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Gearing up for Long Bombs

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Gearing up for Long Bombs

Postby Indian Summer » 03 08, 2022 •  [Post 1]

There are lots of guns that can get the job done at longer ranges. The weapon of choice can vary depending on your hunting style and of course by the area you hunt. Where I hunt the further you can shoot the better off you are. If half of the bulls you see are beyond 500 yards then simple math tells you that your odds of a shot opportunity will double if you can shoot beyond 500. Also I’ve noticed a pattern. The bulls I see that are just out of range are the ones I want to shoot. They’re always the big ones! So I end up hunting twice as long to shoot a bull smaller than ones I could have killed in half the time. This CANNOT go on!!! Lol

I had to borrow a scope last year after selling mine to upgrade only to find the one I wanted wasn’t available. Up until last week I was stressing out wondering if I’d even see one this year let alone get it in time to mount and site in before heading down to the 1000 yard range. I’ve had it on order for over a year with no end in sight. Last week Tom sent me a picture of a scope that was sitting on display at our local Sportmans Warehouse. It wasn’t the Mark 5 I wanted but it was certainly close enough. I was eating lunch on the other side of Pittsburgh when he sent the picture. I told my waitress to give me a to go box. I lost my appetite. Lol. I’m lucky I didn’t get a speeding ticket driving over there. I parked and literally ran into the store. I kept thinking to myself not many guts back here in the east would have a use for a scope like that much less want to shell out that kind of money. Sure enough there it was. A Leupold VX5-HD 7-35 power by 56mm objective lense. I walked out of there like a 16 year old kid who just bought his first car. The only difference between it and the Mark 5 is the range of adjustment for elevation. The Mark 5 has 100 MOA range and the VX-5 has 50 MOA. It only takes me 23 or 24 minutes of angle to be on the mark at 1000 yards so it was more than adequate. As a matter of fact I was glad to het this one because it’s $400 cheaper and I don’t need to shoot a mile! Back when I ordered the Mark 5 they hadn’t even come out with the VX-5 so I knew nothing about it until Tom sent the picture. It turned out to be a blessing in disguise as it’s perfect for my needs.

A quick phone call to Talley for the one piece machined bases and things were coming together. By the way Talley is a great company just like Leupold. They answer on the 2nd or 3rd ring every time and always have the answers I need. The are pleasant and knowledgeable and everything is made right here in the USA. I like the rear ring with the integrated bubble level. A must at long range and better than an aftermarket attachment.

Last night I mounted and leveled the scope. With a 34mm main tube it looks like a bazooka! And that 56mm bell on the end makes my gun look skinny! Lol It was dark out so I had to wait until morning to point it out the back door and have a peek. Wow! That thing has a brighter clearer image than I could ever have hoped for. Unreal. But you better be ready to hold a gun still if you’re going to crank it up to 35x magnification.
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Re: Gearing up for Long Bombs

Postby Indian Summer » 03 08, 2022 •  [Post 2]

If a bull is looking at this end he is in trouble!
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Re: Gearing up for Long Bombs

Postby Indian Summer » 03 08, 2022 •  [Post 3]

Experimenting. This’ll work in a pinch. But I have a plan…. I always have a plan! I’ll be up there this summer with cordless Dewalt sawzall and impact driver building a solid bench at the money spot. Come hunting season I’ll take two cloth bags with drawstrings to fill with sandy dirt for shooting bags. I guess you could say I’m a bit of an extremist. I just don’t like watching 6 point bulls walk away!!!
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Re: Gearing up for Long Bombs

Postby Indian Summer » 03 08, 2022 •  [Post 4]

This bull is up $h1t creek come October. He laughed at me last year. I did not like that! :lol: :oops:
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Re: Gearing up for Long Bombs

Postby Indian Summer » 03 08, 2022 •  [Post 5]

This one was definitely safe up there! Nobody is safe this coming season! I wish we could post videos here.
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Re: Gearing up for Long Bombs

Postby saddlesore » 03 08, 2022 •  [Post 6]

I imagine,you won't be putting that in a scabbard
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Re: Gearing up for Long Bombs

Postby Swede » 03 08, 2022 •  [Post 7]

Joe, it looks like you have the medicine those old boys need alright. A hot lead injection at 700 yards should cure them of laughing at you.
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Re: Gearing up for Long Bombs

Postby Indian Summer » 03 08, 2022 •  [Post 8]

saddlesore wrote:I imagine,you won't be putting that in a scabbard


Funny you should ask. But us horse guys are always thinking about packing right! A Trail Max Deluxe scabbard fits it easily. The first thing I did once the scope was mounted was slip it in to make sure. My last scope had a 50mm objective so actually not a huge difference.
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Re: Gearing up for Long Bombs

