What is this bull saying?

[flystrait]

This video is from a encounter we had in MT. What is this bull saying in this sequence. This is not the best film footage as it was taken by a point and shoot camera hanging off of the shooters belt, so he had his hands free. Turn up your speakers and you will hear all the sounds. What say you?

[flystrait]

From some reason the video did not show up. Here is another try.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQIwHw-m ... ata_player

[WapitiTalk1]

Sounds like he wants to kick your butt (scream/challenge bugles) and is not afraid of confrontation, but, is not a youngster that's just gonna scream in throwing all caution to the wind. I'm not sure this guy has cows of his own as he moved in pretty steady from what the narrative and sounds offer (wouldn't just leave his cows, but would probably be moving steadily away if he had chicks with him). Sounds like a good bull. He is also is calling your cows to him as evidenced by the chuckles. That's my guess and I'm sticking to it

Very cool footage and sound recording by the way...

[Swede]

I think you could have got him if you had lightened up a little on the piano music. It might have also helped to let the caller do all of the calling. ???

[flystrait]

Sounds like he wants to kick your butt (scream/challenge bugles) and is not afraid of confrontation, but, is not a youngster that's just gonna scream in throwing all caution to the wind. I'm not sure this guy has cows of his own as he moved in pretty steady from what the narrative and sounds offer (wouldn't just leave his cows, but would probably be moving steadily away if he had chicks with him). Sounds like a good bull. He is also is calling your cows to him as evidenced by the chuckles. That's my guess and I'm sticking to it

Very cool footage and sound recording by the way...

I believe you are correct RJ, but what would you call the sounds toward the end? I call it the "wind up". I hear this often as the bulls are getting close, but I have never heard of anybody talk about it before.

[flystrait]

I think you could have got him if you had lightened up a little on the piano music. It might have also helped to let the caller do all of the calling. ???

The Piano was for the music "Buffs" lol. The shooter did not make a sound until after the bull buggered when he let down the last time.

What you think Swede?

[>>>---WW---->]

I'll answer your question with a question. Why did you change up on him. You had him coming in good with bugles and he didn't seem afraid to confront you. You said you had him in to 35 yards. Then when you switched to cow mews, he tried to call the cows to him. Nothing showed so it was basically game over.

With two guys on a bull like this, the caller could have backed off several yards farther and continued to call, kinda like he was a bull backing off. The shooter would remain tight and not make any sounds. Good chance that bull would have walked right past the shooter.

[flystrait]

I'll answer your question with a question. Why did you change up on him. You had him coming in good with bugles and he didn't seem afraid to confront you. You said you had him in to 35 yards. Then when you switched to cow mews, he tried to call the cows to him. Nothing showed so it was basically game over.

With two guys on a bull like this, the caller could have backed off several yards farther and continued to call, kinda like he was a bull backing off. The shooter would remain tight and not make any sounds. Good chance that bull would have walked right past the shooter.

Good point of view WW. The cow calls only came after he was within bow range and walked by the shooter at 35 yards and "buggered" by the shooter letting down, but he did not feel good about the shot " which I respect". The bull did try to call cows Agreed but we never cow called back. We seldom cow call, but what I am really looking for is what is that sound at the end? I call it the "wind up" and I hear that fairly often when bulls get in close?

[>>>---WW---->]

JMHO: The hi-pitched bugle after you mewed was when he tried to call the cows. When nothing showed, he was already leary and moved off. He was already suspecous by then and you said you thought maybe he had caught some movement. Anyhow, that very last call could have lots of verious meanings. But basically, "game over" for that particular setup.

But that doesn't mean that you couldn't have followed him and tried again.

[ElkNut1]

Since you asked what was the last bugles you heard, it was the bull calling this cow to him, he did this at the 30yd mark asking her to come on over because he couldn't see her, he moved off & you cow called, once again he was calling this unseen cow to come to him. (you) Bad setup.As for the rest of the bugling nothing too fancy they are common bugles by 2 different bulls, one bull giving tolerating bugles, this means he was warning junior not to come any closer or else. The juvenile bull is the one chuckling, he was trying to attract the herd bulls cows his way to at least consider him as a breeder bull, I'll bet at one time or another the younger bull was raking a tree/brush displaying for the herd bulls cows.

ElkNut1

[ElkNut1]

Flystraight, the sound at the end in which you asked about are these same sounds here. There are 4-5 bulls using this very sound here. Their age groups different from young bulls to mature bulls, note the differences from one to the next yet all are asking for this cow to come out & come to them. I have video of all these bulls making this sound, all are under 60yds coming to the cow calling! This is the sound you heard at the end of your clip! Hope this works?

