Elk Hunting Basics...Your Move, Thread #3

[Indian Summer]

It's early September. You're area get's lots of pressure during peak weeks so you've decided to buck the odds and bow hunt before the rut really kicks in. You're in some pretty open country and you've seen a bull heading downhill at first light to a particular isolated patch of timber in the bottom of a draw 2 days in a row to bed. So far you haven't seen the cows that you assume he might be hanging out with at night. You've tried calling a today from above where he comes from. He'll bugle occasionally from his bed but refuses to budge during shooting hours. How are you going to seal the deal on this guy before he changes his pattern and moves on?

[Swede]

I would look for a nearby water hole with signs of use and wait for him to come out. Be careful not to disturb him and be patient. It is interesting that he goes down hill to bed. Is it possible his water hole is above? Does he really have any cows? Can I find a good tree stand location and set up with out being detected? I know I am supposed to answer your question, but these are questions that quickly run through my mind. This bull is killable if I do not mess up, and if no one pushes him.

[cnelk]

Use caution here guys...
A bull heading DOWNHILL at first light?
The thermals are going down at that time.

Indian Summer, are you trying to trick us?

[Still Hunter]

I don't think this can happen, but if it did. I'd be in the timber the next morning to ambush him.

[WapitiTalk1]

I've seen this happen before... a bull heading downhill to bed. In fact, there's a certain ID bull that I've been trying to become friends with for two years that does this same thing. He does not go down and bed in timber but down across a steep draw, and back on to the opposite hillside, on a very thick side hill, not far above the very small creek bottom.....none the less, pretty much down in the morning with his handful of cows to bed. Curious to what folks say they would/may do in this scenario. We've kind of cracked the code on our bull but it's so damn thick, a 30 yard shot may as well be 100.

[Indian Summer]

I'm listening guys. Still... never say never just like never say always. I've seen it all. If we could use words like always and never hunting would surely be easier. In this case there are gated roads that run around the heads of the canyons. The elk like to feed along the road at night and then drop down to the least accessible spot to bed. They can see and hear everything above them. A lot of people don't even consider the fact that the elk are right "under" their noses. I know several places like this, some where the roads aren't gated and trucks drive up and down all season long.

I'm gonna sit back and let some of our new guys chime in before I tell you how this bull was killed.

[flystrait]

Hmmm. As much as I like to call elk in. I would find a path underneath in the draw since the thermals would be going down hill. I would be just off to one side from where he was coming down the hill and not say a word. Since it is pretty open I would be just inside the timber as well so he would not see me. As he moves toward the edge of the timber I would come to full draw and let out a soft cow call stopping him in his tracks That’s when I would let the arrow fly. This definitely is a make or break move you either get the shot or not. I just like being very aggressive when a opportunity presents itself.

[Still Hunter]

:D I'm listening guys. Still... never say never just like never say always. I've seen it all. If we could use words like always and never hunting would surely be easier. In this case there are gated roads that run around the heads of the canyons. The elk like to feed along the road at night and then drop down to the least accessible spot to bed. They can see and hear everything above them. A lot of people don't even consider the fact that the elk are right "under" their noses. I know several places like this, some where the roads aren't gated and trucks drive up and down all season long.

I'm gonna sit back and let some of our new guys chime in before I tell you how this bull was killed.

I didn't say never.

Any reason my method wouldn't work? I'd approach the timber on the downwind side, and let him come to me when he comes back to bed. I'll have the wind in my favor.

[JJ Overkill]

id be waiting for him in his bedroom, be in there at least an hr before first light, move slowly and listen for any signs of other elk. like cnelk said id have the thermals in my favor.

I did something like this 3yrs ago,( mid season though) I watched a herd come over the top of a mountain for two days, the third day I was up above timber line two hrs before light tucked behind a small bush. the bull bugled his way over the hill, I setup to far away, the elk came down 85yds away. the bull got wounded that evening by a muzzle loader and through my hole plan off.

[Trophyhill]

I'd try to beat him to his bed and be where he wants to be. then when he's heading to his bed I'd bugle. if he answers back and cover allowed I'd move towards him quickly gaining some distance from my call. if he continues bugling but not coming in very fast I'd try a pleading cow call with some urgency and move toward him again, if he started towards me bugling at this point I'd shut up and let him come and nock an arrow. if he's not coming in at this point I'd do my best impression of "the threat" level 2.

[easeup]

I too have seen this deal before. A bull was seen heading down the mountain toward the county road and some oakbrush in a little draw. Figuring there must be a small seep in there to be cool in the shade because we were so low in elevation it was down right hot in the afternoon. I was sweating too and figured my stink would surely give me away. Not wanting to waste a legit chance, I hurried around a knoll to get the wind good and closed the distance to about 200 yds from where I thought he was. a little cow calling at 3pm in 80F heat brought not one bull but two. Two spikes came out to less than 15 yds. not legal. I had to play it out not wanting to run them out figuring something else was in that hole and sure enough a legal bull came out and escaped over the ridge after the wind swirl ruined a fantastic afternoon.
with that, lets go set up and try it again.

