What was this bull saying?

[RockChucker30]

This year I heard a bull bugle and give a series of chuckles. At least I think they were chuckles....they didn't thump real hard, and he ran 7-9 out. That's supposed to be a bull talking to his cows right? Well, I was glassing the bull in an open park at the time and there were no cows. He was in a bachelor group with a spike, a 4 point, and a 5 point. He was definitely the dominant bull in that group.

There was also a big 5X5 herd bull with 7 cows in the area, but I didn't see the herd anywhere around. And the bull I'm talking about was bigger than the herd bull so I imagine he was just waiting for the cows to get closer to estrous so he could push the smaller bull out.

I've been wondering ever since what he was saying? Why would he give chuckles when in a bachelor group? BTW, this is the bull I wound up taking the next day.

[WapitiTalk1]

It sure sounds like he was chuckling and attempting to urgently call cows to him. He doesn't have to have cows under his charge to do this. I encounter it every year including this year. A bull who chuckles or bugles with chuckles is saying "hey girl(s,) get over here now"! Many times this is what I would hear this past season from both herd and satellites when I was close to them and cow calling. My reaction would be to work the wind and go in the bull's direction and comply with his request to "come my way". You'll also hear them making this bull sound (chuckling) when the bull is just "fishing" as I call it. There may be some lone cows, or cows with a herd bull as you've mentioned, that you couldn't see or hear that the young bull was trying to influence to come to his side. Just my .02. RJ

[RockChucker30]

RJ, the bull chuckling was the biggest bull in the area, but he was still in a bachelor group. I watched him feed very lazily across the park for 20-30 minutes after he bugled and then I lost him in some timber where I think he bedded down. When he bugled and chuckled the other bulls he was with didn't even pick up their heads to look his way- they just kept on feeding. There weren't any cows within 2-300 yards of him because I could see that far all around him.

I'm wondering if he was just feeling his oats that morning - feeling the beginnings of the rut? Or using it as a social call?

[Swede]

I too have heard bulls make calls that I had no idea why the were making the sounds they did. I suspect your bull was reminding the other bulls know who was top dog, and not to mess with him. He was not agitated so his grunts were not too strong.

[JohnFitzgerald]

I agree with RJ. Sounds like typical pre-rut activity.

[ElkNut1]

Chuckles are generally used & heard as a communication or "wanting" purpose! The same as you asking your friend, your wife or your kids to "come on over here" -- You did not change your thought or question when asking it to any of the 3 listeners! Elk are no different, Chuckles are not reserved only to cows! Chuckling is just another form of communication used by bulls generally, cows can also imitate this sound but it's rare!

So when Chuckling is heard a bull can be expressing his feelings or conveying a message to other elk within earshot! When Chuckling is generally heard it is during elk seasons since this is when most of us are around elk! They use this sound year around though!

The bull you saw & heard give off the Chuckling could have done it for a variety of reasons? Maybe he could hear or smell those cows you referred to being in the area? Elk can hear & smell much more than we can. Too, he could have just been feeling the urges of the rut coming on or desiring cows , things can change for elk like turning on & off a light switch! (grin)

Chuckling is an "invite" or "come on over here" Too it can be used towards another bull or group of elk. We often hear it when a bull is gathering cows together or calling a single cow to him such as when we are cow calling as hunters, many times his response is Chuckling or a short bugle & Chuckling in an effort for this cow (us) to come his way!

ElkNut1

[mongopino915]

He is very calm and chuckling with other satellites around him means he is openly inviting/accepting other elk (both cows/bulls) with no threat. Like Paul said, his behavior/mood can change very quickly depending the state of the ladies.

During the pre-rut as well as during the rut, a calm bull that bugles/chuckles and hesitant to come to the calling or just slowly walks away is typically the dominant bull within the surrounding. It is typically the spikes and rag horns that come into the calls quickly to check things out. The more dominant bull will have the tendency to call you over, even if you are the bull with cows. Don't get me wrong, a mature dominant bull will come into the calls but will most likely ninja his way in down wind to scent other elk and/or look for elk from a distance. If he does not smell/see other elk, he will quietly slip away without you knowing that he was there.