ElkNut1

[flystrait]

Paul,
I agree on the sounds you posted what those bulls were saying. The "wind up" as I call it is at the 4 min mark on the video. This bull did this without seeing anyone or smelling anyone and he was just walking in and did not even stop at this point.

[ElkNut1]

OK, I listened to the bull at the 4 minute mark, he is talking to his cows, it's very possible his cows were well behind him but he's got some there. If you cow called at anytime during that encounter he could be trying to call you over as well regardless of whether you were using bull sounds too. The bugle was for them to gather in case he wanted to move them out, he eventually did that very thing. There was something that he didn't feel right about that encounter. The second that bull started warning you shows he's being protective. What time of the morning was it? I'm curious if you caught them in their bedding area or on their way to it? Where the encounter takes place determines ones best odds of calling in & killing him, different spots, different techniques. Thanks.

ElkNut1

[ceetoo]

Thanks for the great responses guys.

swede: Completely agree with you! That's the last time I drag the piano along with me! Maybe just a guitar next time… ; )

First, my apologies to all that endured that little bit of "video." All I was really trying to do was edit down 18min of pure crap to just a few minutes of crap so that some friends and fam could get a feel for those incredible sounds we experience in the elk woods. Was my first time playing with video, one thing led to another, and well, that's what you suffered through…

As the, uh, "producer" of this lowly video, I need to point out a couple things that aren't apparent from how video got structured. While it is chronologically correct, the editing does not represent the sequence of events that well.

- At the point of the sound in question ("wind up," 4 min-ish), the bull was around 35, maybe 40 yrds from me, and after that "wind up" call he turned and walked to 30yds from me. He either heard me draw, or caught my movement, but either way he hung up at an unfortunate spot longer than I could hold my draw. A few seconds after I let down, he buggered.

- After the bull buggered the second shooter moved forward (there were three of us: two shooters, one caller) while I went back up hill to retrieve a lost item from the other shooter. It was 5-10 minutes later when the video picks up again with me cow calling on the far side of the little meadow. Craig is forward in the timber, and the other shooter is ahead from there a spell.

Since the bull buggered at something (me) between him and the caller, it seemed appropriate to me to initiate some cows calls. Perhaps he'd believe that what had startled him was a cow.

Oh - time of day was mid/late-afternoon.

Cheers,
-c2

[ElkNut1]

Ceetoo, now that's how you share information about an encounter. Details & what was going on and what was taking place are all important matters here. Your explanation & timing of events makes total sense now, thanks for filling in the blanks.

Bulls & cows alike communicate with one another with the same sounds, cows can make any sound a bull can & vice versa. Sometimes we get hung up thinking only cows make certain sounds that only applies to bulls & bulls only make certain sounds that only apply to cows, in many cases it's true & in others it is not. I do it as well because the norm for a specific sound is generally directed towards the opposite gender in so many cases. This "sound" is a great example, normally you would hear this "wind up" groan associated with a bull gathering his cows or trying to gather in a new recruit that he's heard in the nearby area. (a cow) The herd bull had warned him several times to stay back but this bull, (the hunter) didn't back off but showed an aggressive nature & was trying his best to call this bulls cows away from him with his bugles & chuckles. In this case the herd bull was wanting to see this other bull that was pressuring him & his harem in their bedding area, he directed this groan to the intruder bull, (as he would a cow) he wanted to see his competitor. Ceetoo mentions the herd bull gave the groan & still hung around showing he didn't feel threatened & run, the bull didn't use a nervous grunt here so wasn't alarmed.If he would have seen this intruder bull the herd bull would have tried to run him off! Instead the herd bull saw/heard something suspicious & backed off eventually leaving the area.

Knowing that this encounter was taking place in a bedding area can change ones tactics to up the odds immensely in the hunters favor. Bedding areas are "destination spots" Elk are not easily pushed out of them by other elk. Mature herd bulls will defend them like you would your own home against intruders. With this in mind it makes these encounters special, the herd bull is very vulnerable & killable, specific tactics should be used here for best results. Some tactics are better than others depending on aggressive bugling by the herd bull or how open is the country for an approach & setup?

