calling questions for you guys?

[JJ Overkill]

have you guys ever said the heck with being a smaller bull. stop playing with location bugles, little cow calls?

heres something that ive been running through my head and im going to try it aleast once this yr. im going to be the biggest, baddest bull on the hill. im going to be the herd bull, with cows around. your walking up a draw early in the morning. giving a tending bugle followed by some cow calls. do this every two hundred yards or so. if and when you happen to hear a bugle, you let that little runt have it with both barrels, big scream followed by some hard pounding grunts and raking. posture hard. if this bull you just heard is a mature bull and has never heard your bugle before he will be curious as to what this bull looks like and i have cows with me.

come into a bar room and start make moves on my wife. i dont care how big you are, i will rip your head off. same idea as above. a new bull strolls in and has girls with him and tells you to get bent. you know your the top bull, who does this guy think he is?

i have a lot more running through my head with this idea, way to much to write down.

i would like to know what your thoughts on this are.

[cnelk]

If you do that in most OTC units in Colorado you are going to have a long hunt ahead of you.

Quality units prob a different story

A smart bull will take his girl(s) and just leave the bar...

[elkmtngear]

It works sometimes....but only if you are in a bull's "comfort zone" ...80 to 100 yds max maybe. Trying that tactic from a distance is a recipe to get the bulls to herd up their cows and move out in my experience. They only fight if they have to, it's much easier for them to relocate.

[eltaco]

I pulled a bull literally from a half mile last season... saw the figure of an elk walking along the tree line threw him a bugle and he took off running right for me. Daylight was short and we didn't have much time to work. I took off towards him but quickly realized that my shooters had hunkered down (D'oh! ) by the time we regrouped the bull had closed the gap and our light was down to minutes. We were in a poor position and at a stand-still and I fell my only option was to piss this bull off to bring him the rest of the way. I gave him the nastiest challenge bugle I could muster and he tucked tail... never heard from him again.

I would have given anything for another 5-10 minutes (or more aggressive hunting partners). Even though that bull was extremely aggressive, he changed his tone drastically with my response. If you just walk into a canyon sounding like the meanest bull on the mountain, you might find yourself being the only thing left on that mountain...

[Swede]

There are two terms I rarely use when it comes to predicting what wildlife will do. Those terms are "always" and "never". I would just say for reasons mentioned above, I would not expect it to work where I hunt in Oregon. In fact I have gone in the complete opposite direction. As elkmtngear suggested you might be better to try intimidating a herd bull if you can get close to him and his cows. Where I hunt the elk react the same as cnelk's do.

[CrazyElkHunter]

I have to agree with cnelk and the others. If your in a over the counter tag unit, or just on public land, you are going to call in more hunters than elk. It will also run the elk to another zip code. I know you meen well and are trying to be aggressive, but I feel you are going in the wrong direction. Modern day pressured elk are very quiet. Stick to locating the bull and work him. My favorite thing to do is mimic the sound the bull is doing. If he only moans, you moan. If he only chuckles, you chuckle. If he is all out screaming, scream back. It really ticks them off to be mimicked. In 2007, I was working a bull for 2 friends from Mossy Oak. I located him with a low spike squeal. That bull started screaming back and forth with me til I blew my reed out. After we got the bull they told me they thought I was going to scare him off. I've run into hunters in the woods just bugling there heads off and, like the elk, I go the other direction to get away from them. That's the problem now a days with all the calling hardware on the market being overused in the woods. Not trying to step on your toes, just my advice from bowhunting elk for over 30 years.

[mongopino915]

You do not need to sound like the biggest, baddest, oldest, and most thundering sounding bull to get the message across. You can achieve the same thing but sounding smaller and younger. It is more about the meaning and attitude behind the sounds. The biggest, baddest, oldest, and most thundering sounds are reserved primary for competition stage calling.

When calling any bull , especially on public OTC land, you want to the put the odds in your favor by selecting sounds that will attract/invite both satellite and herd bull.

Yes, being the biggest/baddest bull in the mountain will work when used in aggressive attack on herd bulls but will likely steer most satellite bulls away as well as herd bulls if the distance is not in your favor.

Just my 2 cents.

[otcWill]

I suggest just the opposite of what you're thinking. Try to sound like a lil bull rounding them up and tucking tail. Move a lil ways away from the bugles while making some cow sounds and contact bugles. Do this while your partner sneaks back towards the real bull. This is a deadly tactic on any solo bull

[ElkNut1]

I have a motto, Bugle Big For Bigger Bulls. Yes, there's a time & place for any elk sound & bugling big is a timing sound as should any elk sound used by hunters.

Big bulls will bugle aggressively for a reason, hot cows, this can attract all bulls especially satellites wanting to slip in & check out the action or possible hot cows. These are known as rut fest times & can be fruitful the more aggressive hunter you are.