[Swede]

I think I am reading the situation a little differently than others. We know any other elk in the area are a minimum of 200-300 yards away. Since they are not seen or heard they are probably farther away and could be much farther. I see no evidence that the large bull described as feeding "very lazily" with the bachelor group is calling to some unseen and unheard herd of elk that includes another bull. There was no answer that was heard by Rockchucker either. It appears to me he is simply interacting with his immediate group. Seriously: Why would he be calling cows to his bachelor group? No cows came and the 5x5 possibly out there somewhere isn't going to serve them up. It looks to me that the big bull is just communicating with some younger studs he is still hanging with.
Paul if you or others are seeing something I am missing, please clarify.

[WapitiTalk1]

I think I am reading the situation a little differently than others. We know any other elk in the area are a minimum of 200-300 yards away. Since they are not seen or heard they are probably farther away and could be much farther. I see no evidence that the large bull described as feeding "very lazily" with the bachelor group is calling to some unseen and unheard herd of elk that includes another bull. There was no answer that was heard by Rockchucker either. It appears to me he is simply interacting with his immediate group. Seriously: Why would he be calling cows to his bachelor group? No cows came and the 5x5 possibly out there somewhere isn't going to serve them up. It looks to me that the big bull is just communicating with some younger studs he is still hanging with.
Paul if you or others are seeing something I am missing, please clarify.

Just my .02 but a bull can hear a lot farther than we can and 200-300 yard is not far for a bull to hear a cow mew. I get resonses from bulls farther than that when I start off a cold calling session. They have incredible hearing. I've gotta believe that a chuckling bull during any time of the pre-rut through early to mid October is a bull calling cows. As Paul mentioned "maybe he could hear or smell those cows you referred to being in the area? Elk can hear & smell much more than we can." When I hear chuckling with perhaps bugles to my cow calling it's a bull (either herd or satellite) inviting me over, or, when I hear unsolicited chuckles (with or without bugles) again, it's a bull calling for cows. I may be wrong in broad brushing this but in my experience, they're calling for the girls... RJ

[ElkNut1]

Swede, I wasn't there so can not put my finger on what was going on through that bulls mind or what his exact intentions were? This is why I shared a few possibilities & not just one! Chuckling is a non intimidation sound, that we do know, why he felt the desire to use it at the time he did, not sure? If the thread starter had cow called to these bulls at anytime then yes this bull could have extended an invitation to her. Everytime bulls chuckle does not mean they get what they are asking for, bulls try calling cows from other bulls on a regular basis throughout the rut but rare are their desires fulfilled!

ElkNut1

[Swede]

Thanks guys for the feedback on this. I can't be sure either what the bull was trying to communicate. I certainly agree thet just because no cows came, or because Rockchucker did not hear them, is no proof that he wasn't trying to call them. I remember Larry D. Jones used to teach the same call Rockchucker heard to try to call bulls in. I don't remember Larry describing the difference between grunts and chuckles, and back in 1991 it sounded all the same to me. I just remember that his emphasis was on getting close in order to get the bull to come. Again thanks, I like the discussion and hope it is helpful. In our wildlife management class, a long time ago, the prof. said there are two words we need to be very careful on how we use them. Those two words are "always and never". As sure as we use those words some animal will prove us wrong.

[Swede]

For RJ and Paul I have an additional question. Based on your observations, does it seem likely a bull would call for cows while he is still within a bachelor group? Thanks in advance for your response.

[ElkNut1]

Yes, it's a very common occurrence!

