CAMO or NO CAMO??

[N5J]

Paul,

A while back you were talking about dumping the CAMO what ever happened? If you went without CAMO, notice any changes in your elk hunting experience?

N5J

James

[Elktracker]

I remember the talk on this, wasnt it on Bowsite? I too would be interested in your results Paul.

Josh

[Freebird134]

x3
I am pretty jaded by the camo industry

[eltaco]

Id be very curious about this as well. I've scouted elk with solid colors and had great success... even some closer than I wanted encounters.

I figure there must be some amazing fashion show somewhere in the woods that I wasn't invited to, because all of the sudden guys have the urge to spend more money on a day's worth of camo than their entire hunting bow or rifle setup! Even worse, if my clothing is more than a year old, I'm apparently violating fashion code, and subpar for elk success!

[ElkNut1]

eltaco & others! LOL!!! "if my clothing is more than a year old, I'm apparently violating fashion code, and subpar for elk success!" Now that's a well thought out statement! (grin)

I'll dig up the info for that years hunt guys! Be ready for a bit of reading though! Thanks!

ElkNut1

[Freebird134]

Dig it up Paul! We can handle some reading

I was all set to switch to drab colored backpacking clothes this year, then Sitka sent me a brand new pair of pants (warranty replacement) and I got some other stuff as gifts. Now I'll be decked out in Optifade open country---so you can call me a hypocrite! I don't think camo hurts, but it's so over emphasized.

Even if I switched to non-camo for elk and mule deer, I'd probably keep wearing camo for stand hunting whitetail (and birds of course). I suspect camo is most effective in those whitetail ranges (5-25 yards). But I don't really know.

[>>>---WW---->]

I'll give you a quick reply before Paul comes in here with the long winded version! (grin)

I have hunted in bluejeans and a long sleve T-shirt for years. Heaven forbid, all cotton!!!! And I have seen nothing to make me believe that camo makes one little bit of difference to elk.

It is movement that gives you away, not your formal attire. Thats pretty much the long and the short of it.

[ElkNut1]

Here it is guys!!! I hope you enjoy the read!>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Remember, I'm not saying wear camo or don't wear it, I'm merely sharing our findings on our elk hunts!!


Well, with Sept. over, I was in the field aprox 23 days this year out of the 32 days. I wore a pair of faded out 4 year old Sitka semi camo pants, that's the best I can describe them! I wore those because they had good wicking features & there was rain the 1st part of the season & I just stuck with them the entire time as I had all my daily calls & stuff in the cargo style pockets!

For a top I wore a grey medium light wool pull over long sleeve shirt on occasion or a green mock turtle-neck long sleeve shirt in most situations as my outer layer. I had a Sagecreek faded out camo hat & no face paint or mask at anytime during the elk hunts. I only wore camo gloves the 1st part of the mornings on the cooler days & none on non-cool days!

I washed these clothes 3 times during those 23 days & I used no cover up scents or scent-lok of any kind. We hunt the wind exclusively! (grin)

I saw zero ill effects while wearing these clothes in comparison to other years of wearing camo head to toe! As I've always stated it's ones movement during crunch time (close encounters) that gives a hunter away regardless of his choice of camo or detergents! You must play the wind religiously & not have any movements when elk are in a position to spot slightest unusual movement! By no means am I suggesting anyone not to wear camo, it's a personal choice, I'm just sharing my experiences without it!

I helped pack out all the bulls we took this year in this same clothing with no washings between a couple of them as there was no time! I would wear these types of clothes again with no problem & feel as blended in as if I belonged there!

I will now share stories of elk coming our way to our calling & how close they came without me being detected.

EXAMPLE-1
I remember on opening morning things were very slow! My Son & I Paul Jr. (bowelkdown) were in a small draw, we were on one side & could easily look over on the other side as it was only 100yds or so away! We decided to do a short setup with some light cow calling & I threw in the estrus buzz, within minutes we could hear pounding hooves coming our way, it was a calf & ma heading towards us. I was in front of my Son & he was behind me 5 yds back. The Cow & Calf stopped 17yds away from me staring the area down looking for these elk they heard, they looked right passed us both, I was crouched down not moving a hair with nothing between myself & them, after 30 seconds of looking they finally moved off in search of that group they heard. We held tight in hopes a bull was in tow but it was not to be!