Big bulls are defined per area, one area can sport big bulls in the 340" plus range while others are 260"--300" big bulls for the heavily hunted units. When dealing with herd bulls consider bugling as big & as threatening as possible, why? Because when his cows are starting to show signs of estrus they get very defensive & are continually harassed with smaller bulls staying back trying to call his cows away from him & sometimes urgently! Herd bulls know dinks in the area or a bull by his sound & also know that a warning sound or tone can keep them at bay under most situations. Too, herd bulls know that the cows can take care of themselves, a cow in heat will not allow just any bull to mount her, she will push nudge & run short sprints to avoid the juniors who harass her like a teenager. (many have seen this with whitetails) But when close enough to the herd (inside 100yds is best) & you use mature bull sounds this can get the herd bulls attention, he realizes you are serious competition & you could attract his cows towards you. This can get a physical invitation from the herd bull as he realizes he must take action with this possible threat to him & his harem. Again, a timing situation!

There are other reasons to bugle big as well, does it really run bulls off & out of the country, no, but it sure can attract other elk, what runs bulls off is not handling specific situations correctly. You are seen or winded or use a location bugle instead of a challenge,or you turn to cow calling at the worst possible time, etc. Other bulls in the area do not run out of the country from a herd bull & his harem instead this is what keeps them around and pestering the group.

Sidenote, most hunters do not bugle half as big as they think they do, to rival a decent 280" class bull is not easily done, you may think in your mind you sound big but it really takes a special hunter who can muster up competitive bull sounds.

We have called in & killed countless herd bulls over the years, we do this with as big a bull sounds as we can muster along with panting, groans & guttural moans, it's all about timing & what you are trying to represent, you must think like the bull you are trying to be! It's not for everyone but for those who have confidence in it, it can prove very effective.

ElkNut1

[flystrait]

I agree with Paul on this one.

We do not sound as big from 50-100 yards out as we think we do. I have yet to beleive I can even come close to how loud and agressive a bull can really get, even if its a young bull. We hunt nothing but OTC public land in several different states and we hear the same things from hunters every year that bulls are call shy or you cant bugle them in because off some type of pressure, wolves, bears, or hunters. I totally disagree, like Paul said its all about timing and what you are saying. Have confidence in your ability to call for elk. I use a bugle 85-95% of the time, not that cow calling does not work, but again its a timing thing and every situation is different and you need to adapt. If you only have one mind set for how you are going to g after every elk your odds are drastically reduced for a successful hunt. Be flexible about your tactics and understand when and what you should say and your odds go up 10 fold.

Here is a one example of what we do:

We start on top running ridges and throw location bugles out at every fingure and canyon running out from the main ridge. We hear a bull respond, we stop wait a few minutes and listen to what the bull is saying. once we determine that, we don't call again and beline for his location to try to get within 100 yards. Once there if he is still is screaming, or even chukling i will chuckle softly. If he has cows he will usually instantly challange me back due to the distance we are away from him. I will inturn challange him right back this usually starts to prompt a reaction either at this point we will come right at us or he will position himself between us and his cows and will keep us at bay. If this happens we will quickly try to flank him and scream right over the top at this point he now will usually make a snap desision and comes in. Either way for us this results into shot opportunities with a OTC Public land hunt. This is just one example of many.

CK

[Swede]

ElkNut1"] Big bulls will bugle aggressively for a reason, hot cows, this can attract all bulls especially satellites wanting to slip in & check out the action or possible hot cows. These are known as rut fest times & can be fruitful the more aggressive hunter you are.

This seems to address the question posted. The key to it as I see is again "timing".
Every year I hear and occasionally see people hiking the ridges near me, and above a major break on a long hillside in the canyon where I hunt. Sometimes it is just one hunter sounding off location calls, but at other times it is 3 or 4 hunters together sounding like a herd. Some of these hunters are doing something very similar to what jerinmn proposes. I have no knowledge of a time it worked there. I do find that soon after that calling in the area starts the elk head to a nearby ranch and stay until the snow pushes them out. I still remember a few wears ago when I heard what sounded like a real bull calling. after awhile it was coming closer. Just a few minutes earlier I saw two separate bands of cow elk heading uphill past my stand. As I heard the herd bull, I got ready. Then all of a sudden my heart sank. I saw the bull. It was Mike Slinkard (owner of Winners Choice Bow Strings) and his partner coming up the draw. He sounded great, but the elk were heading away towards the ranch. Mike thought they likely winded him. I don't know as the two groups of elk were several minutes apart and over 100 yards from each other.
On another hunt I heard a group of about four hunters walking out a ridge off to my left. They hunted there for several days and repeated the same tactic. The one caller sounded like a bull while the others made cow sounds. Several times in the afternoon when I was back in camp they drove by me. On one occasion I talked with then a few minutes. If I remember right the one had a necklace full of cow calls. To make a long story short, they were not getting into any elk. I can't say they were running off the elk, but they were at least just wasting time. No hunter wants to waste time.
[quote="ElkNut1"] Big bulls are defined per area, one area can sport big bulls in the 340" plus range while others are 260"--300" big bulls for the heavily hunted units. When dealing with herd bulls consider bugling as big & as threatening as possible, why? Because when his cows are starting to show signs of estrus they get very defensive & are continually harassed with smaller bulls staying back trying to call his cows away from him & sometimes urgently! Herd bulls know dinks in the area or a bull by his sound & also know that a warning sound or tone can keep them at bay under most situations. Too, herd bulls know that the cows can take care of themselves, a cow in heat will not allow just any bull to mount her, she will push nudge & run short sprints to avoid the juniors who harass her like a teenager. (many have seen this with whitetails) But when close enough to the herd (inside 100yds is best) & you use mature bull sounds this can get the herd bulls attention, he realizes you are serious competition & you could attract his cows towards you. This can get a physical invitation from the herd bull as he realizes he must take action with this possible threat to him & his harem. Again, a timing situation!
Again Elknut's statement is a timing matter, but I just don't see how it addresses the question at hand very well. No offence intended, but it seems to insinuate that it is good to head out at random blowing your bugle and cow calling as jerinmn proposed. That may work somewhere still, but where I hunt those days are long gone if they ever were.

