Diaphragm Calls

[OS hunter]

Ok I need some help! I've been trying to learn to use a diaphragm call, but haven't been making very good progress by my standards. So far I've tried most all the Primos calls and a Carlton supreme cow. I haven't been able to find a good video or resource on how the call should properly fit in your mouth. From what I've gathered it should be tight to the top of my mouth, but the only call that has done this is the mini sonic dome. Am I on the right path, or am I completely off base? I really want to master elk calling, but am starting to get frustrated with my lack of progress.

[bowhunterty]

Check out Elknuts DVD on how to use them.

[OS hunter]

Check out Elknuts DVD on how to use them.

Good call, I have several of the the Elknut DVDs but didn't see the mouth reed DVD. Thanks

[WapitiTalk1]

OS hunter.. Here's a couple of resources for you buddy. Both Mr. Elknut and Rockie Jacobsen go into some pretty detailed instruction on the "how to's" of using diaphrams. Welcome to the addiction ..

Edit.. forgot to add the video links..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACdfZS4uUBs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRXE3klyQOk

[Indian Summer]

If it makes you feel any better.... I couldn't call in a mouse with a sonic dome.

0nce you find the right call for you it will be like a light bulb coming on. Have you tried a Primos Imperial Plate? No plastic dome but just a little tab above the reed. Everyone has a different palate but that one is very easy to use for me.

Don't try to place it too far back and up high in the roof of your mouth. It'll be hard to work the reed with the tip of your tounge and may also trigger a gag reflex. Instead put your tounge on the reed and push it toward the front of your mouth a bit. If you were saying the letter S would your tounge be touching the roof of your mouth? Not really... a little maybe but mostly its just behind your front teeth. Think like that for a minute and if it doesn't work try the Imperial Plate which is the red one.

Then post your results in detail and we'll go from there.

Hope that helps. It can be hard to explain. I know it can be frustrating but it will all come tgether for you once you are on the right track. I swear.

[ElkNut1]

Welcome to the Forum!

Learning to use a mouth reed takes persistent practice, do not give up too easily, even if it seems a bit difficult at first! Make sure you're using the right tool for the job here. You want to start with a light tensioned single reed latex mouth reed or a very light tensioned 1 1/2 layered latex reed as a beginner, no double reeds here or very tight stretched latex reeds, they're not user friendly & are for more experienced callers. If using Palate Plate style calls with a metal or plastic dome the dome faces the roof of your mouth & latex can then be accessed by your tongue. You want to start with cow sounds first, soft ones at that, then you will graduate to louder & longer tones as you master the small ones. Bugles will come or stem from your cow sounds. A bugle is no more than a lengthened out cow mew where you would add more air & a bit more tension on the latex reed itself with your tongue. These bugles are reserved for AFTER you master cow sounds. You want to achieve one goal before you move on to the next one!

To start, do Not Over Blow with excessive air with reed in place! This is very common for new ones to do so, do your best to control your air output as if you were just breathing the air out past the diaphragm. Make sure you have a 100% seal where only the tag of the call is up against the roof of your mouth, not the whole call, you must dam the air up so all air passes between bottom of latex & top of your tongue. If tag surrounding the horseshoe frame is stiff, then chew/nibble on the tag & saliva it up a bit, to soften it with your front teeth in a nibbling action as you hold the main frame with your fingers. This will make the tag pliable & will now mold easily to your palate. The open end part of the latex reed of the call itself should be where back of top teeth on the inside meet gum line to the small ledge a bit higher up but shy of roof of mouth, you do no want it too far back or too high up in the roof of your mouth, this will help prevent gagging & tickling. It is not held with your teeth in a biting motion at all, it merely will fit snugly into place near back of top teeth near that ridge & loose tag part of reed sealed in roof of mouth, the call will be in a 20deg angle when positioned correctly, not horizontal. Adjust the reed in small increments front or back from there for best position per individual, make sure you have it sealed or you'll get a hissing sound, that shows air is getting over the top of mouth reed tag & escaping just under your pallet & tag!

Now take the tip portion of your tongue & drop it down to where it touches in the area of the inside of your bottom teeth & gum line, notice that by doing this the center part of your tongue slightly arches up, that's the point of contact to use against the latex reed, now use that middle portion of your tongue to contact mouth reed in the middle portion of the latex not the end of the latex. It's OK to allow a good portion or flat part of your tongue to touch latex, just don't push too hard. To start getting a sound out of your call, say shhhh as you apply light pressure on latex with flat part or center of tongue. For more elk like sounds, now put a bit more tension on the latex & slowly increase airflow in a controlled manner. For cow sounds only light tongue pressure is needed with controlled air flow such as breathing type air. Don't push the air or force it out, avoid quick bursts of air for these starter sounds! Play with tongue tension for best sound quality, & make sure your tongue is salivated for slickness & you'll notice less tickling sensations!

