Calling Again

[Swede]

Last night I was updating the Archives Forum when I got to rereading a thread about "Over Calling". The consensus was there are times not to call, but I was not satisfied that the subject was well covered. I will share here a couple of times I have learned the hard way not to call. If you can think of some more please add them to this list.

!. Do not call from your tree stand. This is not an absolute, but a general rule of thumb. It is important not to answer a bull that is off a ways and bugles. It is likely he is just finding out if other elk are at the water hole where you are waiting. If you call back even 15+minutes later you have warned him of your presence. Elk are social animals, but there is a time when they don't want anything to do with another bull. It could be that the one that called has cows, or he could be wanting to avoid another herd bull.
2. Another time to minimize or even eliminate calling is when calling lets the bull you are after know your exact location. A continuous line of calls as you approach will have him on the alert for your arrival and gives him all of the advantage. Go in quiet until up are very close, of stay back and call and let the shooter move in for a shot.

OK it's you turn.

[Mikeha33]

Swede, how well does an elk hear? At what range would an elk be able to put an "X" on the sound, even if out of sight?

[stringunner]

Mikeha33- I don't know for sure and perhaps others will chime in to answer this question with more validity, but I would say within 100 yards (depending on terrain and how open or thick the cover is) an elk is pretty good at pin pointing the location of the caller. Or at least "pin pointing" with enough certainty to be on high alert of specific directions or possible "approaches" of the caller.

[ishy]

I think elk are great at it. I'm not so great and would love to be able to increase that skill. I would bet I would call less if I could pintpoint a bulls location better.
Swede what's an eater hole? I've heard of a pie hole but never an eater hole.

[Swede]

I don't know Mike, but it is a long ways. I am sure it varies depending on terrain. I still remember bugling at a monster bull that must have been 1/4 mile away. He came to with 20 yards and stared right at me, and continued until he was certain that the brushy location where I was squatted had no elk. I could not draw or move without spooking him. It can be creepy just how exact they are in pinning you down.
For the sake of nudging this thread along, I am going to give another don't call situation.
3. Don't call when you are not prepared to shoot an incoming elk. You will get caught if you do this often.

Ishy: LOL The "W" is right next to my "E" on my keyboard. My pinky finger hit the wrong one. I will edit the post. Thanks

[cnelk]

As far as an elk's ability to pinpoint your calling, I like to compare it to you and your house.

Lets say you are laying on the couch and dozing off and on.
All of a sudden, THUMP
Well, you probably know your house pretty well and you know it didnt come from the garage.
You hear it again. THUMP
From the sound, you know it was over on the other end of the house, near a bedroom or bathroom.
So you head that direction and as you near the vicinity, you hear it again THUMP.
Well, since you are closer, you realize its not coming from the bathroom but the nearby bedroom.
Do you go to the bathroom?
Nope.
You go to the bedroom right?

Only to find out your kid is bouncing a ball off the wall....

The elk know the terrain like you know your house, its just bigger

[Swede]

cnelk, that is an interesting analogy, but what did you do with the kid? Is it the same as with elk, or is that where the analogy breaks down?

[cnelk]

Im not sure if it was an analogy that broke down or what.
But the thumping stopped.
And the bull retreated to the couch

[cnelk]

Here is short vid for the new guys that probably havent seen it before.
I was goofing around a couple years ago looking for a couple of buddies that were hunting in an area.
I parked the truck and took of a few hundred yards to see what I could call in.
I made 2 sets of cow mews and I saw movement about 60-70 away, so I quit calling and got my camera ready.

As you can see, he came DIRECTLY to me and he couldnt even see me when he heard me


This video can also be seen on the following informative link

viewtopic.php?t=755

[Toby]

Don't call when you are taking a break or eating lunch, unless you are prepared for elk to come in. Don't ask me how I know this.

[JohnFitzgerald]

I don't believe in using the term "over calling". I think it leads to a lot of misconceptions. Instead I like to refer to "incorrect sounds used for the situation".

[Still Hunter]

I'd like to point something out that seems lost in some.

Elk make lots of noise. Even if you make none.

[Swede]

Elk make lots of noise. Even if you make none.

Sometimes, but there are many times they don't. There are times, and many situations, where they are quiet.

But that is not the main point here. When is it good for a hunter to stay quiet?
Another time I can think of to not call, is when you would be trying to bring in one from across a large opening.
Also don't call when the elk can see you.
Don't call when the elk coming in can see there is no elk where the call came from.
Don't call when the elk will associate your call with the vehicle you just drove up in.
Ok, now I am going to have to think if I am going to come up with another time not to call.

[Trophyhill]

Don't call when you are taking a break or eating lunch, unless you are prepared for elk to come in. Don't ask me how I know this.

do you mind if i take a guess? ok thanks you hang your bow in a tree or set it down, arrow back in the quiver, take off your pack, get comfortable, take a few bites of your sandwich, wash it down with something wet and for the heck of it you make a call or 2. then before you can finish your sandwich you have an elk staring at you as you look over and ask yourself "why is my bow over there while I'm over here and that elk is right there"? and then the elk bolts as you drop the rest of your sandwich and reach for your bow

[easeup]

is it overcalling when some one does not get off the ATV while they call?

[Swede]

Lol easeup, I don't know if that fits the precise definition, but I am comfortable saying some areas get over called, and lazy callers educating the elk are a major contributor. Maybe J.F. is right by definition. I would not disagree with his principle argument, but when too many callers, many of whom are poor, flood and area and the elk leave, the practical side of me says the area has been over called.