[JohnFitzgerald]

I've done something simular with a little twist. I don't do it often but it has worked.

Instead of a bull just tending his cows, we give the impression a bull is fending of an intruder while tending his cows. Breaking, stomping, screaming, and thrashing are additions we add to our calling sequence. Be prepaired because most of the bulls we've called in doing this have come in silent.

"curiosity killed the cat"

Just my 2-cents

[cnelk]

X2 Swede!

Even tho I have never met Swede, and even tho we hunt elk in different states, thousand miles apart, it is still elk hunting and by the sounds of it, our areas echo in so many ways it is scary.

I also think it would be helpful for people to watch a large herd of cattle over a period of time.

For those of us that have been around farming/ranching know what happens when the cows come into heat, how the young bulls respond, how the old bulls respond, the courtship and mating.

Domestic cattle are not far removed from wild elk....

[elkmtngear]

Domestic cattle are not far removed from wild elk....

I concur.

Two Seasons ago in the Flat Tops, we were sitting in base camp, and I got in a growling match with a big angus bull using my bugle tube. He positioned himself between me and his cows at about 35 yards, and started slinging snot, pawing up weeds, and thrashing a tree.

In retrospect, it was a very stupid thing to do, it was touch and go for a minute....I seriously thought he was going to come charging in and wreck our camp.

If he was 300 yards away on a neighboring ridge, would he have left his cows and come running in to challenge me? I doubt it. But since I was too close
for comfort, he saw red, and it was on!

Most of the really big herd bulls I've been lucky enough to witness, keep a constant inventory on their cows. They will push them ahead when moving, and they seem to always bring up the rear. They are constantly being circled by Satellite bulls, and want to take no chance on losing any of their cows.

But, on many awesome encounters, we have posed enough of a threat, where a bull responded just like that Angus. Most of these times we were inside 100 yards when we launched a verbal assault....maybe it's just coincidence

I agree, when it comes to calling....timing is key!

[JJ Overkill]

i figured i would get most of these responces. i hear what you guys are saying. that would be my first responce as well. but heres where i get the idea from.

last saturday of elk season, last yr.

i was hunting with a very seasoned elk hunter. we sarted up a hill to a bowl he had hunted before. on the way up the hill he would give a tending bugle followed up by some cow calls. nothing aggressive, exciting. just a small herd walking up the hill. once we stopped and he did the same thing but added in some raking. we didnt hear a thing, seen just as much.

we finally got to the top of the ridge and were dropping into the bowl. well my partner gave a cow call, and a bull responded with the weakest bugle i have ever heard. i started towards the bull and told him i was going to cut the distance in half. my partner put the breaks on me FAST. he said the bull is right there. sure enough i started to see movment it was a cow then another, and then antlers. i couldnt get a shot at the bull the wind shifted on us and the cows winded up. they took off but the bull stuck around for about 45 sec and trotted off to the cows. IF the bull had stepped into the clearing he would have been at 45yds.

we were close enough to this herd that i know they heard us on the way up. if the bull had been out farther im not sure how my partner would have called. but i know he is a very aggresive hunter.

so this is what gave me the idea for this type of calling i have asked about.

my partner got a good look at this bull and put him in the 290 to 320" range. he didnt have a good shot and let him walk. this was on a otc area

[Swede]

It sounds like the bull you came upon was over on the other side of the ridge and did not hear your friend's cow calls and tending bugles. They did not see, hear or smell you at first, so I would not use that as a basis for any future calling plan. A question to consider is do you think this 290-320 class bull would come and serve up his cows to the "biggest, baddest bull on the hill"?
If the wind had been in your favor, when you were close, it could have been an opportunity to try one of Elknut's "challenge" bugles.

[JohnFitzgerald]

+1 on Swede's last post.