EXAMPLE-2
It was around Sept 5th, we had been covering ground that morning in hopes of hearing some calling or trying to get them to respond! We came across a large East/West facing draw, after glassing it well we picked out 20+ cows & 1 spike in the group, not one branched antlered bull to be found. These elk were in the 500yd to 650yd range away. We stopped & I took a few photos of us there & you can see the outfit I'm wearing! We sat there for over an hour after the photos & not one elk could care less about our being there! Not a big thing but thought I'd share all happenings I could remember!

EXAMPLE-3
We will move to Sept. 10th, I was hunting alone this day & it was a drizzly & foggy morning! I was heading to an area we call the Elk Trail, I had been walking aprox 1/2 mile in when I heard a distant bugle, my 1st of the year, I headed that direction & was following some very fresh tracks of a few elk that were ahead of me but I could only see 50yds or so due to the heavy drizzly fog! I was pushing my way through 12' high alders & very dense wet brush with tons of downfall, I'm now aprox 1 mile in. As I try staying close to this massive rock out-cropping doing my best to follow these tracks I come next to a 20' evergreen to my right & 8' high brush in front of me with small openings, I'm getting fairly wet as I touch this crap as I push my way through, all of a sudden an elk jumps up aprox 25 yds away & starts running away from me, I give a quick nervous/popping grunt with my voice & he stops at 38yds broadside but behind enough brush to cover his vitals, I'm now looking through these evergreen branches & the brush is concealing parts of him, I know he wants to see something so before he gets too nervous I give a voice groan/grunt that lasted about 3/4 second & draw, as soon as I do this he steps forward 2 steps to get a better look at this bull he can hear but not see, I guess him at 40yds & shoot, hear the arrow smackkkk! As you can see this bull had no issues with my non-camo attire!

We had several more instances in the next 10 days of being close to cows & calves where we watched them, many under 100yds & no issues come to mind!

EXAMPLE-4
My Son & I go in fairly deep this day aprox 4 1/2 miles in, we hear 2 bugles in the drainage below us that answer our bugles. We move in silently cutting the distance & realize this is a couple satellites we are hearing, we get aprox 80yds away & setup. My Son is to my right 25 yds out front. I give a medium sized short bull scream with a series of chuckles & receive an instant response. I start raking a tree & thrashing dried limbs in a controlled manner & can hear one of the bulls coming through the thick brush & sparse pines & he is circling us but has a long ways to go to get around us. I see the bull coming from my right to left 60 yds out, as soon as I see him ducking his rack under some low hanging stuff I motion my son to go to his left so he can see this bull coming our way, at the same time I retreat 30 more yds back into cover & bugle & rake a bit more. At no time does the bull catch either of us moving as he is occupied with positioning, problem is he's in range now but will not get out of the thick cover. Opportunity gone, for now!

EXAMPLE-5
We return to this same area 2 days later after giving it a rest! We are now in the 4 1/2 miles & bugle from above a massive rock out-cropping into this area where we had the previous encounter & receive zero response! We thought we heard some crunching so we move down towards the bottom & setup looking to the west expecting (hoping-grin) an elk to appear, nothing happens! So I give off a squeeze on a hoochie mama & 2 cow sounds from a mouth reed & scream a short bugle as if this bull (me) is trying to keep his cows close by, I give another squeeze & 2 more cow sounds with the reed & almost immediately we hear hooves coming our way from the North East which is nearly behind us!!! As this elk comes from a very small fingered draw towards the sounds we spot him at 55yds, my Son is now behind me & to my right as he did not have time to move up as this bull came in fast. I am in the wide open ground with no cover at all & my bugle in my right hand but am on my knees sorta hunched over. The bull looks right at me or in my direction as he's searching for this small group. (good luck there buddy-grin) There is a small 8" diameter pine between the bull & I for whatever that's worth? (grin) I am poised & ready to give a nervous grunt to stop this bull as he weaves in & out of the timber to stop him if needed as I see this bull heading right towards my Son, BIG MISTAKE!!! All of a sudden I hear my Son give a loud Nervous Grunt with his voice & I see this once walking bull freeze up instantly in a small shooting lane, I look ever so slowly toward my Son & see he's at full draw. I then look at the bull with no quick movement just in time to see the arrow sink deep into his side! Once again, the lack of camo was not an issue! If on any of these encounters either of us had moved in a jerking motion it would have been game over, when movement is necessary you must do it slow & under control!

