Herd bull or satellite?

[cnelk]

Here are a couple pics I took of a decent 5x6 bull a few years ago.
This is a good representative of a good bull where I hunt...

Is this a herd bull where you hunt? Or satellite bull?

[hornart]

I would say that is probably a herd bull,but depending on your areas that could also be a satellite bull. If most of your bulls average that size

[Swede]

This is definiteiy a herd bull. Two years ago I killsd a 4x4 late September which was herd bull. I felt sorry for the cows that had settled for him so I shot him so they could go on and find a better bull. It was the last Saturday of the season, so I did not take the time to discuss the decision with the herd before I shot.

[eltaco]

Depends on the year in my area. Two years ago this bull was a satellite, but last year the cows would take any action they could get!

[2OArchery]

Sattelite.

[cnelk]

but last year the cows would take any action they could get!

I met some of those cows one evening....

[stringunner]

I don't know that a bull's size is always indicative of them being the top bull or not... in the area I hunt I have seen bulls bigger than that (the one pictured) dogging the herd trying to steal cows while the "herd bull" is a rangy looking 5x5 that is quite a bit smaller both antler and body.....but boy could that 5x5 fight. Never seen anything like it.

[elkaholic]

The bulls attitude has a lot to do with it as does the caliber of bulls in the area. I have seen bulls similiar to this be the herd bulls but in others they are outcasts. Totally dependant on the area.

[elkmtngear]

Depends....if a bull has just one or two cows, is he a "herd bull", or just a satellite who got lucky?

[Swede]

Jeff that is a good question you asked. Please let me take a stab at answering. In the Ochoco/Mahheur zone, where I believe you will be hunting this year, all bulls make up only 9.4% of the elk herds. That is taken from ODF&Ws latest 2011 statistics. That means there would be 10.6 cows for every bull including spikes. Based on over 20 years experience hunting that same zone, I can safely say that fewer than 20% of the bulls are major 5 or 6 pointers. That means there are at least 53 other elk for every large bull. Oregon has a management objective of maintaining ten bulls per 100 elk. They believe that is adequate to maintain healthy herds. Based on those numbers it is easy to see that there are many smaller happy bulls.

[>>>---WW---->]

Around these parts he has some serious potential to be a herd bull. But I did see one that could have been his twin brother last year that wasn't cowed up. Reguardless, either one of them would sure look good on the end of my arrow.

[cnelk]

Thanks for the replies guys!

Lets branch off just a bit...

What is your definition of an elk herd? How many cows [with a bull] does it take for you to say..."There is a herd bull with cows!"

[ElkNut1]

Where we generally hunt, there's a good chance that would be a herd bull! It could go either way, no way would I pass on that bull though!

My definition of a herd bull? If you shoot it then it has to have at least 5 cows, if I shoot then one cow is good!! (big grin)

ElkNUt1

[Swede]

cnelk, it depends on when I see them. In early to mid September I could see a small bull with 20 cows. but he is just a pretender waiting for a bigger bull to move him out. In late September at peak rut, I would go with a much smaller number say 3 or 4. Those smaller bulls can't hold onto a large harem, but the big boys can't hold all of the cows either at least where I hunt. In the end I suspect it depends to a great extent on where you are hunting.

[elkmtngear]

Swede,
Those numbers seem to make sense, or at least it explains what I am used to seeing when I elk hunt. I have killed a couple of small 5x5 bulls that had a single cow, but they both acted very aggressive when they believed another bull was moving in (lip bawl bugles, stomping the ground, charging in to meet the rival bull). So, subdominant bulls can be pretty good "posers" when love is involved.

Best of Luck,
Jeff

[foxvalley]

Where I hunt it's mostly dark timber and I think the herd bull has a hard time keeping a large harem. The average herd that I see is 1 bull, 1 or 2 cows.

[rjdumas]

If I see a bull like that where I hunt that a dead bull. I'm praying opening morning I see one like that or a cow ha ha

[ElkManDan]

Herd bull one day, Satellite the next. These are terms that really don't have a true definition. If a bull with a Herd walks into my calls and I shoot him a raghorn bull steps in and takes over his cows by most people's definition he is now the herd bull. Some define a herd bull as a wise old bull who does a good job at keeping his herd together and is able to breed cows year after year avoiding his untimely demise. I have found that regardless of how many cows a bull has most bulls under 4 years old (5pts, small 6pts, raghorns, and spikes) are much easier to pull away from their cows. Bulls that I consider to be herd bulls are the mature bulls that have a nice herd of cows (10+) gathered that have obviously learned how to manage a herd and keep them safe and in tact, not a bull that has some cows by default because big daddy finally made his final mistake. BTW, I've taken some raghorns, 5pts, and a six with my bow and one herd bull with my rifle but I'm still looking for that Wise old herd bull that I can get into bow range!!!

[eltaco]

Herd bull one day, Satellite the next. These are terms that really don't have a true definition. If a bull with a Herd walks into my calls and I shoot him a raghorn bull steps in and takes over his cows by most people's definition he is now the herd bull. Some define a herd bull as a wise old bull who does a good job at keeping his herd together and is able to breed cows year after year avoiding his untimely demise. I have found that regardless of how many cows a bull has most bulls under 4 years old (5pts, small 6pts, raghorns, and spikes) are much easier to pull away from their cows. Bulls that I consider to be herd bulls are the mature bulls that have a nice herd of cows (10+) gathered that have obviously learned how to manage a herd and keep them safe and in tact, not a bull that has some cows by default because big daddy finally made his final mistake. BTW, I've taken some raghorns, 5pts, and a six with my bow and one herd bull with my rifle but I'm still looking for that Wise old herd bull that I can get into bow range!!!

Maybe if you'd stop shooting them in August you'd know the difference between a herd bull and satellite! your bulls didn't even get the chance to decide what they were going to be!

[ElkManDan]

Maybe if you'd stop shooting them in August you'd know the difference between a herd bull and satellite! your bulls didn't even get the chance to decide what they were going to be!

Alright, sorry, I'll take my time this year but you know what than means, Less time for me to call for you in Colorado

[cnelk]

Maybe if you'd stop shooting them in August you'd know the difference between a herd bull and satellite! your bulls didn't even get the chance to decide what they were going to be!

Now that was funny!!!

[bearman da man]

Far as I'm concerned, it depends on early or later part of the season where I hunt. Late August/Early Sept., a satelite bull who is a "wannabe herd bull" and think's he has the "right stuff" because he has two yearling cows but when the rut comes around, he learns that his horns aren't going to be clipped that year.