In my opinion, the calling sequence you initially describe should be used in a cold calling setup. Props to you for thinking outside the box. Adapting your hunting strategies and calling sequences will pay off. Keep up it up!

Once again, just my 2-cents!

[WapitiTalk1]

Situation, time of day (is the bull standing in the early morning or late evening rutting ground and is he close to where the cows are gonna feed and stay put for a bit, is he moving his girls to or from bed and more often than not does not want to play during transit as the fairer sex is steadfast on their path to bed or chow, is he in a bedding area and will not leave the close proximity of his cows until you're in his kitchen, or is he a lone bull that will run you over if he hears what he perceives as a new bull with chicks to come and try a steal from), what the bull is doing/saying (or not doing/saying), how close you are, etc., etc., etc. Timing of your sounds is paramount. I think it was flystrait who said most of us cannot sound remotely like a big bull (although we may think we do in the calm silence of the elk woods). I sound "huge" to myself but no so huge when I'm humbled by a mature herd bull screaming back at me 30 yards away. So many things to consider about the type of sounds you make to be effective. Rambling a bit I know but the sounds we make that reap the most bang for the buck are the sounds that are timed correctly, sound relatively real, and evoke the "emotional response" desired from the wapiti in question. Many times a well placed/timed scream from a young whipper snapper will produce the desired result. Elknut's patented threat levels are something to seriously put into one's arsenal. Nothing will get the dander up on a big boy quicker than an dang intruder hooking one of my cows (the bar scene as you mentioned).. Cool thread for sure..

[Huntography]

Ditto @elkntngear.

We had a similar situation last fall in Idaho. I think we might have been too aggressive in our back and forth growls with a bull who was pushing his cows.

A fun yet enjoyable learning experience for sure.

- Rudy

[Glacier Country]

Well, I have to say that I think that ElkNut1 hit the nail on the head! Flystrait posted a scenario similar to what we do... I grew up listening to guys tell elk hunting stories in Big Dan's Bow shop here in NW MT. You may have heard of him on another hunting site. He is a legend! He has called in and killed over 50 bulls by himself. He once told me that you can"t sound too big. He puts the elk in the same "Cookie Cutter situations" time and again. He says the same thing to them and they react the same. He is an aggressive BUGLER. I have called in and killed bulls by sounding like a small bull, cow calling and sounding like the biggest bull on the Mountain! The key as others have said before is to paint a picture in the bulls mind as to the situation that YOU want the bull to believe.Is he an Aggressive herd bull?? What is the TONE of his bugle. What did he tell you? IS today he a lover and takes the girls and runs? Is he an aggressive Bull that tells you he is ready to kick your butt. I do cow call some times. Dan NEVER does! He told me you want to shoot little ones?? keep on Cow calling.
Your personal past experience, and confidence in calling will dictate what you do. How well you can call also dictates to some extent What you can do.I am not afraid to sound big. I am not afraid to make a bull believe that a smaller bull is making off with a cow either. The amount of calling that bulls do can be hindered by pressure, for sure.
I did this bugle at this bull ( 265 ish class 5x5). He stopped 11 steps from my partner. He saw Larry draw and the standoff lasted 4 minutes with Larry at full draw. Larry was maybe 20 yards from me. I am the first to admit I do not have all the answers when it comes to elk. I have made some things work successfully in enough situations to trust my experience and use these Cookie Cutter principles over and over. ----> JMO
I used a call to make this bugle that I call Troy's Secret Weapon.

Troy Glacier Country Hunting Calls Site sponsor

[Glacier Country]

Sometimes, I don't sound too big. I was using an Orange Enrager on this bull. I just used a pestering bugle and talked over the top of him. He didn't like that! I called this bull in 5 times in 1 morning. I had already shot one this was just for fun.


Troy Glacier Country Hunting Calls

[ElkNut1]

I feel most who are against bugling in general as their means of calling elk to them once located just haven't been very successful at it. That is where the issue lies here, not can it be done or not! As swede recalls a couple instances he relates where hunters were bugling elk look at what happened as to why it went sour & the elk left the area. It wasn't the bugling at all, the hunters were spotted or smelled that pushed the elk out.

In nearly every instance when I hear things like this & yes in our elk hunting areas as well, it's not the bulls bugle that pushes elk, it could be a hunters use of the sounds or other issue of seen or smelled. We too hunt OTC areas that are full of hunters like the rest of you yet we call in & kill elk every year with bull sounds. Yes, cow sounds are incorporated as well at times depending on the encounter.

As long as jerimin is hunting areas more secluded where he's not attracting hunters & the elk in the area are not winding him or seeing him he's got a fair chance at calling to these elk. To say I would do things exactly as he writes is neither here or there because things are not all the same per encounter. I'm sure he too would need to adjust a few things as well as responses or approach from elk started happening. With his original post & his way of approaching the area & calling he will most likely call in satellite bulls first, they are the most curious as well as cows & spikes. To attract herd bulls this way to his position would be very low odds.

