Round Robin Q&A, Elknut Style #2

[WapitiTalk1]

All right campers, let's run this one again and see if there are some new questions. Ask a question (any question) related to elk hunting and get an answer. Let's establish some basic ground rules again......something like this:

1. The question can come from anyone but preferably, a elk hunter that doesn't have a ton of experience under their belts yet. Kind of targeting folks who may have a specific question that they've been pondering but haven't asked it yet, or, started started a full blown thread on the topic.

2. The answers can come from anyone who has an opinion, or, experience with the subject.

3. Let's try to keep the answers to three for each question so we can keep it rolling. Let's try not to move on to the next question until the previous one has received the afore mentioned "three" answers.

4. At any time, an Elknut may chime in and say "this is worthy of a full blown thread" and start said thread.

Let's see how it pans out this time. Had quite a few posts the last time we ran it.. Who's first? RJ

[JJ Overkill]

heres one ive been pondering, the lip bawl, when and where do you use it? I use it in cold calling setups ( breeding sequence). when trying to pull cows from a bull/ tick off a bull. I have also tried to use this to just call cows to me that I know are in my area. am I using this call to often?

[Swede]

Jerinmn: That is an interesting question. The use of the lip bawl bugle is to get the herd bull to believe you are trying to get his cows and come to take you on. It is a short range tool to be used when the cows are herded up. Where I hunt it is rarely used. At least I don't hear it being used and no one speaks of it. I have tried it several times in the forest, but mostly in my basement.
The lip bawl bugle is a tool. It is an interesting tool that I would compare with a Spiegel Releskop. In its place it is great. At other times it is useless.

[cnelk]

I would interject that the use of ANY type of calling [especially cold calling] can have difficult results
if you are trying to call elk back to where they have already been.

Can it be done?
Yes. But odds are not very good

[JohnFitzgerald]

Short lip bawls mixed with other sounds like chuckles and pants is the base foundation of the breeding sequence. Good for cold call or rutting bulls. Gives the impression of a restless herd. Works great on satellites and immature bulls.

If you're in close to a herd bull and want to pose a major threat, long and growly!

I've never used it to call cows in, but then again I would pass even if I did.

As a side note, consider battling bull sequence along with the breeding sequence.

[WapitiTalk1]

Ding! Solid responses to a good question. Thanks for getting this going Jeremy. Next question?

[JJ Overkill]

john that pretty much sounds like my base for the breeding sequence as well, chuckles, pants, bugles and the lip bawls. along with racking and stomping. this isn't my usual method of calling in cows.

[Huntrgathr]

Maybe this has been answered before but here goes...

What's the difference between the " popping grunt " and a bark ?

[WapitiTalk1]

What's the difference between the " popping grunt " and a bark ?

I believe the classic definition of each sound is 1. A bark is normally an alarm signal used by both cows and bulls (seems more by cows to me as there are more cow ears/eyes/noses in a herd setting and those are usually the ones that spot or smell a hunter or other danger). They are short, crisp, and oftentimes pretty shrill in sound, and, can be given in succession (several back to back). In my experience, these types of elk sounds normally are heard right before or during a mountain side clearing event 2. Popping grunt or nervous grunt is more of a curiosity or nervous sound, normally, but not always made by bulls (perhaps as I predominantly target bulls). These are "I know something is there... show yourself or I'm outa here" sounds. Normally only heard/made in single sounds. If a hunter doesn't respond to a popping grunt immediately with some type of elk sound, brush moving, etc., the bull won't stay around long. I've also heard and seen bulls kind of greet each other in thicker country with several popping grunts. I believe it's kind of the same thing as in the first example I gave but on a less excited level. Same thing though, the bulls are asking for visual or verbal verfication of who's there.

[Huntrgathr]

Thanks RJ ! That's a good explanation of the meaning of the sounds but I guess I shouldv'e been more specific - What is the difference in the actual sound ? When Paul makes the "poppin grunt" sound on the DVD's it sounds just like a bark to me...