[Bullnuts]

Thermals should be going downhill. Now is the ridge N/S or E/W oriented? If possible I get on the side where the sun will be at my back, and I work in as close as I can to his travel route where I can sit and see, but still make adjustments if he takes another route - again no always or never here, just because he came down the same trail twice doesn't mean he does it again. In fact that almost guarantees that he doesn't, especially if I'm sitting on the trail. From there, I wait until I see him, figure out which way he's going to come, let him walk into my shooting lane, throw a nervous grunt at him, and skewer him.

[cnelk]

Im setting up and watching this 'isolated patch of timber' all day.
I want to know when he leaves - and where he goes
I think he is more susceptible in an area where he isnt bedding

[BrentLaBere]

Watch the bull two days to his bedroom and have an idea where he is bedding? Side hill him and get even or above him waiting as the thermals will be switching by 10 or 11 am and sneak in above him. Get within 100 yards or so of where I think he is bedded and start a cow calling sequence of a small group moving through. Bull bugles off from his bed calling new cows in to him. Send shooter in front and call like a lazy cow in the back stubborn and not wanting to come in hoping to draw him just outside his bedroom.

[Mikeha33]

Is is pattern to go back to where he was coming from in the afternoon? If so, then it makes sense to me that he might be bedding alone in the morning and returning to the cows in the afternoon. Being a novice, and not knowing any better, I'd try this. Watch the bull into the patch of timber, then try and locate the cows. After the cows are found, then get between the bulls and the cow, and wait, and if possible, from a vantage point where it may be possible to see the bull (you did say fairly open country) when he begins coming back uphill. Once he gets moving again, or if he is in pretty close proximity to the cows, then start cow calling, and try to coax him in.
How far off am I?

[Still Hunter]

You guys are making this way too complicated. You know where he's going. You have the wind in your favor. This is the situation I always look for. I either go in after him during the day, or ambush him in the morning. This is ideal for an ambush. Why in the world you'd want to do any kind of call baffles me. How do you ambush when you give away your position by calling? You stay still and quiet, and take the shot when he's in range, and you have a clear shot.

There are times when no calls are needed. This is one of them. If that bull repeats what he did the two days prior. He's in my freezer, and no calls will be used.

[Mikeha33]

StillHunter, I considered that, BUT, what we don't know, is how small is that patch of timber? 1 acre or 10 acres? If it's a really small patch of timber, than waiting silently to ambush could possibly work, but if it's not, and he never gets anywhere close to being in bow range, than why press your luck on busting him and having him run 2 ridges over? If we can find out if he is returning to cows later in the day, then why not use that to our advantage? He's somewhat patterned, and getting in his way between A & B seems logical, basically hunting a pinch point, but with the advantage of being able to be vocal, and making him think you're what he wants anyways, a cow.
I'm not saying an ambush wouldn't work at all, I am just chiming in on how I would try it based on what I know, which isn't very much. Some guys have been asking for novice hunters to chime in, so here I am, right or ring-a-ding-ding-ding-dong wrong.

[Still Hunter]

Where do you think he's going every morning, and if he had cows. Why wouldn't they be with him? I know the answer. I want to see if you do.

Also, let me ask you. If there were cows in the timber (unlikely). Wouldn't you hear them while waiting in ambush? If you didn't hear them. Why would you want to alert the bull to your presence? If you did hear them. Why add anything?

Calling in a bull is not an ambush.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ambush

[Mikeha33]

OK, I probably don't know the answer, but I have 2 thoughts on it why the cows are not coming with him to bed in the mornings.

1. He's a satellite bull, and the cows he's been moving towards have a herd bull with them, so he's travelling alone, but trying to get a cow or two to break off with him, but either being run off by the herd bull, or leaving on his own reluctantly.
~OR~
2. No hot cows yet, so he's not 100% committed to them, but he is interested, so staying close.

I understand the concept and definition of an ambush. I was implying that I would not try an ambush in the timber on his way to bed, but rather catch him on his way back up, so if he doesn't take a route that I am on, I have some chance at coaxing him into range with a cow call, since in my mind, that is where he is headed, to be with (or attempt to be with) cows.

Is either one what you are thinking?

[Trumkin the Dwarf]

I'd be on the edge of the timber before first light. My strategy would be to spot him as far out as possible and try to intercept him a few yards into the dark stuff. If I didn't have the cover to catch him on the edge, I'd try to be a couple hundred yards into the timber and raking a tree in the middle of his bedroom as he arrived. I'm guessing this bull is alone and not too fired up yet, but any self respecting bull should get ticked off to have an upstart usurper trying to claim his bedroom.