Bugling should be thought more of locating/finding the elk, then moving on them fast once found to get position & work them according to their aggressive or non aggressive nature for that day. You cannot be too aggressive everyday or non aggressive everyday & expect good results. Fit In!

I can see by many of these posts that so many have a different definition as to what Bugling really is & when it's needed most, this is where the discrepancy lies! Yes, there are many effective ways to hunt elk, bugling or bull sounds is just another way! It's an art which most have not mastered. Sorta like treestand hunting them!

ElkNut1

[>>>---WW---->]

Troy: I also know Danny (big Dan) fairly well. He likes to hunt only big bulls. And he doesn't like cow calls. His bugles are just down right evil, wicked, mean, and nasty. Nothing pretty or classic sounding about them. But you can't argue with success.

Next time you see him, tell him I said HI! No doubt he'll tell you about the big halibut I caught.

[Swede]

I want to thank Jerimin for sticking out his neck so to speak, and starting this thread. It is conversations like this that can advance hunters understanding of elk hunting, and in this case calling. I think we are making progress in this conversation, but I still have a couple questions. Remember Jerimin is hiking up the draw in the early morning making cow calls and a tending bugle every two hundred yards.
I agree with Paul that Jerimin could call in a satellite bull. I have done similar things to what Jerimin proposes and have called in smaller bulls. The problem is that they come in quiet and on the run. I have never been able to get one before they know what is up. I have just educated another bull. I just have no idea what a blast from "both barrels" is supposed to do for the bull that calls from way out in the forest.

Elknut: "Bugling should be thought more of locating/finding the elk, then moving on them fast once found to get position & work them according to their aggressive or non aggressive nature for that day. You cannot be too aggressive everyday or non aggressive everyday & expect good results. Fit In!"

I agree 100% with the Elknut quote. I just don't see how Jerimin's plan works well or for that matter how fits Paul's general principle. His plan seems to fit along the lines of the group of hunters I described above who sounded like some elk moving through the forest.

I don't want to be defensive, about Paul's comment about being against bugling. I am probably one of the more outspoken critics of elk callers on this site or any other for that matter. I am not against calling per se. I just hate the indiscriminate noise that ends up scaring off the elk. I hear a lot more of that than effective calling in my neck of the woods. I have time and time again recommended for hunters to get Paul's DVDs and Playbook. Learn to call well then go out and bugle. I actually enjoy hearing knowledgeable hunters work their craft. And Jerimin, I applaud your curiosity and desire to experiment. My thanks for starting this conversation. I am also glad you are doing it in Colorado and not next to my tree stand.

[ElkNut1]

swede, i like the idea of jeremin trying to be creative, you know what I mean? He's not just sitting back waiting for something good to happen. There's no doubt this isn't something I'd use or recommend using everyday of the month of Sept. But to to do this for reasons he mentions is a good thinking outside the box strategy. I believe from his comments that he'd be happy with a 5 point, he's not necessarily after the herd bull in the area, if he came in that would just be a bonus. If he did this during pre rut times he would have bulls show up quiet if at all. His strategy would be best after the 12th.-- He can correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe this is something he plans on doing daily? As he experiments with his new found ways he'll make adjustments & polish things up a bit, point is he's willing to put forth an effort to see what works & what doesn't, this is how we all learn.

swede, from your comments about bugling for bulls in general I would say that you are not a big caller anyway? That's cool it's not for everyone. I say this because you seem to have it in your mind that most calling/bugling just educates or runs bulls/elk away. This does happen, meaning elk will vacate an area if buggered but you cannot always blame the bugling, it's the hunter who is responsible to represent the species correctly & use sounds at the right time per encounter. Equally as important is understanding the time of day that bugling is being done by the hunter or the elk. All these things play a huge part in a hunter successfully calling in or attracting elk.

Folks, a Bugle is a powerful tool as is a Gun, use them properly & they can be an asset to your hunt, abuse their intended use & things can go bad.

Jeremin, go for it & report back! (grin)

ElkNut1

[flystrait]

[quote="ElkNut1"]
A Bugle is a powerful tool as is a Gun, use them properly & they can be an asset to your hunt, abuse their intended use & things can go bad.


This is a great statement!

[ElkNut1]

Jeremin, as a sidenote of info for you, what you are considering in your calling sequence is very close to a "Breeding Sequence" -- This is a highly effective method to use once you receive a bugle response in an area. It doesn't matter if it's one bulls response or multiple bull responses. I say "once you receive a response" because you now know elk are there! Do your best to get within 175yds & find a good setup spot to imitate this breeding sequence, this way elk come your way & you can catch their movement if they come in silent. Too, a setup gives you the best odds of a close encounter. If you continue to move & call the whole time elk can come in behind you as you move & wind you or see your movement, this is not good so remove it from the equation by setting up where you force elk to come in from the sides or in front. You can now defend this spot effectively.

