Diaphragm Calls - Fitting and Positioning

[Vanish]

I've got a few different Bugling Bulls' diaphragm and I can make some good cow calls with the Raging Bull especially. However, my problem is that after 3-6 calls the diaphragm will start to tip sideways. I have a very tall and narrow roof of my mouth, as well as still have my upper wisdom teeth. I feel like possibly the aluminum part of the call is too wide to stay "stuck" in position as I blow across it. The little dome can't come anywhere close to hitting the roof of my mouth even when the aluminum is pressed as far up as it can go. While trying to hold a note, I can literally feel the diaphragm very slowly slide sideways until finally it hits my teeth and stops making sound.

So, should I look for a smaller call, or do I just need practice? Also, I've read about turkey diaphragms, and several sources suggest that you need to slightly bend the aluminum part of the call to fit your mouth. They also warn this might ruin some calls. I definitely don't want to try this yet!

[ElkNut1]

Vanish, you have the mouth reed in the wrong spot! It does not go in the roof of your mouth! Please go to the ElkNut Video Clips Forum above & click on Mouth Reed Use, watch it very carefully a couple of times & it should answer your questions! If not please let us know?

ElkNut1

[Flintlocker]

Vanish, you have the mouth reed in the wrong spot! It does not go in the roof of your mouth!
ElkNut1

Meaning right behind your front teeth instead of deeper in your mouth? Paul, is that what you are referring to?

[ElkNut1]

Flintlocker, yes! Watch the short clip & you will see exactly how I explain & show ones the right position! Thanks!

ElkNut1

[Vanish]

Well, thank you for the video. Oddly, I had a diagram originally that showed to position it farther back and use the middle of your toungue, not the tip.

Unfortunately, the metal part doesn't even fit (metal too wide) between my teeth where you describe in the video (behind the ridge behing your front teeth).

[erictski]

Just keep trying different locations in your mouth.

My dad and i both have bugling bulls reeds...he likes his really far forward but i like mine just a bit farther back. Not as far back as a turkey call but somewhere in the middle of all the way forward.

each mouth is a bit different so just play around and eventually you will find a sweet spot that seems to allow you to make sounds very easily.

Also i like to have the call in one spot for bugling and another for cow calling...just works best for me.

[>>>---WW---->]

Honestly guys, I can get good sounds out of my call even if I place it catycornered at about a 45 degree angle in my mouth when just playing around with it. But right behind my front teeth with my tongue forward and the tip of it almost against my bottom teeth is my normal position. Then flexing my tongue like you you would flex your bicep on the reed. Say "Shhhhhhhhh" and think about what your tongue is actually doing when you say it. The middle of it should arch up toward the roof of your mouth. That's exactly what you want it to do on a diaphram call. That is how it works for me anyhow. The pressure comes from the middle of the tongue as it arches upward, not from the tip of my tongue. Give it a try and see what happens.

I really feel the biggest mistake most people make is trying too hard. Too much air and too much tongue pressure. I know everyones palate is different and placement can be an issue to alot of guys. So find that sweet spot that works for you and try to ease up on the air and tongue pressure.

Using a diaphram is sort of like learning to ride a bicycle. It may take awhile to get your balance of position, air, and tongue pressure. But once you get it, it's easy as riding a bike.

[Vanish]

Well, I still feel I cannot achieve the position as recommended, but I can say, at least for cow calls, I seem to have found my sweet spot. The number of calls I can do in a row in increasing daily, so I guess it will just come down to practice.

At some point I am going to try the Primos Mini Sonic Dome.

[Wapiti]

Hi Vanish. I have some info for you that you are going to like !! Please send me a PM and we'll talk !!

[Swede]

Whereas I can get a cow call or bugle out of all of the diaphragms I have used. I have found some are better than others for me. I don't know why either. In addition to the advice above, you might try a few different brands.

[Lefty]

I need help with diaphragm calls;
I have problems with many types of calls . Those with crimped tops or domes I don not have a problem. (Primos)
What do I need to do differntly for a flat call?

[>>>---WW---->]

Nothing wrong with the domes or palate plate calls. Probably more world championships have been won with those types of diaphram calls that any others.