EXAMPLE -6
There were other small encounters that do not warrant typing so I will move onto Claytons hunt! On this hunt my Son & I both did calling but my Son was the main instrument that put the bull in mine & Claytons lap! On this last day of the season all 3 of us headed to one of Claytons all time favorite spots & spent the night, (no tellum creek) it was here where we would wrap up the season as it were! By daybreak it found us up on top of an elky bench with little to no sign. Clayton decides to bugle here to see if anythings around, he does so & receives instant response from several bulls, we were dumb-founded as the place looked deserted!!! I gave a couple cow sounds with a mouth reed & squeezed the ole hoocher twice & screamed a bugle as if to let the other bulls know they weren't welcome, yeah right!!! (grin) It worked fine, Paul Jr. could here things breaking & crunching coming our way from in front of us & Clayton & I hit the ground & now Paul Jr. was now the caller as he had no choice because he was behind both of us & this elk was coming fast. Paul Jr was on the downhill side of a small knob & Clayton & I were on top, Paul Jr. went right into a light version of the Threat Level I & within 30 seconds was up to Level II. Clayton & I saw the bull coming in at 60yds out through all the burned lodgepole. Clayton was to my left about 4' away & I was behind a 5" lodgepole both of us crouched down on one knee, I had my Bugle at the ready in my left hand and a mouth reed in my mouth ready to stop this bull if needed for the shot. The bull came to Paul Jr. calling from 60yds to 50 to 40 to 30 to 23yds & stopped right out in front of us, he got nervous & I knew he was ready to bolt any second, I was only hoping Clayton did not move & try to force something as the bull would catch any movement, I'm sure Clayton was thinking the same of me! (grin) With no camo the bull never even gave me a 2nd thought! The bull a 6X6 did get nervous as he peered over the small hill where all the commotion was coming from & saw nothing! He whirled to run & with his back to us now & I bellowed a single nervous grunt & Clayton drew his recurve, the bull whirled around nearly broadside & stopped dead in his tracks to see this elk he must have missed somehow right there in front of him, Clayton released & "smack"!! There were ups & downs but what a hoot we all had that day, it was a great year with 4 bulls taken!

Camo or no camo "just hunt"!!! --- I will add that many of the fabrics that camo are known for can really help deter some of the inclement weather nature can toss our way unexpectedly, that's worth serious consideration on those not so nice days!

ElkNut1

[dotman]

I agee completely, I dropped all my main camo gear (it was subpar and old ) I updated over the past year and a half to all solids and am not looking back. My main reason for doing this is due to how freakin expense clothes are, and I better be using them all year for the price.

[Freebird134]

CAREFUL PAUL!!! ALL THIS BLASPHEMY AND YOUR FORUM WILL NEVER LAST


No camo....Hoochie Mama calls..... ugh

[N5J]

Thanks for the update Paul,

Yeah price of regular camo is getting stupid, not to mention if your looking at a set of performance wear like Sitka or KULU.

N5J

James

[wideangle]

Sitka Camo is way over priced! I use surplus army camo pants both wool (green) and cotton (camo) for archery hunts.
I have bought some nice plaid wool and heavy flannel shirts on eBay too.
Being still (motionless) and having the wind right is crucial camo is not.

[iRem]

Great read, puts it in perspective how much playing the wind (which is the only way to hunt because of the elk sense/nose) is very important to hunting Period. Now the camo, spray uv killer on any thing and it won't matter, but I will continue to wear my camo though!

[elkmtngear]

Very good read, Paul!

Personally, I place being undetected in the following order:

1. Wind
2. Movement
3. Breaking up the "human outline" (a different color pants and shirt will suffice, or some type of frontal or background cover).

Best of Luck,
Jeff

[westaner]

Practicing staying motionless should be up there with target practice!
I use to be a member of the Camo Hater Club, "GRIN" until I saw a hunter using ASAT were I hunt and was impressed, so I bought a jacket to test. Still impressed!
The only thing was the cotton fabric is noisy !

[ElkNut1]

Guys & gals, you must appreciate that elk do not see what humans see! Nothing wrong with camo, but don't think you're invisible! (grin) Only to the human eye can this be expected! My son & I have taken several bulls where we stayed motionless in areas as open as the Wallmart parking lot. Nothing to hide behind but each other or putting our bows in front of our face for a slight breakup. Yes, they can recognize something that wasn't there before but the do not just run off. It's not the same as if you & I were to see a standing still Grizzly at 25yds, we don't need to see it move to know it's there! (grin) Elk do not have that capacity, I've had way too many elk walk right to me or by me by not moving & having the wind in my favor! It's just things to remember! We don't wear camo face breakup either, not saying not too, just letting you know what we had or didn't have!