Keep a large opening behind you or severe obstructions that force elk to come in the other 3 directions. Good Luck, we've used this with success many times!

ElkNut1

[JJ Overkill]

great responces guys, im loving it.

swede both barrels, a scream followed by grunts, huffs, racking, stomping. everything i can do to make a bull think i want him gone. hes not welcome in my corner of the "bar"

as paul mentioned i figured this type of calling would bring in satalites before a big bull, but who knows whats in the area. if my son and i draw a tag in the area i put in for this yr i will be giving this idea a try. ive been in there before and know some areas i wont be doing this. elk presents could be very high. this idea, im keeping for the draws im not so familar with. i dont want to hit the same draws everyday. i will be out scouting and looking for good areas to put this to the test. as paul mentioned this idea will be tried 20th of sept. unless we tag out before hand.

again as paul mentioned, once i get a responce ill be sending my son towards the bull, say 50-75yds. i will drop back and continue to to call, who knows where the calling will go from there. i might have to throw out some excited cow calls. im sure as mentioned before the situation WILL dictate what i do next.

what im thinking is, make my calls and hang tight for awhile 10-15 min walk up 200-300yds and repeat.

thanks to everyone, i have read pauls play book and watched his dvds. i feel i have learned a lot from this as well.

[JohnFitzgerald]

Great thinking jerinmn! But be care you don't cookie cut every situation. Not that I'm saying you will.

I'd advise interpreting what type of "bugle" response you get. Herd bull or satellite? Aggressive or invitation? This will determine your next play!

[ElkNut1]

Jeremin, now you're talking bud!!! That's a truly aggressive mindset & technique to use, I feel you are thinking it out well, I'm going to offer up another tip here that we've used & kicks butt at the time of your hunt & calling sequence. First off get within that 175yd distance to the bugling bull/bulls the closer the better without being seen or winded. Prepare to stay 20 min, 10 min is too short. The caller who is staying will do the short bugle screams & chuckling, this sound shows he's keeping contact & control of his cows & they are restless, you will imitate 1 or 2 cows as well. When you've found a good setup have both of you call together, yes your son can chime in with a few normal & excited cow calls too for about a minute or so from that setup spot, stomp around & thrash brush break limbs painting a picture in other elks mind that there is rutting action happening & the bull (you) is having a tough time managing his few cows.

During this sequence you will find these real bulls will bugle back to you out of excitement. After that one --two minute of both of you calling with bugling & cow calls now send the shooter (your son) ahead cow calling very excitedly & whiny going at one of the bulls bugling back. (preferably the biggest sounding one) Have him stick to cover best he can as he calls & goes right at the real bull, he needs to really scan the area for movement or elk as he moves forward calling this way. Your son will really attract the bulls this way as she/he leaves her original group showing interest in these other bulls. All the while you keep bugling & chuckling trying to call her back & warn the other bulls to stay back. This method kicks butt on rutting/bugling bulls!!! This is a true type breeding sequence that is a real life situation that happens regularly at your time frame. Cows leave all the time choosing one bull or group for another. This is making it real.

We've taken bulls with this exact sequence & one day we took 2 bulls within minutes with this exact method! The caller should stay alert as well because bulls can slip in from any direction, many times they're silent in doing so.

ElkNut1

[JohnFitzgerald]

Follow up on Paul's last post.

Make sure you stick to cover when moving in.

A few years back, one of my shooters learned this the hard way! There's nothing worse than having a 300+ class bull catch you in the open.

[msd1228]

I've called in WAY more bulls during blind calling setup by being absolutely full blown, all out aggressive with bugling, stomping, smashing baseball bat size sticks across trees, incorporating VERY whiny and distressed cow calls etc, than I have just sitting back and cow calling. I'll usually toss a couple of smaller bugles in the middle as well - just trying to create the scene where the big boy is being harassed and having his cows hooked away by satellites. I've called bulls in, and had them become vocal, well into October doing that. Its also been VERY effective for me when I've been able to get a bull to answer a locator but can't get him to budge with cow calling alone. I find they typically come in quiet in terms of not calling back at that point, but they are in a big enough hurry that you can typically hear them smashing through the bush on the way. That being said, I've never called in a herd bull doing that, but hey, not everyone is looking for the biggest bull on the hill, and in heavily pressured areas a bull is a bull is a bull for the most part.

Like I said, I've called in a TON of bulls doing this, I've put a lot of bulls right in peoples laps doing this, and I'll certainly continue to do this in the heavily pressured areas I usually hunt.

[elkmtngear]

Follow up on Paul's last post.

Make sure you stick to cover when moving in.

A few years back, one of my shooters learned this the hard way! There's nothing worse than having a 300+ class bull catch you in the open.

John,
Therein lies the beauty of the SLIP System decoy/blind. It allows you to move into and around elk when necessary.

Not saying you won't get pinned down...but it does allow much more freedom of movement.

