what is a nice bull

[bnsafe]

with the pass or shoot thread i got to thinking. first off what is a "big bull" inch wise. 250,300 ? i seriously dont know. and what is a "average" bull in colorado otc units that yall kill. while im shooting an looked like most everybody is, those are the bulls ya gotta let pass if you want bigger bulls. i was surprised that some of the guys on here would shoot that bull. again, dont get me wrong, im shootin him.

[otcWill]

You'll be amongst a select few if you kill a300 plus OTC Colorado bull. We see a few over3 each season and a 320 gross is our biggest so far on OTC hunts

[RockChucker30]

I got a 320ish bull last year on DIY OTC public land archery, and I fully expect it will never happen again. That is a really, really big bull for that situation.

Now, this year I'm holding out for the first bull that has 4 on one side or a 5" browtine.......for a day or two anyway. Then cows are in trouble.

If you're a new elk hunter going into that situation don't limit yourself to an antler size requirement. It's hard enough already, you don't need to make it harder.

[Fullabull]

At this point I'm still hunting with my dad who can't go to far, any legal bull it good
When he stops hunting and my son is done with college, we might get a chance at bigger bulls.

[Swede]

That bull cnelk posted on the Pass or Shoot thread is a very nice elk for the otc area I hunt in Oregon. When you consider that the success rate is only 10% and only 1 in 20 (my estimate only) elk killed is a P&Y bull, it makes that bull look especially nice. Another thing to consider when looking at the odds of getting a bigger bull in an OTC area is cheating effect. No, I am not suggesting anyone cheat, but rather reminding you that I have reason to believe there is a significant number of the big bulls taken each year were taken illegally. I suspect that nearly everyone who has hunted an area or knows certain hunters, suspect them to be poachers. They brag a lot but demonstrate no particular skill. They miss a frequently on the 3D range, but they score high, and they commonly get a P&Y bull. I have no evidence on the matter, but it just does not pass the smell test.
I believe the hunters who frequent this forum are genuinely trying to learn, and they want to hunt the right way. The point here, for almost all OTC hunters, is to be realistic. Don't base your decision on what you think someone else has done or will do. Cnelk's bull is a legitimate trophy almost anywhere any time.

[Bowhunter]

I would shoot any legal bull. I might hold out a little while for something bigger after I have bagged a few.

[bnsafe]

im shootin any legal elk and am not gonna restrict myself, even if a cow comes by. i just dont have any reference as to what a avg bull is not having much experience. we saw 2 last year bigger than the one cnelk posted, at least they looked like it to me, but im sure a scraggly 4 pt is avg in otc. i was just kinda shocked to hear so many people being willing to shoot a bull like that.

[bnsafe]

and on another note, what is the bugler teeth and do yall actually take them out or leave em. i may be asking the wrong thing.

[sleepymoe]

I would say there are some real nice, mature 5 pts that I'd consider a nice bull and most 6pt or better certainly qualify. There are some squab 6pt that IMO would not.

I'm surprised some say it is rare to tag a 300 DIY archery. Not everyone plastures the net or Facebook pg with their success. In fact, some guys tag a 300+ almost year in year out. Does the avg guy do that, no way.

I guess my pt is there are plenty 300+ DIY tagged, doesn't take a guide and mules and a lot of money to do it

[BrentLaBere]

and on another note, what is the bugler teeth and do yall actually take them out or leave em. i may be asking the wrong thing.

Ivory? I think that is what you are referring to. I was asked if I wanted to keep mine and I had no idea what they were even talking about. Might keep the next ones and I think for the most part its like keeping the rack for a memory sake.

As far as a nice elk, well, anyone you can get home and put in the freezer with out spoiling meat. I posted in the other thread that I would pass because I like to think of going after the biggest and meanest bull on the mountain. The challenge in itself for the hardest one to get and there is just something about the antlers that gets me pumped up. Young and dumb I suppose. But the same goes for whitetail hunting and I have yet to shoot a P&Y but I swear to all of my friends that rifle hunt having large deer on the wall, the bow is the way to go. Every season comes up with new hopes of getting that monster down because I love the path that I have to take to get there. Always love having meat in the freezer too so that's where I get torn.
But to answer in a simple way......I believe 260 scores P&Y. Start with that as a trophy

[cnelk]

Here is my take...

Go hunt hard for 5-6 days. I mean hard.
Up at O dark thirty, 15 miles before noon each day.
Then hunt evenings.
Back to camp after dark. Make something to eat.

Do this for 5-6 days and I guarantee you a 3x3 bull will be considered a nice bull.
So will a cow.

Ivories - Both cows and bulls have them. Get them out right after done field dressing your elk.
The sooner they come out, the easier they come out.