Do your best to keep solid contact with tongue on reed when making sounds, this can change a bit for more nasally cow sounds, then you would slide tongue just off latex or near end of it to flutter latex & create the needed vibration of latex to get the nasal effect that a cow will use at times! For all bugles & screams you do not want your tongue slipping off front of reed, you will lose major volume there if you do! See how this info works for you! But, perfect your cow sounds first before moving on, or being concerned with bugling! This should help head you in the right direction.

If this info helps you out to get reasonable sounds after a bit of practice & you'd like to further your progress & education, then you may like to consider a DVD we have out called "Mastering The Mouth Reed" It will go into step by step proper use of mouth reeds. In addition to this it will share with you how to make the many sounds that both cows & bulls make, & there's quite a few of them, including those difficult grunts & chuckles.

ElkNut1

[Lefty]

0nce you find the right call for you it will be like a light bulb coming on. Have you tried a Primos Imperial Plate? No plastic dome but just a little tab above the reed. Everyone has a different palate but that one is very easy to use for me.

I found that the Primos calls with the raised palate plate worked for me also. I can work domes too but find them uncomfatable in my mouth. A friend will only use Primos Domes, another will only use Carlsons
I stated with Jacobsens and Carlsons,.. I still pull them out but just am not very successfull at making the right sounds

[welka]

As mentioned by several, everyone's palate is different and hence certain diaphragms work for some and not for others. However, if you look at posts from this site and others, you will find that several are mentioned often. See Elknut's store for the green tormenter (not sure if still called that) and mellow yellow diaphragm. Hard to not make a good call with them. Lots of good reed calls out there that are easy to use (just hard to stop a bull at full draw and a reed in your pocket!) Good luck.

[ELKrazy]

Aside from all the great advice you already got, I would simply remind you to stick with it and even though it is about the fit of the call, I don't think you need to go crazy buying a bunch. Once the tape gets broken in, you can get most to mold to your palate.

The only time you'll have a problem is when they are too small. I know personally that I can use just about any diaphragm call, except smaller tape ones. If I get one too small, they start leaking air and I can't get a seal.

I should add that I am brand new to elk calling, but have been using diaphragm calls for turkeys and predators for at least 17 years, so picking up elk was not difficult. I have noticed that the diaphragm design is a bit more critical for some elk sounds as opposed to turkeys and preds, where I can pick up just about any diaphragm and make it sound like a turkey or rabbit or whatnot.

I had bought the Elk Herd 4 from Bugling Bulls Game calls (sorry elknut). So far for softer cow/calf sounds, I like "the remedy". For high pitched bull screams I like the herd master tone top. The Mini Master is too small for my mouth, however, I can make the most hollow sounding ultra-raspy turkey calls with it.... I can get it to sound like a box call. I will definitely be carrying it this Spring. I gave my brother the Raging Bull call so I don't know what it is like and he's actually brand new to diaphragm calling. He's picking it up pretty fast though.

My advice is just keep doing it until you eventually go insane or it sounds good. On the way to work, in the house (preferably when no one is home) and whenever else you can.

You don't need to use the tube either, just practice without it until you have good control. Practice hitting notes and holding them, practice changing pitches.

I actually "envision" the animal I am pretending to be. I try to get into "character". If I'm a hen waking up and getting ready to fly down, I picture myself waking up and getting ready to fly down and meet my friends. If I'm a dying rabbit, I imagine myself being eaten alive by something. If I'm a bull elk, I imagine thinking my GF is getting too far away and I need to call her back.

That may sound ridiculous, but it absolutely helps. EMOTION! You need to add it in...just imagine you are the animal and what you're trying to say.

This also goes along with this. Don't hold back. (don't overblow) By that I mean....Don't be self-conscious of how it sounds, or think it sounds bad. It's like singing. I sing and play guitar...If for a second I get self-concsious, I lose confidence and will start to mess up. You have to just let your freak flag fly! LOL....If it sounds bad, keep it up until it sounds good. Some will pick it up faster than others, but don't give up.

Finally, RECORD yourself. Listen back to it and you will probably figure out what needs work. Once you're to the point you can no longer critique your own recordings, let the guys here hear it (if you can handle critiques). They will be able to help even more.

Best of luck man!