When To Call

[Swede]

OK, I'm confused again. Jeff (elkmtngear), and some others have said don't call on a no call day. As I understand it, the elk have a calendar that designates appropriate days for calling. All of the elk have their own calendar well before the bow hunters arrive in the woods, so they are acquainted with each other and are well practiced up. Now John Fitzgerald follows up with a post and says He doesn't buy into this whole premise. He seems to agree that the elk are well practiced with their calls and know each other. He just wants to keep on calling.

So, what is your opinion regarding when is it appropriate to call. Don't tell me "you should have been here yesterday." That line is reserved for fishermen. If I call first thing in the morning and don't get a response, should I just go straight to my tree stand and stay quiet, assuming it is a "no Call day? Is it good to continue to call all day until I get a response? Remember I don't have that elk calendar. What else do I need to know about when to call?

[JohnFitzgerald]

Once again I'm first! For those of you wondering, no I don't live on the forum.

My best answer, call when you know it improves your odds and don't call when you know it improves your odds. Knowing which is the hunters responsibility through education, practice, and experience.

[flystrait]

Once again I'm first! For those of you wondering, no I don't live on the forum.

My best answer, call when you know it improves your odds and don't call when you know it improves your odds. Knowing which is the hunters responsibility through education, practice, and experience.

I am somewhat confused can you please give an example?

[otcWill]

Here's a concise answer: Don't call unless you have to. I find elk first and try to kill one without the call. If I feel the call in is the only chance, I use this tactic. Otherwise, I just sneak in unannounced.

[elkmtngear]

Here's a concise answer: Don't call unless you have to.

Bingo!

Might be different on Private land, or in an unpressured area...But for highly pressured public land elk...I'm subscribing to this line of thought!

[elkmtngear]

So, what is your opinion regarding when is it appropriate to call. Don't tell me "you should have been here yesterday." That line is reserved for fishermen. If I call first thing in the morning and don't get a response, should I just go straight to my tree stand and stay quiet, assuming it is a "no Call day? Is it good to continue to call all day until I get a response? Remember I don't have that elk calendar. What else do I need to know about when to call?

"Run and Gun" hunting is all about trying to become an elk. With that in mind, I want to be socially accepted by the other elk. So I'm going to try to "tune in" to what is going on in the elk woods, before I go around announcing my presence.

And remember Swede, I'm the guy who calls from my tree stand occasionally (just a couple of soft mews every 15 minutes or so).

Depending on what I'm hearing or not hearing, I may or may not employ this tactic.

[JohnFitzgerald]

Once again I'm first! For those of you wondering, no I don't live on the forum.

My best answer, call when you know it improves your odds and don't call when you know it improves your odds. Knowing which is the hunters responsibility through education, practice, and experience.

I am somewhat confused can you please give an example?

1. Call when it improves your odds(ie you know what your saying with the calls)
2. Don't call when you know it improves your odds(ie you sound horrible)

I am confused about the don't call unless you have to. People must hunt different country than I do. Good luck sneaking in on an elk were I hunt.

[elkmtngear]

I am confused about the don't call unless you have to. People must hunt different country than I do. Good luck sneaking in on an elk were I hunt.

John,
If the elk are being silent, and I hear a bull piping off...at least I will know it is you

Now, say that it's not just John. There are two more groups of hunters in the same large drainage, using the same tactics.

The elk I hunt would automatically go into stealth mode.

[ElkNut1]

Putting limitations on oneself & labeling "call days" & "no call days" comes down to ones knowledge in understanding an elks behavior. The more we know about this species "Elk" the better equipped we can be in calling or luring them our way even in times where no sound may be heard for 5 straight days. The key here is understanding the phase of the rut we are hunting. If Aug 25th to Sept 10th we must have a specific mindset where we rely on certain methods that raise the odds in our favor. The same can apply from Sept. 10th well into Oct.

Each hunter has different values on what they are looking for, some will take any elk, others are looking for a branched bull or nothing, others are looking for quality herd bulls or nothing. Once you figure out where you stand or your group stands & what time of the rut phase you are hunting you can now employ techniques that will up your odds daily by being sound specific.

There are specific techniques that any of us can employ to increase our odds any time of any rut phase. In some situations I'm just looking for a location of where are some elk at, in other instances I'm wanting the elk come to me, this is the tougher of the two, the reason is I'm generally trying to bring elk my way to a spot they have no intention to going to!

Calling that reaps the most benefits when looking for any elk during those quiet times are Silent/Cold Calling Setups, Breeding Sequences, Advertising Sequences. Silent/Cold Calling Setups will generally net cows & spikes 1st with an occasional raghorn showing up 1st from time to time. Breeding sequences are 50/50 bulls or cows & spikes can show 1st. Advertising sequences generally net bulls 1st meaning about 80% of the time. The ticket with all 3 of these is for best results you must have a good setup & stay put up to an hour.