ElkNut1

[Swede]

Interesting. I have never seen that or made that connection. I have seen bulls with cows run off other bulls, but never observed a bull in a bachelor group calling in cows. I have observed many lone bulls calling cows, but the bull bunches I see appear to be breaking up early in the archery season before the cows are gathered. Thanks

[ElkNut1]

Swede, most likely the reason for not noticing such calling by one or more satellite bulls within their own little groups is you do mostly treestand hunting. We are mostly runners & gunners here & cover 6-12 miles a day, all depends on the hunt that day! But in doing so we can come upon many different encounters. As the rut picks up & cows show signs of estrus both Herd Bulls & Satellites will do their best to try & attract cows their way, this is done by Bugling freestyle, this means bulls will incorporate all types of sounds in advertising/displaying themselves & position to encourage cows to come their way to consider them as breeders! Chuckling at this time is very common place in asking these cows over, they almost will yearn for them & it can be noted in their sounds. It's not uncommon to use cow calling of different sorts & pull one or more satellites your way as they come to your calling & yes they can chuckle at you in hopes of bringing you out to them!

I could go on & on about different scenarios where chuckling is used but I'm sure you get the idea! (grin) Thanks!

ElkNut/Paul

[RockChucker30]

I'll add a little more background....

There was a 5 point with 7 cows and two calves in the area, but that morning I believe they were across the creek on a large timbered bench. I saw them there the night before, and heard them leave before daylight. So, they would likely be a half mile or more away from where the bachelor group was.

There was a cow, calf, and spike lower down in the park that I saw earlier that morning. I think they crossed the creek as well, but I'm not sure.

The only place additional elk could have been was in a small patch of timber above the bulls, or behind the ridge.

I never called to the bulls. I heard a locator bugle and headed that way, then spotted them. While I was watching he gave a bugle with chuckles, then went back to eating. The other bulls didn't even look up at him. I watched them for another 30 minutes or so. I lost the big bull in some timber where I think he bedded, but the other bulls continued on to cross the creek.

[Swede]

I think this is an interesting and hopefully educational discussion. I too am trying to get a better understanding of what is happening in Rockchucker's senerio. I have seen the situation Paul describes many times during the rut. BTW Paul is correct about not seeing this often from a tree stand. Tree stand hunting is a different experience. I love tree stand hunting, but I don't live there. LOL It just seem like it at times. I will consider that possibility when I can get my mail there. The problem I am having is, that Paul appears to be discussing a situation that differs from what I understand Rockchucker is describing. I could be mistaken, but I see this event happening as a very early season encounter when most bulls are still in bachelor groups. It is a time when the big boys allow the lesser ones to form herds that they will soon take over. It is the prospect of calling for cows to a bachelor bunch in the early season that bothers me. Is it possible the big bull was just trying to keep track of the cows and putting the 5x5 on notice? Paul appears to be describing a late prerut or rutting scenerio after the bull groups have broken up.

[RockChucker30]

Swede, I enjoy these discussions too.....it's funny that grown men can talk this long about what a single bull was saying on a given day. There must be something wrong with us!

I'm leaning toward him just feeling his oats so to speak. It was still early morning, and they were ONLY bugling early morning and late evening - not at all during the day. I think he may have just been announcing himself, but wasn't serious about it.

What is very interesting to me is the other bulls complete lack of reaction. It's like they knew he didn't mean anything by it.

[Swede]

I have seen many elk totally ignore a call. That includes both cow calls and bugles. I tell the story every so often about a cow I ended up killing, near the end of the season, about 15 years ago. I knew where she stayed, but did not want her early in the season, so I would call to her to experiment. I was on the ground, within 50 yards of her on several occasions. I started to wonder if she was deaf. She did not stop when I called. She did not look up or around. She acted as though nothing happened. I have had other elk pay no attention to my calls too, but she ignored me more than any other.

[ElkNut1]

Yes, elk will be elk, I seriously believe that's all this bull was doing. Changing hormones can do this! (grin) Because an elk sounds off one way or another & other close by elk do not give a hoot doesn't really mean anything! Elk are just that way outside of rutting adventures!!

ElkNut1