Postby Deanmac » 03 08, 2022 •  [Post 9]

Nice scope!
Might be a dumb question, but what is the duck tape on the stock for?
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Re: Gearing up for Long Bombs

Postby Indian Summer » 03 08, 2022 •  [Post 10]

I guess I could use something prettier. That piece of paper with my minutes of angle is in a ziplok sandwich bag.
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Re: Gearing up for Long Bombs

Postby Tigger » 03 09, 2022 •  [Post 11]

Linear to 450? What load are you shooting? I assume that is a 300 Win Mag? i have a 300WSM and mine isnt that flat. Handloads?
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Re: Gearing up for Long Bombs

Postby Lefty » 03 09, 2022 •  [Post 12]

I use to like the long game, a different satisfaction on those shots
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Re: Gearing up for Long Bombs

Postby Indian Summer » 03 09, 2022 •  [Post 13]

Lefty wrote:I use to like the long game, a different satisfaction on those shots

Think bow hunting. A 600 yard shot is like a 60 yard shot. You better do your homework.

Tigger .300 Remington Ultra Mag. 17% more case capacity than a .300 Weatherby and 27% more than the Win Mag. Yes handloads. 91 grains of Alliant RL25. 200 grain Nosler Accubonds. I used to seat them just off the lands but they didn’t fit in the magazine so I shortened them to just fit. Muzzle velocity 3150 fps. Puh pow!
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Re: Gearing up for Long Bombs

Postby Indian Summer » 03 13, 2022 •  [Post 14]

Swede what happened to your post? Gimme a minute and I’ll answer your questions….
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Re: Gearing up for Long Bombs

Postby Swede » 03 13, 2022 •  [Post 15]

I am sorry about that. I was working the math on what you posted using trajectory and ballistics charts and something was not working out. After a while I decided if you have sighted in your gun at the ranges you show, there is little advantage to determining how the bullet got there. Simply put a person can calculate the muzzle velocity if you can accurately show the trajectory of your bullet. I just could not make it work out. Either my math was off or something on your end is. The difference was not huge, so I pulled the pin on the post. I suspect your muzzle velocity is high, which comes from reading manufacturers claims in their reloading books.
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Re: Gearing up for Long Bombs

Postby Deanmac » 03 13, 2022 •  [Post 16]

Thanks
I now see the note on the stock
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Re: Gearing up for Long Bombs

Postby Indian Summer » 03 29, 2022 •  [Post 17]

Swede here ya go. The numbers on my stock are MOA…. Minutes of Angle. A minute is 1/60 of 1 degree. The measurement for that at 100 yards is 1 inch. My gun is zeroed at 100 yards. My scope adjustment is 1/4 MOA per click. 4 clicks equals 1 MOA. If I adjust the scope up 1 MOA I’ll hit 1 inch high at 100. If you look at the numbers on my stock 500 yards requires 7.5 minutes of angle which is 30 clicks. Pretty damn close to what the computer ballistics program spit out.

The sheet doesn’t show inches of drop at various distances. But here’s something to think about. Imagine if I didn’t have an adjustable scope and had to just holdover or “aim high”. For a 500 yard shot I’d have to aim 6.5 inches high at 100 yards. But when looking at the target how high would I have to holdover? Simple. Go back to that 1/60 of a degree at 100 yards and do the math. Your line of sight doesn’t change. So if I’m looking 6.5 inches above the bullseye at 100 multiply that by 5. My line of sight would have me looking 32.5 inches high at 500 yards. I included a generic chart from Nosler. It shows bullet drop but obviously doesn’t take into account many variables such as elevation, temp, humidity etc.

You’re a bow hunter so you know what happens to trajectory the further away a projectile gets. By the time a bullet gets to 700 yards it’s angling downhill a lot. For that reason the further your target the more critical range estimation becomes. That why long range shooter don’t just holdover. They dial it in. We don’t say things like “just aim at the top of his shoulder”. It’s much more scientific. It’s much more fun seeing how accurate you can be down range and how well the whole system works. I’m just a novice compared to lots of guys. Bench shooters amaze me. There are guys shooting at 1 and 2 miles. Last week I saw a video of a guys shooting at 2000 yards WITH A PISTOL! I wouldn’t say he was prepared to ethically shoot at a live animal but he was hitting a target that looked to be about 3 feet around. Still amazing especially for a handgun. I shake my head at bow hunters who shoot at 80-100 yards. But there are guys who do it. There are people who shake their heads at people who shoot elk at 1000 yards. But to some guys that’s child’s play. I have a friend who shoots at 1000 so much that he says he’d rather shoot an elk at that distance than at 800 yards. Probably an exaggeration but he also kills elk at and a bit beyond 1200. If I get comfortable enough to kill elk at 1000 I can tell you I’ll stop there. To me the variables beyond that are too influential for me to even start thinking about. At that point a different gun would be a must. A pretty heavy one for starters and a rest to be able to utilize it’s potential.
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Re: Gearing up for Long Bombs