[JohnFitzgerald]

Elk make lots of noise. Even if you make none.

Sometimes, but there are many times they don't. There are times, and many situations, where they are quiet.

But that is not the main point here. When is it good for a hunter to stay quiet?
Another time I can think of to not call, is when you would be trying to bring in one from across a large opening.
Also don't call when the elk can see you.
Don't call when the elk coming in can see there is no elk where the call came from.
Don't call when the elk will associate your call with the vehicle you just drove up in.
Ok, now I am going to have to think if I am going to come up with another time not to call.

So you are actually talking about times when to call vs when not too. Still, not sure I'd use "over calling" as the term to describe it.

BTW, I locate bugle from my truck almost every season. But I do step out, shut off the engine, and give it a few minutes. Its a Great way to find vocal bulls.

[JohnFitzgerald]

Lol easeup, I don't know if that fits the precise definition, but I am comfortable saying some areas get over called, and lazy callers educating the elk are a major contributor. Maybe J.F. is right by definition. I would not disagree with his principle argument, but when too many callers, many of whom are poor, flood and area and the elk leave, the practical side of me says the area has been over called.

Incorrect sounds also incorporates "lousy" sounds. I just think people get the wrong impression when we say "over calling". Bulls can be killed when you get aggressive and call a lot. Hunters fearful of over calling stay reserved and miss these opportunities. This is why I talk about correct sounds and when to call/not to call. But thats just my dos centos.

[Swede]

John: I can see I confused the issue by referencing an old thread about "over calling". I did not mean to focus on the over calling, but just when is it not a good idea to call. My point in my last post was to say that it is good to tone it down in some areas that are over called. I still call in my hunting area every year when my hunting time extends to later in the season.
I have mentioned in the past that I witnessed two herds leaving an area one day. The herds trotted past me in front an behind, about fifteen minutes apart. They were leaving to get away from a caller that was farther down the canyon. The crazy part is that the caller was excellent, but he had no clue what the effects he was having were. He never knew the elk were even around.

[JohnFitzgerald]

But, I could easily say that those two herds winded the hunter.

[JohnFitzgerald]

p.s. It was your hunt, I'm in no way trying to say your opinion of the situation is wrong.

[Swede]

Good discussion John. I agree he could have been winded, but then we still have educated elk. I see you are saying that is not over calling, but poor calling. I am not onboard with that for two reasons. 1. Because the elk are too familiar with hunters calling and they react every year the same. 2. The hunter was cold calling and had no idea the elk were around. They were not close enough for him to see or hear them.
When I talked with the hunter he speculated that he could have been winded, but the elk were on opposite hillsides. If we call that "poor calling" and identify it as such, do we also say general calling that results in failure is always poor or improper? How would anyone know that they were doing poor calling? If people hunt an area, and within a week most of the elk are gone, do we just attribute that to poor calling?

As you often say "my 2 cents".

P.S. I started to post when I saw your latest. Don't be concerned. I appreciate the discussion and hope others will benefit. If it were just you and me I would not be so long winded on this point.

[JohnFitzgerald]

Good points! I've hunted to the northwest of you and have seen strange behavior. Could it be too many callers? I know snipers been trying to figure out the secret for a couple years now.

[elkmtngear]

!. Do not call from your tree stand. This is not an absolute, but a general rule of thumb. It is important not to answer a bull that is off a ways and bugles. It is likely he is just finding out if other elk are at the water hole where you are waiting. If you call back even 15+minutes later you have warned him of your presence. Elk are social animals, but there is a time when they don't want anything to do with another bull. It could be that the one that called has cows, or he could be wanting to avoid another herd bull.

Like Swede said, this is not an absolute. I have personally arrowed four bulls from trees, using occasional mews, coupled with a spike squeal in the case of a response.

My normal routine is to give just a couple of mews every 15 minutes or so, in the hope that passing elk will either come in to take a peek, or sound off. Then sometimes, I'll give off a spike squeal.

Three out of the four came in aggressively, on the run, screaming, stomping, etc.

#4 bull came in cautiously and silently, nose in the wind, in response to my cow sounds (this was over a series of wallows).

It really depends on how vocal the elk are in the area. Sometimes I will choose to be silent...I go with my gut feeling and do what feels right at the time.

Maybe I've just been lucky (I've killed a couple of cows in the same manner).

[Swede]

This may seem contradictory to my earlier post, but Jeff makes an excellent point. Jeff has obviously spent some time in a tree stand. I would not try to dissuade him from calling if his gut is giving him the go ahead. I too have called in elk that I have killed. The problem I have with calling I,s that I believe I have turned back more elk than I have drawn in with calling. Some elk come in to where I am waiting, quite carefree. Some are very cautious. I had a squirrel chatter just when I was about to draw on a bull one day. The bull blew out of there, and to the best of my knowledge never returned. Talk about nervous! Where I sit, often at water, with several trails nearby, I expect to see elk occasionally. I prefer to stay quiet and let the elk go undisturbed until I touch the trigger on my release.
If I was sitting at one water hole in a small area with numerous trails, wallows and water holes, I would probably try to turn the odds in my favor more by light calling as Jeff describes. To my way of thinking. Jeff's tactics are right on, if you are going to call from your stand.

[cnelk]

I too have had good success from a tree stand using Jeff's technique.
A mew every so often and brought elk in both fast and cautiously.
My son had the good fortune of calling in 3 different elk (2 cows and 1 bull) from his perch this past fall.
Only got one shot