I think my bull from last year is a pretty nice bull.
Qualifies for P&Y but I havent entered him.

I have also shot some pretty nice cows too.
Havent entered them either

[FemoralArchery]

To me, a big bull is 320 plus in an OTC archery public land hunt. I see several each year this big or bigger although they are very tough to kill.

[Lefty]

To me any 5x5 that is sort of even is a nice bull.

I hunt an area that has a fair population of" nice bulls", just a very low population overall

[eriks.]

bnsafe, a nice bull to me is one that will stand still long enough for me to kill it. All the others are without a doubt, not nice bulls! Sorry, nobody else had said it yet and there always has to be smart-aleck in the crowd.

[Indian Summer]

Cnelk makes a good point: A shooter is one that you'd love to have in front of you in the last hour of your hunt. I bet that's a different picture than what you'd shoot on day one.

A bull does not have to be a 6 point to be a good representative animal. In fact there are some damn big 5 points out there that will even make Pope & Young which is 260 for a Rocky Mountain elk. That said.... 260 is a shooter most always. I've told the story here before about the 260 bull I used to take to shows. Everyone pointed at it and said "I'd take just a 300 incher like that" What does that tell you? A 260 inch bull has 6 decent points. Maybe even some nice fronts and decent 4th points. Probably not a big 5th or "whales tail" for a back end and no noticeably heavy mass. Like your back home decent 8 point whitetail buck for you easterners. A 300 inch bull will be heavier, but not noticeably at a glance, have better 4ths for sure, and a BIT more of a substantial back end which are the 5th & 6th points.

Excluding people who draw great tags or have some prime private land to hunt most will not kill a 300 inch bull every single year. The ones who do are also the ones who see 200 inch bucks regularly if you get my drift. That's public land OTC bulls I'm referring to. YES I definitely might see bulls like that as will many but seeing & killing as we all know are two very different things. I'd say it's safe to assume that the average successful public land elk hunter who has his act together will always consider a 300 incher above average. If I had to describe average it would truly probably be a 220 inch 5 point. But if a guy said man I'd really like a "nice" one I always say... any "non raghorn" 5 point and certainly any bull with 6 points per side regardless of anything else is a "nice one" that you'll have no regrets looking at on the wall. That's a statement from a hunter who has a place he knows like the back of his hand AND ALSO hunts new places I've never seen before.

Also... get some under your belt before worrying about all those scores! After awhile they will come at least a little easier and then maybe you'll think about passing them up. I'll say it like others have, any elk is a trophy. Boone & Crockett cows included.

Very good question & hope I helped a little.

Would you shoot this 4 pointer?

[Indian Summer]

For reference, these are official scores:
260 3/8 inches. Good fronts metiocre 3rds 4ths and 5ths. Average mass.

260.jpg (71.02 KiB) Viewed 40910 times

305. Fronts a bit bigger, 3rds a bit bigger, 4th considerably larger, better 5ths and a little more mass overall.

305.jpg (87.19 KiB) Viewed 40910 times

321 5/8. Front end similar to the 305. Waaaay bigger 3rds and 4ths. Substantial whales tail from nice 5ths/6ths, and noticeably heavier mass throughout.

321.jpg (74.26 KiB) Viewed 40910 times

[Indian Summer]

A pair of what I'd say are average bulls. Decent representative 5 points. Not huge and not raghorns. Don't know the scores on these ones. If you want to kill an elk every year you better plan on taking bulls like these home.

[bnsafe]

great answers guys. i will certainly shoot a calf if it comes by for my first elk, that wasnt really my question. i was just wondering what the "average" bull would score. in mo there are alot of 150 in deer killed each year and a very few bigger ones, but the avg is gonna be around 110 without having 2000 acres of private to hunt on. so it sounds like an avg bull will score around 210-220. i frankly dont care about scores as i would not enter one in the books anyway. just curious. as for the ivory, cant do it. im a op room nurse and that stuff doesnt bother me, but i wouldnt even pull my kids loose teeth. yuk.

[CrazyElkHunter]

Our OTC area has big bulls,320+, but they are far and few between. The reason they are there is the unit that borders it is a high draw unit and big bulls wonder over during the summer occasionally. 2 years ago, I was told by the local taxidermist, a 1st time bowhunter took a 365". Over 20 years ago I would not pass up any legal bull. Now I hold out for mature 5x5 or better until the last few days of the season, then I usually would take a fat cow and let the rag horns grow another year. I would say the average good mature bull in our area is around 250" to 280". Last 4 years, 4 bulls, my smallest was 255" and the largest was 302". Been hunting this area for 9 years and noticed most of the mature bulls are 6x5. Dry years, the horns will loose inches and wet years will increase. 2 years ago we took 2 6x6 satellite bulls that would have been nice 5x5's but it was a wet summer and growth was evident for young bulls. I am in no way a resident expert like cnelk or swede on elk, but have bowhunted elk exclusively for over 35 years as a non resident, so everything I have learned about elk is what they do during late Aug. and Sept. only.