Postby Tigger » 03 29, 2022 •  [Post 18]

Joe,
Have those shooters that kill elk at 1,000+ yards ever talked about the ethics in shooting that far given uncontrollable variables like elk movement? I have no doubt they can hit targets at that distance, but targets don't up and decide to take a step or turn sideways in the full second that bullet is in flight.

also, do those guys consistently hit that 1 foot circle on their first shot? Like 9 out of 10 times?

I have never had the opportunity to talk to one of those guys and have always been curious.
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Re: Gearing up for Long Bombs

Postby Swede » 03 29, 2022 •  [Post 19]

Joe, no offence, but I question the muzzle velocity. I know that is what Nosler claims, but have you verified it through a chronograph? If all of your charts are based on Nosler data, but the muzzle velocity is too high, you will be hitting low. On the other hand, if you are hitting on target, at the ranges you show, then ignore what I was trying to figure out.
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Re: Gearing up for Long Bombs

Postby Indian Summer » 03 29, 2022 •  [Post 20]

You guys crack me up. Do you think the numbers on the side of my gun are from Nosler? Lol… Hell no! They are my verified numbers after days at the bench. Nosler numbers don’t exactly agree with mine. At the end of the day the only thing that matters is where an actual bullet from my actual rifle hit an actual target. And not just once!

Muzzle velocity: Swede those numbers are anything but extreme. Same answer… Hell yes my velocity is from a chronygraph! I own one. So does the president of the 1000 yard club where I verify everything. I can zip them faster too! My gun groups best at this speed. In the beginning I loaded 5 different powder charges starting with max load by the book. I always hope max groups best because the faster the bullet the flatter it shoots and so the more margin for slight errors in range estimation. You obviously aren’t familiar with a .300 Remington Ultra Mag. It’s a canon! Nearly 30% more case capacity than a .300 Win Mag. That’s a lot of powder brother! That little chart with bullet drop is from Nosler. The other one is MY chart. Actual numbers based on the velocity from my chrony. I’ve mentioned before, I think, that my friend who regularly shoots long range has a muzzle velocity of 3400 fps! But he shoots a custom gun. Big heavy canon. Speeds over 3000 feet per second with 200 grain bullets are a piece of cake for our guns. Oh and by the way he’s shooting 210 grain bullets from Berger so even more energy out of the barrel and retained down range.

Ok Tigger your turn…. Of course we take those things into consideration. We are NOT bench shooters. We’re hunters. The other guy I’m talking about here is way more advanced than me. He has a little portable weather station. Has a little cupped windmill type thingamabob on top for precise wind speed, measures temp and humidity and more. He’s not just poking and hoping. Put it this way… it’s every bit as ethical as the average guy taking a 350 yard shot. More ethical than half the people who take 200 yard shots with either a crappy rest or none at all. As far as an elk moving. It’s hunting. Of course it happens. But that doesn’t necessarily mean the shot isn’t still good enough to be lethal. One thing about long bombs is you’re never in a hurry. You have all day. As a matter of fact tomorrow is fine too. The elk have no clue you’re there. They can’t see you or smell you. They are relaxed. Feeding. So timing is a factor. I watch bulls eat. Drop their head take a bite. Lift their head and chew. Drop their head take another bite. Lift and chew. Maybe a few steps forward. Drop their head… wham! Elk don’t move for a little bit when they first drop their head to feed. That’s go time. What’s better than that? Easy… a bull that’s bedded. He ain’t goin’ nowhere! He’s as dead as a paper target! To your last question… a 12 inch group every time is being generous. I haven’t pushed the 1000 yard envelope yet. But at 800 my groups are 6 inches. That’s within 3 inches of the center every time. Mind you that’s on a bench which is why I’m still only capable in my mind of killing elk to 600. But the new scope is about to extend that range.

One thing you guys haven’t thought to grill me about yet is something very important to consider. Sometimes these elk aren’t out in the open. They are shot while in small openings on timber covered slopes. By the time you walk all the way down through the bottom and up the other side, or side hill the contour line around the head of a canyon, things look a lot different. Finding the spot you shot at isn’t always easy. The best solution for that is a partner and two walkie talkies. But if don’t have that luxury you have to take your time. Look at where the bull was. Is it higher or lower in elevation than where you shot from? Get out the map and look over every little feature and do your best to put a dot right where he was. Even then it can be tough. It wasn’t an ethical shot if you can’t find him right? Bench shooters know nothing about that but to an elk hunter it’s a big deal.