[Wapiti]

Lefty,

You really should get some differant sized frames to try. What you want is for the frame of the call to fit just between the insides of your top teeth. You can also bend any reed slightly to get and good fit, and also trim the edge of the tape a little at a time till it feels right to you. All calls are cut in a press in a generic size and should be trimmed to your liking !

Also it sounds to me that you may be using the front to middle part of your tongue. Your tongue should arch up to the roof of your mouth just in front of your back teeth and make an effort to keep the tip of your slanted downward. My tongue touches my gums in between my teeth and feels like I am pushing my teeth from the inside to outward sideways.

Try it without a call at first to get the feel I am describing then try it with a reed. Then use slow constant air, in a huffing fashion. Make a long hhhhhuuuuuuuufffffffffff. Not like whistling but huffing from your chest. Also keep your lips open and apart from each other. This will let the air out in a controlled fashion. Air control is more important than where the reed sits in your mouth. I hope this helps you out.

Trav

[Lefty]

Trav

Ive been tring a couple different Carltons,.. I sound like a wounded coyote. Ruff tone
Ive moved the call forward where the side stick out of my mouth and can get a sick cow,...

[Wapiti]

Lefty,

You are getting very close by your description !! When I say use the back part of your tongue, Arch the back part of your tongue upwards and flare it ( width wise ) out so the sides of your tongue rest on your top molars !! The reed should be right there when you lift up your tongue, that is where the reed should be and not forward and sticking out of your mouth at all.

If someone looks at you as you are calling they should not see the reed at all it should be hidden in the roof of your mouth at that point. It will take some time but you almost have it !! The better of a description you give me, the better I can learn what you are doing. I actually use a reed to get the sounds and feel you are describing. That's why I know you are so close to getting it !! Just minor adjustsment in reed placement and your tongue arch and you've got it !!

Keep the info coming so I can help you out !! You are helping so many guys learn to call just by reading this !! So you are not alone trust me !! Don't worry about sounding like a dying rabbit !! My buddy called in a 7X7 this year after I taught him to call the day before !! He sounded aweful but the bull liked it !! He can now use a reed very well !!

Trav

[Vanish]

Would it be going too far for me to post a photo of what happens when I try to put the diaphragm where Paul says in https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... CdfZS4uUBs

I swear, if I try to put it where you say Paul, the call's aluminum frame literally gets stuck between my teeth ( I can let go of the call and it just stays there, have to wedge it back out!), and I cannot move it into position.

Edit: by the way, I took some of these calls with the forward facing iPhone cam... scary!

Another Edit: Ordered another Raging Bull, since I managed some decent sounds out of it, and trying the Mini Master Single, as well.

[Wapiti]

Vanish,

We are now a sponser on here and I have some calls that you are gonna like. stop by our site and check them out.

Trav
Wapiti River Outdoors

[Vanish]

Just wanted to give an update. My calling practice took a nose dive while we were staying with friends and with me work from "home".

Now that we're all moved in, I've been able to get some good quality practicing time in down in my basement. Still can't do it while my wife is home, but she's been busy filling the house with goodies.

Anyway, switching from the the Bugling Bull's Dome Mini Master Single http://stores.elknut.com/Detail.bok?no=92 has made a world of difference. Changing very little with my technique I am now able to achieve many more calls than before! The 1/16th of an inch smaller frame allows the call to fit where the bigger reeds just won't go and I was making cow calls with very little effort.

While I still feel like there is room for improvement, this is a whole different experience. Notice the little folds in the diaphragm? That's where my mouth is pushing the edge of the tape. That's how skinny the top of my mouth is. I feel like if I can figure out how to prevent that from forming I can get even better sounds as occasionally that's where some air slips through.



Edit: At first I thought it was an annoyed neighbor, but nope, managed to set off my upstairs doorbell sensor with my bugling in the basement....

[>>>---WW---->]

Can't say as though I've ever seen one fold up like that. Looks like you need some serious trimming. But I wouldn't recommend taking over 1/16th of an inch at a time. If that isn't enough, take another 1/16th until you get it right.

Those folds could be the reason you are having trouble. They may not be allowing a good seal and some air could be passing over the top of the diaphragm.