[Swede]

Sometimes there is very little difference to my hearing. Often the alarm bark is repeated several times and it is immediately followed by the sounds of hooves retreating from the area.

[WapitiTalk1]

Alarm Bark (notice the body posture of the cow and shortness/crispness of the sound). Although only given in rapid succession once or twice during this video, it's clear the sounds are urgent in nature and these elk are ready to blast off to parts unknown.



Nervous/Popping grunt (a bit longer in duration and somewhat deeper; in a sense, sounds like a wimpy elongated grunt).

[ElkNut1]

Yes, it's repetitiousness of a sound that you look for & not so much the tone. Elk of different genders & age can use both these sounds in different ways, why? Because not all situations of a threat or something making them nervous are the same. There are 100's of reasons why an elk would use either of them. The point is a nervous/popping grunt is used in single note fashion, it is not repeated 6 times in 10 seconds. Yes it can be repeated but only as time goes by & they are not satisfied with no response or visual but they still hang around or even inch closer for a visual giving off a nervous grunt now & then. An alarm bark & they will put distance between you them pronto there's no hanging around when they feel threatened. So it's not the shrill bark tone you are looking for it's repetitiousness of the bark that separates it from the popping/nervous grunt.

ElkNut1

[JohnFitzgerald]

Also note worthy that I've experienced bulls using nervous grunts right after a bugle

[BrentLaBere]

Good time for me to bring this up.
I experienced something this year I did not understand. I will try to give a description the best I can and maybe someone can shed some light on it for me.
Morning #4 - It started by hiking to a high ridge separating 3 drainage's. The one to our west has new growth and old logging roads running through it so we positioned ourselves to glass the open areas. A steep draw with cover on both sides fed the bottom of the drainage. For 5 to 6 minutes we could hear a popping grunt, or at least what I thought was one. The grunts were spaced out roughly 20 to 30 seconds. Some being spaced out further. While we tried to figure out what was going on and how to approach it. To our right a cow came out of the timber behind us on the saddle between these two areas. She was acting very nervous in the open and constantly was coming out and going back into the timber. These two elk were a good 1/4 mile away from each other. Cow being on the ridge and (unknown elk) down below. After seeing the cow we wanted to make a move down to her and possibly get in close for a shot. As we started to move she darted back out of the timber at half speed, started down the mountain and froze starring at the noise below. After a couple minutes she nervously turned around and headed back into the timber. The popping grunts continued and we again moved closer. Again, the cow came out and headed down the mountain. Only this time she continued all the way down to the bottom. As we were making our way we heard a light bugle come from the timber she had just left. We dropped down, roughly the same path she took, hoping to find the elk that were making all of this noise. When we got to the bottom we didn't find any elk but found this.

Confusion more than a question. I thought this call meant show yourself....Maybe these elk were together before and got separated? Telling one to hurry up? Maybe there was more going on than I thought and didnt get the whole picture.

[JohnFitzgerald]

The Nerous Grunt means more than just show yourself. It means that the elk is nervous about something.....anything. When used the elk want a satisfactory visual or audio response.

Once, I called in a lone cow 3 times. Wasn't going to shoot her but decided to have a little fun. Every time she'd run off I would call her back in. When she got to the spot where the "other" cow was suppose to be she'd give a nervous grunt.

Another time, I called in a spike. We bumped him out of his bed and emmediately got on the calls. He stopped at 150 yards and came right back in. Around 80 yards he held up and gave us a nervous grunt. I returned with a couple whinny mews. The rest of the day we were hauling meat.

Tough to really say what happened during your encounter. But, one elk was nervous about something. Could there have been another hunter in there?

[WapitiTalk1]

BrentLaBere said "maybe these elk were together before and got separated? Telling one to hurry up? Maybe there was more going on than I thought and didnt get the whole picture."