[WapitiTalk1]

I have 2 thoughts on it why the cows are not coming with him to bed in the mornings. 1. He's a satellite bull, and the cows he's been moving towards have a herd bull with them, so he's travelling alone, but trying to get a cow or two to break off with him, but either being run off by the herd bull, or leaving on his own reluctantly. ~OR~ 2. No hot cows yet, so he's not 100% committed to them, but he is interested, so staying close.

Interesting Mike.. You may be on to something. I think from IS's initial scenario it was assumed by many that this was a herd bull (as cows were mentioned). Curious to hear the actual "tale of the tape" when IS chimes back in on how he worked this bull.

[Still Hunter]

In the OP's post he made no mention of it being a young bull, or of cows. It's early Sept. I took this as being a lone mature bull.

Trying to ambush him coming out of the timber would be much more difficult than coming back to the timber. From my experience this whole thing screams at me to make a quiet ambush on him coming back in the timber. I would be in the timber.

[WapitiTalk1]

Still Hunter, this what I was referring to from the OP's first post. "So far you haven't seen the cows that you assume he might be hanging out with at night". I'm just saying that this leads the readers to at least potentially think this may be bull with cows and not a loner which adds certain variables to the hunter's ultimate decision/game plan. Not sure why a bull would be leaving the cows he's potentially hanging out with at night on the ridge unless as Mikeha33 mentioned, it's a SAT heading up to lurk around a cowed up bull. I do agree that an attempt to call the timber dwelling bull from any location is probably not the best tactic to kill him given the information provided. Ambush close to or just inside the timber? Probably a good tactic/plan of attack. Setting up along the travel route (if the bull seems to be consistently using a certain path to and from the timber) and stopping him with a nervous grunt for a shot could also work, terrain/cover dependent. IS did say is was a very open area. Aren't these fun

[Still Hunter]

Yes, they're fun. I can only respond to those that would apply to my style of hunting. I never responded to the first one. This one fits what I do. Although ambush is not high on my list. I generally go in after them. This one seemed perfect for an ambush though.

I thought mature bull, because two days in a row it was alone. A satellite bull that time of year probably wouldn't be.

Then again i'm not great at imagining a situation. I do better if i'm there, and can observe everything.

[elkmtngear]

I like the ambush idea. If he's moving down with the wind at his back in the AM...he's ripe to be ambushed!

Could be a really good bull just hanging out and waiting for the Satellites to round up the herd, so he can boot them out later...typical early Season behavior for a mature bull.

He has got his routine down, and he is tucked into an area that is hard to approach.

Warmer weather...there may be a wallow nearby that he is hitting mid-morning to afternoon within reach of his bed; could be an option.

I would get up really early to attempt to kill this bull.

[Mikeha33]

I was just reading through some of the old archived tips, and came across a post where Paul gave a good description of something along these lines under "Archived Tips" the thread "I Gotta Ask", where he talks about elk behavior similar to this

[color=#FF0000]"Too guys, this technique is not the same as substituting cow calls for bugles. It's different & your results are different because you use this method for a totally different reason. The bugling you are imitating can be for two main reasons depending on your sound choices. You can be the (lonesome charlie young bull) or a bull advertising himself into a new area. Both of these will result in 85% chance of pulling bulls in to your setup 1st, not cows! -- Using mostly cow calling in your setup during non rutting phases will most likely net you cows & spikes 1st.

You have to understand what's going on when you are around elk that are not rutting, (no cows in or near estrus) there are bulls & cows not far off from one another, any bull can wander in the cows direction for whatever reason & see or hear cows & show little interest in them outside of the rut. But, bulls want to know what the competition is like during rutting times & non rutting times so are intrigued when a new bull shows up especially in an advertising manner & they can't physically see him, they want to size him up as they've done throughout the Summer when in their bachelor groups with the other bulls. So displaying this technique is directed toward the bulls & that is what normally shows up. In cow calling sequences the bulls are generally the last to show up outside rutting times.

Evaluate the the day & it's activities no matter the date & play your cards right, just because you don't hear bugling doesn't mean all is lost, you can still attract & kill those curious bulls, they generally come in quiet to check you out.

As far as when to use it, use common sense, lots of hunters in earshot is not a good time, be selective in its use & time of its use. This is just another option to consider for your bag of tricks. (grin)

ElkNut1"[/color]

So, my thought of cow calling, if in case any cows in the area are not in estrous, may not pan out, and may not interest this bull, whether a HB or SAT, but could prove effective in filling a cow tag, but in this instance, a cow is not what we're going after.