[buglmin]

Every year we have guys that say they want to hold out for a good six, but shoot the first rag that comes running in to our calls. And yet we have some guys that have never killed an elk pass up raghorns left and right wanting something bigger. Todays DVD's on elk hunting have ruined a lot of first time elk hunters. They come out west expecting gaint six point bulls behind every tree like they see in the vidoes.
A nice, shooter bull to me is a solid 5 point, with good mass. Im not talking lil dink 5 points, skinny necks, small bodies. My biggest Colorado OTC bull is a 329" bull, although the 319" 5 point I killed in 06 was a beautiful bull... I've got a friend and Hoyt pro staffer that has killed seven 300" plus bulls since he's been hunting with us, all it takes is right time, right place. And you have to rememer that in order kill a bog bull, ya gotta let the lil ones walk away...that being said, I want to kill a spike so bad for a mount...not no lil skinny spike, but a spike with two foot horns, still in velvet, with that classic bow shape to them...

[easeup]

you are gonna pass any bull up?

...probably want to get clear with yourself on why you hunt.

[ferris bugler]

I'll shoot just about anything once it's in range, although once I hear a few bugles I have a hard time loosing an arrow at a cow. To me a 280 bull is when they start to be called big. Usually for that they have a decent whale tail at the top of their antlers. I love the look of a symmetrical 6x6.

[RockChucker30]

Todays DVD's on elk hunting have ruined a lot of first time elk hunters. They come out west expecting gaint six point bulls behind every tree like they see in the vidoes.

I agree with that completely. I think all the hunting TV shows and DVD's do is take a rare situation for most folks of a guided hunt on private land that may cost many thousands of dollars and make it seem normal.

Hunting should be about hunting, not about the size of the antlers you bring home. Honestly, elk meat is really, really good stuff and I want some whether it comes from a small bull or a big cow, or even a calf. I'm trying to feed my family from wild meat only, and that's hard to do if you don't kill anything.

[Indian Summer]

Buglmin... excellent post. All of it. TV has ruined guys. Magazines were bad enough. The thing they miss on tv is the long sweaty elkless days and the normal sized animals right! I swear some tv junkies think all elk have 6 points! lol Had a 1st time hunter from TX who said he just wanted a decent representative bull & passed up a 290 inch 6x6 at 15 yards and 3 days later said "oh well let's just go back and kill that small bull I passed the other day" Like it was easier done than said. What do you say? There are exceptions to every rule. There have been 400 inch bulls killed in the Bitterroot. I have a bowhunter client who never gets skunked. One time he killed a 300 incher in 45 minutes on the way into camp! There are also people who hit the Powerball too though. BUT... the people who do hit the Powerball might play it alot and have more than likely hit the daily number a few times along the way.

Your definition of a shooter is right on the money too. A solid 5 point bull. And... if that doesn't happen shoot a cow and let the rags grow. Perfect! First timers: any legal bull! Or a cow! Quarter an elk, pack one out, eat it, share it with friends..... now you're an elk hunter. maybe even cape it out so you are prepared for when you do cross paths with a wall hanger. Don't forget those ivories. Elk ivory rings are awesome.

My standards start with bone and work their way to meat. How fast they adjust depends mainly on how much time I have and also by my knowledge of the area I'm hunting. But the bottom line make no mistake is MEAT. If I think my chances of filling the freezer could be waning if it's brown it's down. Hunting either sex areas is just awesome. Bull hunt all bow & gun season and keep and eye on the herds & wait it out til the end of gun to go grocery shopping.

Defining why you hunt and what you want is an important thing to know before you are on the mountain. I hunt because I love to hunt and be outdoors, the mountains in particular. I also hunt for meat for sure! YES... I prefer my meat to be attached to antlers, big ones if I could pick and choose. But if I had to pick there's no question I'd rather have an empty spot on the wall than an empty freezer so there you have it.