The puny bugle in the timber where the cow came from could (as JF mentioned) have been another hunter, or, a smaller bull that had snagged the cow from her original herd. Her original group could have been down low where the elk noises were heard. Really very hard to say as there was so much ground involved in your experience, and, you weren't there at an earlier point in time to actually see why the various elk were where they were (or what had occurred). Just curious, was the cow that was nervously moving in and out of the timber vocal at all? It's entirely possible that the group had separated and the lower elk were merely trying to call the wayfaring cow back to them before they moved to bed. They couldn't see her but perhaps heard her? That's why I ask if the upper cow was vocal at all.

[Huntrgathr]

That's how I've always kind of thought of it. One brak/grunt means " unknown potential threat" and a series means " definite danger". It's an alarm in either instance to the other elk in the area that something's not right. That's why I thought it was such a cool trchnique when I first heard Paul describe it. So would you guys say that using the Nervous/Popping grunt to pull in a hung up bull is a " last resort" or " all in" type call ? Does it typically always put all the elk on alert and escalate the encounter ...?

Maybe the hung up bull thinks that HE is the threat when that call is used and that's why he comes in...?

[BrentLaBere]

"Just curious, was the cow that was nervously moving in and out of the timber vocal at all? " - Phantom16, not that I was aware of. It is possible but I don't believe she was. There wasn't a strong wind or other noise to drown it out so I think I would have heard it.

"Could there have been another hunter in there?" - John, This is the first conclusion we came to until we saw the cow. It then peeked our curiosity and we had to pursue. We were on the ridge an hour before shooting light and did not see another head light or hunter walk in. It is possible the came up the drainage below us from the road but why come in that far and continually give off the popping grunt? That's what didn't make sense to me even if it was a hunter.


- Phantom16 said, "The puny bugle in the timber where the cow came from could (as JF mentioned) have been another hunter, or, a smaller bull that had snagged the cow from her original herd."
It was in fact a smaller bull and that's why I was leaning towards this cow getting separated from her group. After our 1000 plus vertical ' descent and then climb again that morning we had worked pretty hard. My hunting partner didn't want to check out where the bugle came from with me so he sat down for a nap. Time is around 11 am and the thermals are going up hill fairly strong at this point so my approach from above was perfect......well not so much because this elk was bedded a lot higher on the mountain than I anticipated. Busting out of its bed I heard the noise of an elk vacating the area. Disappointed and in a "whinny" mood myself I got on my cow call and acted like I was in need of a companion. Sat down and enjoyed the shade before my hike back up to the top. I caught a little bit of movement and the bull was standing off to my left at 23 yards.
Sorry for the ramble but my point was that it was in fact a smaller bull and obviously looking for elk. Maybe even the cow he lost earlier that morning.

Side note to the ramble: Only reason I got on my calls the way I did is because I remembered your story about that spike before John. Good stuff.

[JohnFitzgerald]

"Just curious, was the cow that was nervously moving in and out of the timber vocal at all? " - Phantom16, not that I was aware of. It is possible but I don't believe she was. There wasn't a strong wind or other noise to drown it out so I think I would have heard it.

"Could there have been another hunter in there?" - John, This is the first conclusion we came to until we saw the cow. It then peeked our curiosity and we had to pursue. We were on the ridge an hour before shooting light and did not see another head light or hunter walk in. It is possible the came up the drainage below us from the road but why come in that far and continually give off the popping grunt? That's what didn't make sense to me even if it was a hunter.


- Phantom16 said, "The puny bugle in the timber where the cow came from could (as JF mentioned) have been another hunter, or, a smaller bull that had snagged the cow from her original herd."
It was in fact a smaller bull and that's why I was leaning towards this cow getting separated from her group. After our 1000 plus vertical ' descent and then climb again that morning we had worked pretty hard. My hunting partner didn't want to check out where the bugle came from with me so he sat down for a nap. Time is around 11 am and the thermals are going up hill fairly strong at this point so my approach from above was perfect......well not so much because this elk was bedded a lot higher on the mountain than I anticipated. Busting out of its bed I heard the noise of an elk vacating the area. Disappointed and in a "whinny" mood myself I got on my cow call and acted like I was in need of a companion. Sat down and enjoyed the shade before my hike back up to the top. I caught a little bit of movement and the bull was standing off to my left at 23 yards.
Sorry for the ramble but my point was that it was in fact a smaller bull and obviously looking for elk. Maybe even the cow he lost earlier that morning.