ElkNut1

[Swede]

The advantages I have experienced with my camo include. 1. It is soft and quiet 2. As mentioned above, it drys rather quickly 3. It fits well and the sleaves are not baggy so I do not have to worry about my bow string catching my sleave. Yes some of my shirts were altered to remove any excess material that could catch the bow string. I know I could just use an arm guard, but why put up with ill fitting clothes? 4. I can easily identify my hunting clothes. They are the ones with the camo. They get washed with scent free soap that has no ultra violet brighteners. Is that important? Probably not, but it is no more expensive that washing in any other laundry detergent. 5. Uh? I can't think of any other good reason to wear camo, unless you need to dress the part to be a hunter.

[buglmin]

I'm a firm believer in good camo patterns, have used ASAT since the early 90's, and was a dealer for them for 10 years...ASAT is like no other camo pattern, cause of the way the pattern bends and absorbs lite...any camo or solids will hide you when you have brush in front or in back of you, but regardless of what many believe, breaking up the human outline is very important when youre caught out in the open...We've had elk walk right by us as we stand there, killed bulls that came in behind us and allowed us to turn slowly without running, standing and bugling, not able to identfy us. I've had every kind of camo in our camps, plaids, solids, but they dont hide you on sage flats, dont break up the human outline, and yessir, deer pick up the human outline very fast at any disatnce. Turkeys see colors better the elk and deer, coys see color better, and nothing has given us the edge like ASAT.
As far as Sitke being over priced, I believe you get what you pay for...personaaly, I like Sitka, like how it fits, and like how it performs...

[Freebird134]

Not sure if everyone has seen this. If not, it's worth a look. It's a test between popular camo patterns (there isn't a "no camo" group, though). I have been questioning the utility of all these different camo patterns for a while, and this series of pics really solidified my thought that "it just doesn't matter."

http://forum.kuiu.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2235

[dotman]

So if camo is such a big part of succesful hunting how did the indians and all of humanity survive? Camo is relativly new in hunting when put into perspective, it grew popular with the military and branched out, mainly from marketing. Also I do not see how ASAT camo will breakup the human outline anymore then a solid other then to the human eye. Camo is not needed and there are plenty of companies making quality gear in solids now. Most backpacking companies make better fitting clothes then hunting companies. First Lite & Kuiu make great gear, in solids as well as camo.

[westaner]

Great!? Thanks freebird, now I got to get new camo! I agree with Paul on not needing camo if you are motionless. Slow movement if the need to stalk in closer. Sometimes you just have to maneuver, if I'm caught moveing and its lookes like its game over I give hand wiggle to imitate a mule deer tail. The reaction is immediate, they sometimes let out a big sigh of relief. The same lung full that would have been a popping grunt!
I would say camo for me is just a confidence builder,but maybe I'd be better of wearing an elk costume!

[Buckriser]

I Ned all the confidence I can get lol. Il be trying out the ASAT 3d leafy camo suit this year. the elk won't know what hit him. Lol

[ElkNut1]

westaner, LOL!!

ElkNut1

[dotman]

Haha, well with all my brown first light and kuiu I guess I could just wear a heads up decoy over my face. I'll look just like a cow

[eltaco]

Haha, well with all my brown first light and kuiu I guess I could just wear a heads up decoy over my face. I'll look just like a cow

Make sure it's not third week in CO! Wouldn't want a smoke pole aiming your direction!

[JoeH2o]

I wear camo so I don't get confused with those muffin lovers out there, and I don't think wolves can see camo!

[dotman]

Haha, well with all my brown first light and kuiu I guess I could just wear a heads up decoy over my face. I'll look just like a cow

Make sure it's not third week in CO! Wouldn't want a smoke pole aiming your direction!

Disclaimer - I only bow hunt and it will be before any guns should be out but haha kind of a joke also

[BowElkDwn]

I wear camo mainly because its comfortable, water resistant, light weight, and not a big blob of something animals will pick out. If there is something half the price or less and all the same qualities in a plaid or something thats not a solid color for half the price I would wear that.

[ElkNut1]

For the record, I do wear camo most of the time, camo is cool! (grin) I wear it because of the same properties values in the materials that bowelkdown does! Never forget your camo underwear too! (grin)

ElkNut1