[WindedBowhunter]

vanish - 2 other tips that Paul shares in his videos are you can trim the skirt of the diaphragm and bend it to fit the roof of your mouth so that it does not move around on you while calling!

[Bryannstacey]

Have you tried a smaller call....like a youth size? That's what I did and it worked for me, the normal size is just too big for me and doesn't fit my mouth.

[>>>---WW---->]

It isn't all that uncommon that some people just plain can't use a diaphragm call. So a good solution might be to give Elknut a call and talk to him about the XTR mouth piece for the chuckler tube. It is an external type diaphragm that makes some pretty good bugles. Also the Power Bugle by E.L.K. Inc. is pretty dang good as well. But you have to replace the bands on it often.

[Bowhunter]

I can't fit a diaphragm call in my small mouth either. I can fi a small or mini Primos one in and it fits great but the thing is just to high of a pitch. Maybe it is they way my pressure is with my tounge. I plan to try different ones and practice a lot before next year.

[Huntography]

Some of my favorite and go to calls this season;

Troys secret weapon
Dragon Slayer
Sweet Seduction
Beast II and III
Brown Bugling Bull

I lost all of them except Beast II

Lesson learned: always try many calls as some fit and sound better for each person than others.

And, always buy multiple calls for ones that work best for you.

I'll be trying many more for next season for sure.

Tubes:

Bulls loved the old Mossback double tube.

Couldn't get the buglin bulls tube to sound right for me.

Also used the chuckler a bit from my friend Opie.

Rudy

[Vanish]

By the end of the season ( lol ) I was able to use the Raging Bull again. I figured out some ideas to try due to how well the Mini Master worked. This year I was even able to effectively bugle with the Raging Bull. The wider aluminum did cut up the inside top of my mouth a but since I had to really jam it in there, but it was worth it!

[WindedBowhunter]

Some of my favorite and go to calls this season;

Troys secret weapon
Dragon Slayer
Sweet Seduction
Beast II and III
Brown Bugling Bull

Rudy

The Bugling Bull Raging Bull (Brown) is one of the most versatile calls that I have ever used, not to mention its ease of use!

[fenderhunt4]

This was the first year I used a diaphragm call for elk. I am an accomplished turkey caller with them, but things were much different when switching to an elk call. I used the Bugling Bull Mellow Yellow and noticed I had to hold it a lot more forward toward my teeth than my traditional use of turkey calls. Hope all goes well!

[Wapiti]

I hope I can help you out here.

We have the small frames in our line up. They are called the Junior series and all our reeds have our cuts in them that help with the problem you are having !!

Take a look at our website and give me a call and i'll get you all set up. We are the only call manufacturer that uses the cuts in our tape for relief. We have help so many people on this site and i'm proud of everyone for giving us a try and believing in our calls !!

Travis
Wapiti River Outdoors

[WindedBowhunter]

fenderhunt4 it is my understanding that Turkey and Elk calls are designed opposite of one another, as far as placement within the mouth. I believe ElkNut may even call this out in his video titled, "DVD Mastering The Mouth Reed"! This is not a hunting DVD, its a DVD to show you how to use mouth reed calls.

So, this is not a fault of yours or the manufactures.

[Glacier Country]

[quote="Huntography"]Some of my favorite and go to calls this season;

Troys secret weapon
Sweet Seduction
Rudy, thank you for for the plugging the Secret Weapon and Sweet Seduction. I'm Glad you like them!

Fenderhunt4, try blowing on some of your turkey calls ( If you have any without cuts in latex) in the exact same position in your mouth to do a turkey call as you do for elk With elk calls based off of a turkey call frame.(The pallet plate and dome calls will fit a little bit more forward). Just start out with your tongue and jaw position a little lower,add some air and tongue pressure make 3 notes then hold the high pitch. Then practice practice practice!! Learn to control your air then start to add the growl on the beginning of the bugle.
So many guys have used a turkey call forever and watch tv and think they have to have a pallet plate or dome type call to call elk. You can make incredible sounds on elk calls based off of a turkey call frame. Lots of you out there already have turkey calls you could start out with to practice. Cut Out the top latex with the( bat wing, or V cut or whatever kind of cut) off and see what happens.Now you have an Elk and Coyote call!

Hope that helps --->Troy