I will say that in all the years I've hunted elk & for how many days in each one of those years there has never been a day I did not call. To me, there is no such thing as a no call day! I look for the tactic that will induce curiosity from elk for that day & rut phase when quiet. Use such techniques when you are out there & master them well & you will net results & it will bolster your confidence that you too will not have any "no call days" (grin) That's the toughest time to hunt elk but not the time to go back to camp throwing in the towel or only hunting for a couple hours in the morning, the elk are still out there they do not disappear! Of course wind is a huge factor here so hunt smart!

As we are discussing calling here I did not mention treestands or ambush type hunting.

ElkNut1

[JohnFitzgerald]

I am confused about the don't call unless you have to. People must hunt different country than I do. Good luck sneaking in on an elk were I hunt.

John,
If the elk are being silent, and I hear a bull piping off...at least I will know it is you

Now, say that it's not just John. There are two more groups of hunters in the same large drainage, using the same tactics.

The elk I hunt would automatically go into stealth mode.

And the big blood trail you come across is from me packing out my bull.

[Swede]

As we are discussing calling here I did not mention treestands or ambush type hunting.

Paul: I am not sure what your point is here. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it appears that you are saying that tree stands or ground blinds are quality options on "no call days". I know you recognize the merits of spot and stalk and ambush style hunting, but what I am asking is if you think ambush hunting should be on more hunter's minds as a go to alternative if someone can't get a response to their calls?
When a hunter makes several cold call setups and gets no response, they probably have not educated the elk. They most likely have not pushed elk out of the area. It could be that the elk scented you, and you were not aware of it, but the odds are in your favor that nothing is changed.
I know I have had days when I do a cold call routine several times in the morning, waiting for an hour at each setup and nothing happens. That afternoon I will be in my stand. To my way of thinking a tree stand is a great option for anyone that has located a good ambush spot(s). I would recommend having one or two quality ambush (tree stand or ground blind) locations you are familiar with for slow calling days. As we have discussed, calling is a tool. So is a tree stand. The more tools you have, that you can effectively employ, the better your odds are at killing an elk.

[cnelk]

I LOVE cold calling!
I dont stay an hour in each spot tho.
20 minutes is tops for me and Im quietly off to the next spot.

I also call from my tree stand! We have brought several elk in over the years doing it and dont plan to stop.
Not a lot of calling, just a few mews now and then.
This doesnt just bring in cows, spikes either as my son called in a nice 6x6 last fall but no shot opportunity was given.

There isnt a day in the elk woods I dont call.
Even if I dont hear elk or dont get a response, does not mean they wont come in
In fact, in my pressured OTC areas, rarely are the elk vocal...
But when they are, I switch gears and take advantage of it!!!

[elkmtngear]

OK, I'm confused again. Jeff (elkmtngear), and some others have said don't call on a no call day

For the record...I didn't ever say anything about "no call" days.

I did mention "no bugle days"...and mentioned that I get quieter in my approach to hunting (but I never said I do not call at all).

There are times when I know exactly where two or three bulls are located. In the latter part of bowseason, on a "regular day", I can count on hearing them at least sound off with a location bugle when they get to their bedroom.

Sometimes, depending on weather, pressure, etc...it's like someone throws a switch...and I hear nothing (even in the very early AM)

This makes me much more cautious in my approach to hunting those elk.

As Brad mentioned...when those bulls start firing off aggressively...I'm shifting gears!!

[otcWill]

I am confused about the don't call unless you have to. People must hunt different country than I do. Good luck sneaking in on an elk were I hunt. [/quote]


Ever hunted pronghorns? Once you've done that, sneaking up on elk anywhere, seems quite easy. I, like most of ya, have my area figured out. I glass, find elk, and then head in to kill one. I rarely ever go "hunt" elk. I know exactly where they are and if I can kill one without making a peep, that's what I do. Also, I've had extremely good success sneaking within 80 yards before hitting my first call. My results have been nearly 100% when surprising a bull from close range that doesn't know I'm there. On the other hand, when I've alerted them to another elk presence before being inside 100 yards (locater bugle or response to theirs) I've had quite different odds. Hope this clears up my humble opinion on when to call.

Also, I must reiterate the pronghorn thing. Spot/stalk bowhunting pronghorns will make you a MUCH better stalker of all other things! Once you've been laying on the ground slithering like a snake through 6 in grass chasing the unglulate with possibly the best eyes on the planet, stalking in on 20 elk is piece of cake. If it weren't for the dang swirling mountain winds, I'm not sure I'd ever need a call to kill an elk.