[Indian Summer]

Ivory pendant. And some really nice ivory rings at this link along with lots of other items.

http://www.wildlifeingold.com/Page_6.html

[bnsafe]

thanks for the posts guys, once again you have hit it on the head and clarified alot for guys that dont see elk every day. i completely agree with tv and magazines ruining the experience for alot of guys, heck i would be disspointed if i dropped 5000 on a guided hunt and shot a raghorn 4x4 that i could have hunted on a diy hunt. however that same 4x4 might go on my wall if i figure it out and do it all by myself. on a side note, i completely quit bowhunting because i had killed so many deer i didnt want a doe, then i didnt want a small buck. i set out there not killing anything for awhile and it got to the point that i literally said why am i even here, the chance of a monster walking by is extremely slim. it finally drove me out of deer hunting. when i finally got back into bowhunting i shot a very small antelope and am looking at his horns as i right this and am very proud of him. i woulda shot a doe and have posted on here i would be very happy with a cow or doe mulie. sure i want the big one, but not at the price of driving myself over the edge again. dont lose the fun looking for b an c bull. (now if thats whats fun for you go for it)

[bnsafe]

oh yea, where did you get that pendant, thats cool. would love to have a necklace like that if i could get myself to get the tooth out. so how do you actually get it out and do cows have them or just bulls.

[mtnmutt]

This may help answer your questions on elk ivories.
http://forums.bowsite.com/tf/bgforums/t ... 31&forum=5

[buglmin]

Why do I hunt? Cause I love killing big, mature bulls, love knowing that once a bull is within 40 yards, Im going to kill him!! I love shooting bulls with my recurve, like it when they have no idea what hit them, have no idea whats going on. I like it when a bull suddenly tips over.
When I sight my sights on what kind of bull I want to kill, I dont settle for less then what I want. Why should I? In Utah, we constantly passed on 340" and 350" bulls, cause we knew the caliber of bulls the area held. Here in Colorado, I know the area holds 300" bulls or better, so why settle for a dink?
I get upset at the guys that will pass dinks early in the hunt, then kill one the last day. Its so important to them that they kill a bull, so on the last two days of the hunt, they kill anything. Its important to them that they kill something. Ive got a great friend and client from Dallas, hunts with a longbow, and loves hunting elk. But the thrill and experience is more important to him then killing an elk. He knows what kind of bull he wants, I know it. He has only regretted killing one bull, a good, solid 5 point, that came in and asked for the arrow. It was early in the hunt, and he said he shouldnt of ended it so soon. He is the definition of an elk hunter that lives for the hunt, not the kill.
Anymore, guys are too wrapped up in the success, the chance to see their picture on the internet or some magazine. And sad to say, these guys are willing to do whatever it takes to kill a bull. Its about bragging rights a lot these days to a lot of guys, not about the hunt or the chase...
If I dont kill a bull, then I dont kill a bull!! I dont loose sleep over unfilled tags. As long as I know that I gave it my all ,my best, thats all that matters to me, not having to put a bull on the ground to boost my ego!!

[Indian Summer]

This may help answer your questions on elk ivories.
http://forums.bowsite.com/tf/bgforums/t ... 31&forum=5

What is a nice young lady like you doing in a place like that? lolol

[sreekers]

Here is how i look at it, i buy a bull tag with the intention of killing a big one every year. My shed has a bunch off raghorns, all from otc general Wyoming units. 300 inch + bulls are there, i see them from far off every year. However, they are hard to connect with.

So this year my goal is to kill a 300 inch bull, and save my meat hunts for the later cow tags. I can buy plenty of them.

It will require restraint on my part to not kill the first, or second bull i see. However my motivation this season is less clouded by a need for meat.

[mtnmutt]

What is a nice young lady like you doing in a place like that? lolol

I never said that I was nice or young

Here is the video I found awhile ago, however, it uses knife and pliers. The stick/rock method sounds more popular
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=f ... 7CoMuCjG1s

[flyinhunter]

It depends on the area you're hunting. As others have said, a 300 inch bull is a lot bigger than most people think. I've had many hunters say they won't shoot anything but a 350+ bull and when they see the first 280 bull trot by at 50 yards they can't shoot fast enough. I have had guys pass 350 bulls, though they are far and few between.

The thing I like to keep in mind is the whole circumstances and hunter beliefs. Circumstances- how much game are we seeing? How late into the hunt are we, etc. Hunter beliefs- Trophy or Meat? Does the hunter have the legs and heart? etc.

I say, If you've never got an elk, that bull in the shoot or pass thread is a dandy first bull. But if you've been on lots of hunts and have a few elk under you then pass if you've already got something the same size. Climb the ladder of bigger bulls every year if you get to hunt every year.

It all comes down to personal choice. If you are going to be happy with a 200 inch bull then take him. If you won't be happy with a 350 bull, then don't shoot. (and find a high fence and a AZ/NM rez tag).

[Trophyhill]

im shootin any legal elk and am not gonna restrict myself, even if a cow comes by.

being a semi rookie myself (5 years now) this is a wise strategy. "don't look a gift horse in the mouth". get used to putting animals on the ground regardless of size/sex. it is a "process" and you have to start somewhere. you will have opportunities to kill big bulls if you hunt smart and experience will teach you how to hunt smart.