[JJ Overkill]

paul i like that idea, ive come to the conclusion that elk seasons are to short to try everything one thinks of, just like the period between chasing elk is way to long.

i will definately keep this thread in mind this summer, very good info and sound advise. thanks to everyone who got in on this. dont be suprised if you see me put it back on top if i think of something else to throw in.

[Trophyhill]

Jeremy, doing as you describe in your op nearly led to the demise of a giant herd bull for me this past season the first week of September.

Edit. i was within 75 yards on this occasion

[>>>---WW---->]

(what im thinking is, make my calls and hang tight for awhile 10-15 min walk up 200-300yds and repeat.)


I disagree with the statement above. When challenging a bull with the big mean/nasty stuff and you can walk up another 200-300 yards and try it again if nothing happens, chances are, you were too far out to try it in the first place.

Experience tells me that when you are far out, they will answer you all morning long until they get tired of listening to you. Once you have them located, you need to shut up and move within that 200 yards and probably even closer before you hit him with the nasty stuff. When you are this close, he is either going to charge in on you or turn chicken and run. Either way it beats a Mexican standoff at long range!

[elkmtngear]

X2 Bill

[JJ Overkill]

(what im thinking is, make my calls and hang tight for awhile 10-15 min walk up 200-300yds and repeat.)


I disagree with the statement above. When challenging a bull with the big mean/nasty stuff and you can walk up another 200-300 yards and try it again if nothing happens, chances are, you were too far out to try it in the first place.

i dont plan on using big sounds every 200-300yds. thats were the herd sounds will be used, tending bugles and calm cow sounds. once i get a response than get into the hard hitting stuff. trying to pant the picture i dont wont to be bothered buy another bull

[Glacier Country]

WW is correct,about being close. You have got to be close before you get super aggressive with your Bugles. 125 yards or less. IMO You have to be close enough that when you YELL (Bugle) at him he makes the choice to attack you to run you off. He will hit a very high pitch bugle and scream at you and come trotting to you. The key is you have to be close. Sure I have had bulls come trotting from 500 + yards but that is the exception to the rule. Those bulls would have run you over if you scream at them from 100 yards. --->


Troy Owner Glacier Country Hunting Calls

[Swede]

heres something that ive been running through my head and im going to try it aleast once this yr. im going to be the biggest, baddest bull on the hill. im going to be the herd bull, with cows around. your walking up a draw early in the morning. giving a tending bugle followed by some cow calls. do this every two hundred yards or so. if and when you happen to hear a bugle, you let that little runt have it with both barrels, big scream followed by some hard pounding grunts and raking. posture hard. if this bull you just heard is a mature bull and has never heard your bugle before he will be curious as to what this bull looks like and i have cows with me.

I have been following this thread with interest, but was planned to only be a lurker on it. I have changed my mind as I see another teaching point. It is something I believe is especially useful for newer elk hunters.

In response to the initial inquiry that preceded the above quote, there were several cautionary posts. Then there were several posts encouraging jerinmn to go for it. One post said it was good to think outside the box. Now the later posts are essentially putting side boards and changes to the original plan. In essence the box is being reconstructed.

This has got me to thinking about "the box". Where did it come from? Who should go outside it and when? Is a box even good?

As I am sure several of the seniors on this site remember, for a long time there was no box for elk hunters, and that was especially true of bow hunters. There was hardly so much as a drift fence to guide you. Mostly what we knew applied equally well to deer or other game. We heard about calling, but that amounted to just occasionally blowing a little high pitched flute. Somewhere along the line some savvy hunters started adapting turkey calls and soon we started seeing the faintest glimpses of a box. There were some very basic strategies discussed. When I started, I knew of no magazines even dedicated to bow hunting. I think Bow Hunter may have been in its infancy. There were few books, and they were mostly just "me & Joe" stories.

For years I struggled to try to understand how I could be more effective as a bow hunter. I was a two season hunter at first and the rifle was my go to weapon, but I wanted to be a bow hunter. It took years to make enough improvement to my bow hunting skill, to be half as good as anyone who puts in a reasonable effort today can be. Remember there was no box. We were always outside. I tried to make one from what I had learned or thought I had, so that my son and his friend would not have to start from scratch. That first box was about a 35 page document developed on a early 90s computer with MSDOS.
Since then, there have been a lot of decent books written, a few great ones that can really help hunters. Also there have been countless magazine articles written and videos made. Beyond that, now the internet has sites like this ,where we can come together and exchange valuable insights and observations. Now we have a great framework of a box filled with goodies. A few of the suggestions may need to be culled, but for the most part we are in a new age of hunting. There is no reason today for a new hunter to go through what I and many others went through. The box does not need to be reinvented. Thanks to people like Elknut anyone with $20 can, and should know on day one, what I did not understand after 20 years hunting and working in the elk woods.
So am I saying, "don't go outside the box"? No, but I am saying the box has been formed on solid ground and there are reasons for where the sideboards are. My recommendation to all relatively new elk hunters is to learn to operate in the box first. As you progress, then move outside with caution. As you develop you hunting skills, you may want to try new things. But know and understand your experiment and if it is not working, get back in the box. Just my thought.

