, just do not expect the same sounds to be high odds of success for both!
Herd bulls cowed up are the most vulnerable elk out there, they can be extremely defensive when you push their backs against the wall. In these instances if you rely on cow calling in setup fashion to seal the deal you will be 10%-15% effective at best killing these bulls, those are very low odds! Reach into that limitless full deck & yank out the correct card for that specific situation, nice thing is there's generally more than one way to skin a cat so several different cards can work! (grin)

ElkNut1

Amen to that, Bold especially!

But I'm courious what you mean when you say, "Herd bulls cowed up are the most vulnerable elk out there"?

In my experience that is true for the bull only. The problem is those darn lead cows and not to mention all the extra eyes scanning for movement. Keeping that in mind, I'd say herd bulls are the most protected and hardest to call (due to them already being surrounded by cows) and therefore hardest to kill. Did I misinterpret something? Perhaps we are talking about locating them and not so much "getting on" them"?

The younger herd bulls seem to always be raising all sorts of heck. Bugleing and tearing stuff up. Second only to the young sattilite bulls. But in my experience, the old wise bulls don't bugle near as much and generally avoid a fight. If you're lucky enough to get them to answer a bugle the usually start moving away from the threat. That's why, in my earlier post, I was talking about threatening vs nonthreatening calls.

Of course, the phase of the rut and moons, weather, voodoo dolls, elk gods, mother nature and all that crap makes the behavior change somewhat. But generally speaking? ...It's such a dynamic environment that we are probably waisting a lot of time talking about this ....but this is the internet so I guess we should beat this subject to death. Maybe get in an argument and curse eachothers parental status?

[Da White Shoe]

thanks for the feedback guys. I need lots and lots of practice.

I have all my calls in the pickup. I practice a lot while driving

I need to start doing that. At the moment I live in a resort community that is literally stacked on top of each other with so many homeowner association rules it's ridiculous. the one time I did practice in the house I had visits from 3 neighbors threatening to call the association on me if I kept it up. I had to bite my tongue on that one. I can't wait to get back home to NM in August where my nearest neighbor is 2 acres away.

Zane, your input is always welcome and I didn't mean to sound flippant. I've heard you call and you can call with the best of the best. i'm just trying to get to that point. I don't want to be one of those guys that when I call, other hunters will hear and say to themselves "well there's another hunter" if ya know what I mean.

I didn't take anything you wrote in that way, old Pard!

When I first started bowhunting in 1980, I used the type of bugle you could just blow into.
It sounded good enough to get a response... if the bull was at a distance! So, that's the way I used it. Locator at a distance.
But, I soon realized how much of a liability it was and switched to a diaphragm and tube.
I practiced a lot and got to where I was making some pretty good sounds. Fooled '80s elk, anyway.
The trouble was, in order to sound real enough, I had to do the same amount of pre-season practice the next year... and the next!
So, my conclusion was... for me, it just took too many things to go right, every time... for the sound that comes out of it to satisfy me.
I was pretty busy on the road playing music back then... I didn't feel like spending more time practicing something!

As you know, I use a banded type bugle now. The hunter that turned me on to it is the only guy that has ever fooled me from inside 100 yards!
The sounds I can make with it are as close to real as I've been able to make. My brother too. I still have a hard time telling him from the bull.
I know that there are guys using a tube that sound 100% real... I just haven't run into them in the woods yet.
For me, it's not a big deal. In my mind, there's no big mystique involved in using a diaphragm and grunt tube.
I decided a long time ago... I would use what sounds best in my hands, with the least amount of work involved to accomplish.

[slim9300]

Thanks for the thread David. Some good responses.

[ElkNut1]

Zach, no typo bud, with the right moves on the hunters part this is when most herd bulls will bite the dust! You cannot treat all bulls the same even if they all had cows. Some bulls will be amongst hot cows & some will not, these types have to be separated in our minds & worked accordingly. Calling a bull away from his cows that is bugling aggressively is what it's all about, quick aggressive action where you pose a direct threat to him or his harem & he will not back down, closeness & being big on the callers part is essential here you must be a competitive force that he knows he must take physical action against because you are a true dominant type bull that his cows could possibly choose over himself, it's the survival of the fittest!

If you maintain the thought that you need to be a smallish bull in most herd bull encounters you will find you call very few in & kill even fewer. In the elk world herd bulls can send intimidating sounds out that most satellites back down to so this does not require a physical action on the herd bulls part, you must be a force to be reckoned with in those high adrenalin encounters!

When bulls are cowed up but there are no hot cows in the group you must play on their curiosity & manhood, this will give you your best opportunity at killing that type! Of course a good old fashion ambush can work too if the terrain & wind dictates it & you can slip in silently or get ahead of them & have them come by you.

ElkNut1

[flyinhunter]

Zach, no typo bud, with the right moves on the hunters part this is when most herd bulls will bite the dust! You cannot treat all bulls the same even if they all had cows. Some bulls will be amongst hot cows & some will not, these types have to be separated in our minds & worked accordingly. Calling a bull away from his cows that is bugling aggressively is what it's all about, quick aggressive action where you pose a direct threat to him or his harem & he will not back down, closeness & being big on the callers part is essential here you must be a competitive force that he knows he must take physical action against because you are a true dominant type bull that his cows could possibly choose over himself, it's the survival of the fittest!

If you maintain the thought that you need to be a smallish bull in most herd bull encounters you will find you call very few in & kill even fewer. In the elk world herd bulls can send intimidating sounds out that most satellites back down to so this does not require a physical action on the herd bulls part, you must be a force to be reckoned with in those high adrenalin encounters!

When bulls are cowed up but there are no hot cows in the group you must play on their curiosity & manhood, this will give you your best opportunity at killing that type! Of course a good old fashion ambush can work too if the terrain & wind dictates it & you can slip in silently or get ahead of them & have them come by you.

ElkNut1

This is a good post! In that context I understand what you were saying in the above post. I have had a few of those encounters even if by accident. Like I was saying, we are so careful in this country not to push them we end up unknowingly saftey(ing) up and playing the wind more than a bulls manhood Ambush style, easing in on them usually from above. It's a product of the outfitting industry. All elk are important when you are going to guide 10 hunters in 2 months. It just is what it is.

This is a good tool to throw in the bag of tricks. I'm excited to try it. Although, I admit that it's ingrained too deep, and far too important to not blow elk, for me to stop craweling up in the rocks and doing the spot and stalk, drop in and get em. But adding this to close up the distance will be fun to try.

[Trophyhill]

Thanks for the thread David. Some good responses.

No problem Conlan. Just trying to do my part in keeping elk talk alive and strong til late August

[ElkNut1]

Zach, thanks! I hear ya loud & clear too, I'm familiar with the Outfitter world a bit & their reasoning although I've never been with one but they do for the most part have the non aggressive approach in fear of blowing elk out of the neighborhood. (grin) I'm mainly a DIY OTC public land hunter & firmly believe on aggressive action & tactics, I let the elk dictate my methods of use for each individual day & encounter & adapt to it, this works fairly well as does your style of elk hunting. None of us ever have too many tactics! (grin) Good luck!

ElkNut1