Here are a few options to consider that have worked well for us multiple times. Analyze ones situation & choose the one that fits best. >>>>>

Call & Stalk -- One caller/hunter stays back at a safe tolerable distance 250yds + depending on how thick or open the country, thicker country stay back aprox 250yds, open country 400yds+ The caller keeps bull vocal as he's in bedding area as a shooter slips in silently to the vocal bull. This can work out great! Shooter watches for other elk as he slips in unnoticed! Do not put a time limit on ones self here.

A second option, once herd bull is located in bedding area (as above topic) slip in close as possible without being detected, do not call your way to him. If bull is on his feet & courting cows & there's cows talking & the bull is showing urges of cow/cows coming into estrus by his sounds, groans, moans, glunking, panting, etc. then this is a spot to throw out a course challenging bugle! Inside 75yds is best here. If bull screams a bugle back but holds position, then throw out 2-3 whining cow mews, once bull bugles or chuckles for this cow to get over there scream your challenge back immediately, toss in 2-3 glunks & rake a tree vigoursly.

A third option, bull is in or near bedding area, you contact him with distant bugles for location, time of day tells you he's in bedding area. Move in to 150yds or so & cow call for location, if bull responds stay with the cow calls & go to him as he invites you to the group. Cow call your way to him with mid volume excitement as you accept invite, do some stomping & branch breaking as you head towards him, remember you're an elk. Stop all calling 50-60yds away & slip in slowly yet silently as possible, if you happen to make some noise the rest of the way in don't worry, he thinks its the cow coming. Cow calling your way to a bull that asks you to come is extremely deadly & an aggressive move on the hunters part.

These bulls were taken with each one of the above 3 scenarios, note, we chose different tactics per encounter, not one tactic fits all encounters, be willing to adjust & adapt to each encounter!

ElkNut1

[flystrait]

Paul,

Thank you for clarifying what that sound means, the "wind up" as I call it. I have been trying to figure it out for quite some time. I have heard this sound several times a year as a bull get very close when calling them in. I was always woundering what are they saying, does it really mean something or are they just starting to bugle and thought twice about it and just stopped.

The next question would be. Have you ever had a bull make this sound and then just stop coming in if he did not like the responce that he heard, kind of like the popping grunt reaction?

Thanks CK

[ElkNut1]

Craig, those other sounds I shared above are the same sounds as the "wind up" bugle as you refer to it. The subtle differences of it are normal. Notice some of the bulls using this sound are younger & some older, this in itself will vary this "where are you" or "come on over or out" bugle tone. Too, depending on the bulls wants he can be subtle about it or seem urgent/demanding in his tone or length of this type bugle. Bulls are not robots or have the exact sound from one to the other even though communicating the same basic thought. It can be likened to us humans, we can express the same words but the tone can be subtle or require immediate action to who we are talking too. Elk are very similar.

"The next question would be. Have you ever had a bull make this sound and then just stop coming in if he did not like the responce that he heard, kind of like the popping grunt reaction?"

It's very common for a bull to use this response especially if a herd bull & you were cow calling. Distance to a particular bull is also to be considered. A herd bull will use this sound to draw a heard or unseen cow to the group, he generally does not make a physical appearance to hook her up. Such as dogging a herd to bedding & you try to keep up with hem, if you cow call in hopes of stopping him he generally will give you a similar "wind up" bugle to get over there but for the most part continue with the herd on their way. The same can apply if you've cow called a 100yds from a bedded group, he tries to call this unseen cow to the group not come over & get you.

Satellites on the other hand can come short or long distances, once they get closer & to an area they feel this elk should be they heard it's common for them to stop & evaluate the area looking for this or these elk & give this "where are you" bugle/groan. Setup is so important when bulls come your way. With herd bulls you generally have to go to them once this groan is heard!

As noted above all this can apply to bulls receiving this same response as well. This sound can apply to various situations, their intent is Dependant on situation & gender.

Bottom line, when this sound or any variation of it is heard an action on our part could be required, if elk are close when it's used stay patient & quiet if a lone hunter. If two hunters & there's a caller behind the shooter a reasonable distance then yes a soft single mew from the caller can bring this bull closer since he's already on top of you. It's very risky to give any elk sounds at all once elk are already within bowrange, it can give away your position & hunters rarely win. Stopping a bull for the shot when in close does not apply here.

ElkNut1

[flystrait]

Great info Paul

Thanks for sticking with me and awnsering all these questions.

CK

[ElkNut1]

Craig, you are welcome sir, anytime!

ElkNut1

[elkoholic]

Great information!!! Thanks for asking those questions as it will help not only myself but many other hunters that have encountered the same scenarios. And thank you Paul for answering and sharing your wealth of knowledge.