[Swede]

Thanks Jeff for that clarification. I think we are getting to an important part of using calls, and what we need to do when. I know that just going out and making more and more bugles, is sometimes not only unproductive, but it can be counterproductive. I know that hiking from point to point, waiting a few minutes is also counterproductive. I have done that too, when I get impatient. On those days I stand up, maybe take a few steps and may run off a good bull.
As far as calling from a tree stand is concerned, I guess we make our own decisions and take our chances. I too have had elk come in to a call from a tree stand. I have had some that I thought were coming, turn the other way and leave. The evidence is inconclusive, but it convinces me that most times we are better off being quiet in a tree stand. Ultimately we never know how many we turn away by calling, and how many would have come in anyway. All I can say is that it appears more elk are coming near when I stay quiet. After all they are coming down the trails and to water. That is why I picked that spot. If they were going to come to a call, I could have picked a spot off in the forest almost anywhere else. My 2 cents on when to call from a stand.

[flystrait]

I think we are getting to an important part of using calls, and what we need to do when. I know that just going out and making more and more bugles, is sometimes not only unproductive, but it can be counterproductive. I know that hiking from point to point, waiting a few minutes is also counterproductive. I have done that too, when I get impatient. On those days I stand up, maybe take a few steps and may run off a good bull.

Swede, can you please give some examples how making more bugles and going from point to point can be counterproductive. I always appreciate the wisdom and expereince you share with us.

Doe's counter productive mean that if you do these two things people will more than likely not be succsessfull at harvesting an elk? Or educates them in a particular area? etc.

[elkmtngear]

As far as calling from a tree stand is concerned, I guess we make our own decisions and take our chances. I too have had elk come in to a call from a tree stand. I have had some that I thought were coming, turn the other way and leave. The evidence is inconclusive, but it convinces me that most times we are better off being quiet in a tree stand.

If I'm hearing elk talk in my area...and I'm on stand...I'm probably going to occasionally sound off with low volume cow calls.

If the elk woods are scary silent...I may not utter a single note when sitting a wallow.

As others have mentioned...you can't just babble incoherently...it's often about what you say, and when you say it.

I've had bulls come in on a dead run on three different occasions when on a tree stand...two in response to a spike squeal, and one responding to my cow calls. Two of those three bulls ended up in my freezer

[Swede]

Flystraight: What I was referring to was both educating elk and pushing elk out of the area. When I cold call, get up and have a bull that was very near blow out of there, I have just trained an elk to be more wary. If I move too fast doing these cold call setup, I can have the effect of pushing elk away. I have observed this where I hunt.
As an example, there is a break above the canyon near where sit and wait. Hunters like to walk along stop for a few minutes, call and then move on. Not only have I witnessed elk herds running away, but it doesn't take long before there are very few elk remaining in the area. I have observed this result when there were no other factors, I could see, that were causing the elk to leave.

[JohnFitzgerald]

I am confused about the don't call unless you have to. People must hunt different country than I do. Good luck sneaking in on an elk were I hunt.

Ever hunted pronghorns? Once you've done that, sneaking up on elk anywhere, seems quite easy. I, like most of ya, have my area figured out. I glass, find elk, and then head in to kill one. I rarely ever go "hunt" elk. I know exactly where they are and if I can kill one without making a peep, that's what I do. Also, I've had extremely good success sneaking within 80 yards before hitting my first call. My results have been nearly 100% when surprising a bull from close range that doesn't know I'm there. On the other hand, when I've alerted them to another elk presence before being inside 100 yards (locater bugle or response to theirs) I've had quite different odds. Hope this clears up my humble opinion on when to call.

Also, I must reiterate the pronghorn thing. Spot/stalk bowhunting pronghorns will make you a MUCH better stalker of all other things! Once you've been laying on the ground slithering like a snake through 6 in grass chasing the unglulate with possibly the best eyes on the planet, stalking in on 20 elk is piece of cake. If it weren't for the dang swirling mountain winds, I'm not sure I'd ever need a call to kill an elk.

I'm glad that you have an area that you can do that in.

The Pronghorn I hunt are in flat open ground and the elk I hunt are in deep canyons with thick dense timber and blow down everywhere. We don't get the option of glassing for elk because if you do all you'd see are tree tops.

Getting to within 80 yards of elk can be easily done without calling. But then I'd have to sneak an additional 40 -50 yards farther to get a clear shot. I'd rather rely on my calling skills. Especially if you have 10 cows looking out for you. Every step is a snap....crunch!

I would be happy to have someone teach me spot and stock methods for my area. It probably does work but I'm not going to chance it until I get more training.

All - Sorry, I just don't buy into the thought that "elk go quiet because a hunter starts calling". I do believe that elk can go quiet because hunters don't understand what intent they are projecting with their sounds.

Just my 2 - cents!

[ORG]

john can you give a intent example

[JohnFitzgerald]

john can you give a intent example

A hunter wants to locate elk so they continuously throw out Challenge Bugles(usually under Swedes tree stand ). They believe the intent is to locate elk but the true intent in that call is an aggressive action.