Side note to the ramble: Only reason I got on my calls the way I did is because I remembered your story about that spike before John. Good stuff.

Just seems like a lot of unkowns to determine why the hunter/bull/cow gave a nervous grunt. Honestly, I don't think I would have hunted the encounter any differently than you did.

What I failed to add this time was how I also used the nervous grunts during the cow and spike encounter. If I had list my sounds in order of frequency, Location Bugle would be #1 and Nervous Grunt would be a close 2nd.

RJ, Should we spawn another thread on this topic or do I hear a ding?

[WapitiTalk1]

Ding! Yah JF, let's get a new question going. I do vote "yes" to starting a new thread on interpretation of barks and popping grunts. Seems to be creating some great discussion. Perhaps BrentLaBere can start one up and provide his experience again on the mountainside to get the new thread rolling. Others may wish to jump in with their experiences with one or both of these sounds and how they reacted (or how they used one or both of these sounds in a hunting situation... although I can't image why one would "bark" at an elk but who knows). Great stuff!

Allrighty, who's got a new question

[WapitiTalk1]

OK, I've got one. What do you experienced tree standers look for, consider, when placing a tree stand during the elk rut? I mean geez, there are a lot of trees in the Idaho mountains I hunt and 2014 will be my first year ever deploying the "death from above" method

[Swede]

I look for tree in just the right location, that is large enough for my stand, my day pack and me. It is good to have one that does not shake, or move around in the wind. I still like a little rock and roll, but not when I am in my stand. I often snack, read or play a little Sudoku, so I need the tree to facilitate a good bow hanger. Some sunshine in the morning can be helpful to warm me up, but I do not want it to shine on me either. Is that what you were wanting to know RJ?

[WapitiTalk1]

I look for tree in just the right location, that is large enough for my stand, my day pack and me. It is good to have one that does not shake, or move around in the wind. I still like a little rock and roll, but not when I am in my stand. I often snack, read or play a little Sudoku, so I need the tree to facilitate a good bow hanger. Some sunshine in the morning can be helpful to warm me up, but I do not want it to shine on me either. Is that what you were wanting to know RJ?

I walked into that one Just for that, I'm gonna go home and "crimp" a page in your book A bit more please. What are some basic location "site" considerations for stand placement?

[Swede]

RJ is right. Unless a person just want to roost in a tree, there is a lot more to finding a good tree stand location for the rut time, than a little sunshine on a cold morning. In fact sunshine is a consideration, but usually I try to avoid locations where I am lit up so to speak.
Elk move around more during the rut than in the early season, and since it is significantly cooler they drink less. Most of the wallowing is done, so water holes are just not as productive. They are still a factor to consider. History of elk activity and travel patterns in an area is a good guide for late September. Look more for spots along active travel routes. Places where multiple trails come together, saddles with trails going through, and swales with trails are all good candidates for stands. Try to find a pinch point that brings elk closer. Many times I have sat at a water hole and had them walk by and never come in. Because I was in their path of travel I filled my tag. Elk will be out feeding longer late in the season, so it is even more productive to be in your stand during the late morning and afternoon.

[WapitiTalk1]

Good stuff. Thanks swede.

[WapitiTalk1]

Ding! Who's got the next question?

[cnelk]

You are sitting on stand or quietly at a water hole or over a wallow

A coyote comes within range.

What do you do?

[JohnFitzgerald]

I'd pass.

[stringunner]

For me this really depends upon the time of day and my current confidence level in my stand location. If I'm sitting and feeling really good that there is potential for an elk on this day and during this time, I pass. If it's mid day and I'm sort of just lazily sitting, I probably shoot. When I sit I do have what I consider to be peak times (based on past scouting and trail cam scouting) so I'm probably not going to cause a disturbance if I feel I'm in one of those potential peak times. But keep in mind, elk can come in whenever so again it comes back to me and my confidence level in the stand at the current moment.