[Indian Summer]

OK guys time for the answer. Obviously there is more than one right way to do lots of things but this is what worked for us.

First I want to say that I was very impressed by the answers from you guys. Especially proud of the newer Elknuts for some excellent thoughts.

First... I always say that even though calling is a great way to locate elk, and often the way to lure them into shooting range.... as soon as you toot your horn there's always the chance you'll get negative results instead of the ones you hoped for. I said there was a lot of pressure in the area to come. So this bull has heard it all when it comes to calling. We already know where he's been hanging. So my philosophy, like Still Hunter & several others said, is not to blow my cover or give up my location and keep my mouth shut. We all love to live the dream we hear about and see on tv by fooling a bull into committing suicide but this isn't about that, it's about punching your tag.

Bullnuts: "just because he came down the same trail twice doesn't mean he does it again. In fact that almost guarantees that he doesn't, especially if I'm sitting on the trail." Brilliant! Why is that huh????

Again I said "this bull has seen pressure". Even without that factor most often you're only getting one crack at him.

Cnelk: "I think he is more susceptible in an area where he isn't bedding" Also brilliant. If there's one place a bull or lead cow approaches with max caution it is the place they know reeks of their presence and therefore may have a predator waiting. BUT.........

In this case we felt it was a good enough opportunity to try to make things happen. Early in the season we can rely a little on our deer hunting tactics. At this time elk can be patterned. But unlike with deer there is a sense of urgency because elk will only hold a pattern so long before they just naturally relocate. It's an inbred survival tactic. Also... I tend to have a "let's make something happen" attitude. That way I have less regrets and woulda shoulda couldas. Plus it's early so I'm going with aggressive... meaning....

Elkmntngear: "I would get up really early to attempt to kill this bull." Damn straight!

When watching the bull it was very important to pay attention to where he entered the timber. Then it's time to earn this bull the old fashioned way, with hard work. I always envision two endings. The first is me high fiving the other guy over a dead herd bull. The other is kicking myself in the arse saying "I knew we shoulda went the extra mile to make double damn sure we put as many things in our favor as we could" because if you don't you just have to keep getting up at ungodly hours and putting on more miles right? That is my self motivation speech.

So we got up with plenty more time than necessary. Dropped down to nearly the same elevation as the timber patch and then sidehilled over and slightly down to it... with a treestand. This is it man: 1 crack! There is nothing more depressing than being in range... oh so close to releasing an arrow, but never actually having a shot opportunity. And worse yet, knowing you're busted and now have to go back to square one and go find another bull. Opportunities for a good shot are TENFOLD from an elevated position. Since the bull is coming downhill he's already going to be above us as he enters the timber. So we make sure we do our best to be off to the side of his entry point a little, with plenty of time to get a stand in place, get up there nock an arrow and pray. A lot of you said get in there and ambush his arse! Heck yeah that's what we did but by going the extra mile we did our best to make sure we would also maximize the chance for a shot since like Bullnuts said... the %#@? probably would throw us a curveball. He didn't though and although a little later than previously, entered the timber at the exact same spot. Once he was out of the open though, like a dream he stopped to stand and see if anyone else was "in the house" and that was the last thing he ever did.

Morals of the story: Make things happen instead of waiting for them to. Go the extra mile and work hard... a lot of people would have skipped the treestand. Without it the story may have went more like "As soon as the hunter drew his bow the super spooky bull spotted him and was gone to the next county" Bedding areas, like Cnelk said... are not easy places to hunt.

I used to use stands more. Clients come in all shapes and sizes. When one wore out they were always receptive to the idea of taking a break in a stand.... instead of in the tent. If an elk comes to the area the shot opportunity is usually a good one. You're up high and usually see the elk before they see you. Plus you're not out of breath AND you know the shot distances because you've ranged the approach routes beforehand. I've put in a lot of sweat carrying stand into the mountains. Not miles and miles in but just far enough. Sometimes I'd pack them to my main camp and then hike them out from there. For guys who are in shape enough to keep covering ground it's not easy to sit in one place and wait. But I don't know anyone who has sat up a treestand that didn't say to themselves "If an elk comes by hear he is DEAD MEAT"

Swede old buddy... I knew you'd like "the rest of the story".

[Still Hunter]

Trees are for squirrels. I would have got him from the ground, but I don't shoot a bow.

[Indian Summer]

LOL... aw cmon Still... If it was one of my gun hunting scenarios I might have said:

So this bull was walking down the hill in the wide open at 750 yards so I cranked up my Leupold Mark V 6-20 Long Range Tactical Hubble Telescope and let him have it with my .300 Super Duper Ultra Magnum. Something tells me that story wouldn't have tickled your pickle either.

[Still Hunter]

You're right bud.

Picky aren't I?