[JJ Overkill]

this thread has morphed almost into a hunting situation. as such everyone has there own opinion of how to find or locate elk, how to proceed after finding them. i feel this is a great topic, it has brought out some great ideas and good stories from the "senior hunters". this thread has giving me some very good insight for this up coming yr.

this kind of reminds me of something i learn in my late teens,ill try to make this short.

i needed to change a head gasket in my truck, well sure enough i broke off two bolts in the block. my dad walked up and started to tell me how to fix it. i wasnt in a reciving mood and was disrespectfull. my dad just walked away and didnt say a thing to me. i found this very odd. a week went by and i was still struggling to get the broken bolts out. i swallowed my pride and ask the old man for help. in about twenty min we had the bolts out. i looked at him and asked why didnt you tell me this last week. he looked at me and said i tried but last week you were smarter than me.

im not trying to reinvent the wheel here, just modify the tread pattern a little perhaps. im sure i fall on my face a few times regaurdless of what i read on here. but its all in the learning curve. i appretiate you guys helping make the curve a little more manageable.

now back to topic. i beleve this idea has a place in my arsonal, im not saying to use it everyday for every situation but i have a feeling it will bring in elk. maybe not herd bulls but it will bring in satalites. people keep mentioning a bull at three hundred yards might tuck tail and leave or just turn into a screaming match, but herd bulls do get harassed by smaller bulls trying to hook a cow. why not try to mimic that and tell the smaller bulls to back off. i love hearing people say that big bull sounds scare the smaller bulls. maybe it does to a point but it will also bring them in. we imitate smaller bull to get a herd bulls reaction, why not imitate a herd bull to put a small bull on the ground. heres another thing i just thought of. trying to sound like a small herd could also pull in a lone cow or maybe two.

i just trying to get my son and myself our first elk. to quote the great mike tyson everyone has a game plan for a fight, until they get hit!

thanks again guys.

[ElkNut1]

OK, folks, you cannot & do not need to work Satellite bulls the same as herd bulls! The setups with the aggressive calling at a distance will lure in Satellites at a higher rate of odds over herd bulls, close as in 125yds is not needed, it's nice to be as close as is possible but the 200yd range will still work with no problem. The reasons for staying back is because terrain is not thick enough to get much closer or setup positioning is best further out, too, most hunters focus on the bugling they are hearing but pay little attention to the possibility that there are other bulls or elk around that may be closer to them. so don't be so focused on the distant elk & let your guard down. Do your calling from very good setup spots & get as close as possible!

If we are after the herd bull our tactics would change entirely. You MUST go to the bull that has a herd/harem. This is where close is needed, to kill or have a high success at close encounters with herd bulls you must pose a direct threat to HIM or his HAREM when using specific sounds! The other way is to go right at the herd bull if using cow sounds & give him exactly what he is asking you to do as he bugles or chuckles you to join the group!

Jerimins original post in setting up & doing his calling sequence, (breeding sequence) is a very good one with slight modifications.Yes, he's most likely going to draw in Satellite bulls first, but he says that's fine with him. So let's not be presumptuous in thinking one method works for both types of bulls. Yes, anything is possible but direct your calling & up your odds in close encounters by understanding which type of bull you are working, do not treat them the same in every instance or else you will bump lots more bulls than you call in!

ElkNut1

[Swede]

I think this has been on of the most informative and educational threads to develop on this site. Again we can see different hunters coming together to discuss and even debate a subject in a respectful manner. It is unfortunate that all sites have not been managed that way. Jerinmn, your question is an honest effort to gain insight. I like your analogy of working as a mechanic on your engine. I understand you get a lot of advise and sometimes it can be confusing. I never felt like your dad did when he left you to your own to remove the head bolts. Rather, I want to see how this plan turns out.

[JohnFitzgerald]

Swede - I've always liked how you bring up interesting point-of-views. For some, inside is their comfort zone while others are able to go outside the box. To each their own. The reason we have great tactics is because of those willing to try something new.

Jerinmn - As I stated in my previous posts. Soak in all the information you can. Understanding elk language and habits should be the foundation in your tactics. I stated earlier and Paul just stated it, work Satellites and Herd bulls differently. Thinking outside the box can lead to success. But if you think it wrong, it can also be the reason for failure. Are you a gambling man? I am!

Man I love threads like this one. Great conversation without any arguing!

[mongopino915]

We do use two bulls bugling at each other with some excited cow sounds (i.e. rut mating mutual), ranging in tone/intensity from soft locating bugles to down right in your face challenge scream and lip-brawling/display bugling. We will either send the elk to the next county or attract the less interested elk within hearing range. Desperate mean calls for desperate measure and it can be very productive, just watch for other hunters coming in with arrow nocked.