[Swede]

I have shot and I have passed. I am about where Stringunner is on yotes. It may have to do more with how frustrated I am getting than anything. I sometimes feel the same about legal deer.

[BrentLaBere]

I would have to pass on the yote. Taking care of it would mean less hunting time and for not much benefit. I surely don't eat them and the hide probably isn't in its best shape yet. Content with just being a spectator and enjoying the action.

[WapitiTalk1]

Ding! Who's got another elky question?

[Swede]

Why do elk not have a belly button like people do?

[ctdad]

They have an umbilical scar that is further up the abdomen than a person's. It is very flat and hard to find without shaving.

[Mojostylee24]

When "map scouting" a chosen unit what do you elk killers look for first to narrow down potential hot spots? I know I need to start this process now for fall of '14. I have only seen one elk at a great distance in 2 seasons of hunting.


-Mojo

[Swede]

Mojo: It really depends on your hunting style and the season you hunt. If you are hunting from a tree stand in through the regular archery season, you need to look for places that will either draw elk or funnel them in. Water holes with wallows are really good early, if the area is a little arid. If you are calling later in the archery season, then look for denser cover places where elk are likely to go when pushed. If you want to spot and stalk then look for habitat that can be viewed from a distance as they move through cover.
If I had never been to a spot and I would look over the area in Google Earth and Acme Mapper and find several candidates then do some calling of knowledgeable people to determine how good those areas are and ask for other possible recommendations. Once I narrowed down my search I would go back to GE and select spots to check out.
When you get out on the ground quickly eliminate areas that show little or no evidence of recent elk activity. I can see this is a problem for a person not familiar with an area and with elk habits. I am sure we can get more specific if you tell us when and how you plan to hunt. Hope this is a start.

[JohnFitzgerald]

+1 on Swedes answer.

Addition, a lot of the elk we hunt are on a geographic rotation. If you have good signs in a location but don't physically see them, don't give up. Three days later you could be overflowing with elk. Anybody ever have multiple bulls bugling in an area only have none the next day? Figure out the feeding circuits and you'll be in elk every day.

So when you're map scouting, make sure to note worth spots around your target area.

[Mojostylee24]

Thanks guys. I plan on hunting during archery season here in CO. I think I will be best suited to running and gunnning or calling later in the season. I ve picked GMU 18 to focus on...

[BrentLaBere]

I had this one before my October hunt and not many chimed in so I will give it another go. Reason it comes up again is because of the little Elk 101 piece in Bugle Magazine.

How much snow will an elk tolerate? This is a broad question so please give examples of what you have experienced. I found it interesting how the storms this past fall moved the elk around. Hard packed snow versus soft fluffy or the heavy and wet. I found blizzard like conditions with a foot or more of snow will in fact move the elk herd. All of them? Not from my findings. There will be elk that stick it out in the storm and the tough conditions. Most seek out greener pastures, literally. They moved over two to three ridge lines on south facing slopes where the storm had not hit.
How much snow is too much snow?
Is it a storm that moves them instead of the snow itself?
We will keep this in the archery season.

[Swede]

Brent: Here is what I observed from my years working with the Forest Service. I would say elk will start moving, if they have a place to go to,when you get a couple feet of packed snow. Where do they go? If there are open areas nearby they go where food is easier to obtain and they do not have to struggle as much to get around. The first places are often open south facing slopes. These south facing slopes are the first places the elk will return to in the Spring also. Some elk, usually old bulls, will hang back and not move until well after the others have left for easier foraging. If you have a logging operation, where trees are being felled and food is brought down to where they can get to it, then the elk will hang around in 3-4 feet of snow and forage as soon as the loggers leave in the afternoon. I am sure Elknut can also say how long elk will stay if they are fed. From my observation I would say this can go on all winter if the logging is extensive. We shut off the logging in the early Spring when the ground became saturated and muddy. If you have a severe winter, and there is nowhere for the elk to go and the snow is deep, the elk will become malnourished, loose all of their energy reserves, and die in several feet of snow. Often they get down in some ravine or creek and are too weak to get out.