Ok next question???
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Re: Gearing up for Long Bombs

Postby Swede » 03 29, 2022 •  [Post 21]

All I was interested in knowing was what you were basing your numbers on. Did the figures you get come from a reloading manual or from a chronograph. Were you basing your MOAs on something you read or experienced? It has been my observation that people who exaggerate or worse, get very defensive and even vulgar when questioned. People that are comfortable with what they are saying don't get riled at all. They even enjoy explaining their information. That is my experience.
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Re: Gearing up for Long Bombs

Postby Indian Summer » 03 30, 2022 •  [Post 22]

Swede wrote:All I was interested in knowing was what you were basing your numbers on. Did the figures you get come from a reloading manual or from a chronograph. Were you basing your MOAs on something you read or experienced? It has been my observation that people who exaggerate or worse, get very defensive and even vulgar when questioned. People that are comfortable with what they are saying don't get riled at all. They even enjoy explaining their information. That is my experience.


I definitely enjoyed explaining it. Using the word hell doesn’t mean I’m all riled up. Lol I will say that to think I’d just use a muzzle velocity from a bullet manufacturer is a bit of an insult to my intelligence. No serious shooter/reloader does that. A book is just a reference. Like a recipe book. Or a speed limit sign. Lol It’s definitely not a blueprint for accuracy.
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Re: Gearing up for Long Bombs

Postby Tigger » 03 30, 2022 •  [Post 23]

Hey, I am trying to learn something here! I am not a long distance shooter, but learning something from someone who is may help me on that 400 yard shot.

How do you account for differing winds/thermals in the field where you may have a wind from the right where you are standing but there is a an upward thermal to the left halfway to your subject and who knows what it is near the elk? I would think thermals would be really hard to account for as you cannot practice that at a range.

And I would think measuring wind is critical on those long shots, so how do you do that accurately (albeit only where you are standing)?
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Re: Gearing up for Long Bombs

Postby Indian Summer » 03 30, 2022 •  [Post 24]

Tigger wrote:Hey, I am trying to learn something here! I am not a long distance shooter, but learning something from someone who is may help me on that 400 yard shot.

How do you account for differing winds/thermals in the field where you may have a wind from the right where you are standing but there is a an upward thermal to the left halfway to your subject and who knows what it is near the elk? I would think thermals would be really hard to account for as you cannot practice that at a range.

And I would think measuring wind is critical on those long shots, so how do you do that accurately (albeit only where you are standing)?


That’s a great question…. With no clear cut answer. In my experience thermals will be at least similar on both sides of a draw. It’s down in the gut where it can and will vary. Especially if there’s running water down there. I’ve been in situations on a sunny south slope where the thermals were very strong and consistent going uphill even in the shaded timber. But I was able to get into small steep sided gullys with water in them to gain elevation without my scent going uphill ahead of me. The air was flowing downhill there just like the water.

Obviously if you are sitting on a sunlit slope and shooting to the other side with no sun there will be a difference. The thermals will still be rising over there but at a different speed. In that case I’d still dial in the same MOA but I might aim a hair low. A hair! The biggest advantage of heavy bullets is that they retain energy. That means flatter trajectory at longer distances than a light one that “peters out”. The difference between throwing a golf ball or a ping pong ball so to speak. It also means more “killing power” down range. But the third and equally important advantage is wind resistance. Go back to the golf ball ping pong ball scenario. That ping pong ball can’t handle any wind at all. The golf ball, for the most part, continues on it’s path.

You can apply the same science to windage as you do elevation. Look at my chart. Just for the sake of looking at it I’ve applied a factor of a 10mph wind from the side at a 90 degree angle. We don’t “aim a hair left”. We dial it in. You can see that at 500 yards I’d need to dial 8.4 clicks to be dead center. A click being 1/4 of a minute that’s about 2 1/8 inches at 100 yards. So times that by 5 for 500 yards and you’d actually be pointed about 10 5/8 inches to the side of your intended point of impact. 10 mph is a pretty stiff breeze. Unless you’re on the top of a ridge or it’s just one of those days where a wicked front is moving in it’s doubtful you’ll be dealing with anything that drastic. If you are and you’re not comfortable with the shot you cross your fingers and tell yourself tomorrow is another day. Or if it’s morning you hope for an evening opportunity and see what’s happening then.

One last thing about the wind “over there”. There are always indicators of what’s going on on the other side. Have you ever watched the 6-8 foot strands of spider web that drift upslope mid day? I have. They’re almost always present. The sun lights them up like a silver strand. You can easily spot them with binoculars and you can see them even better with a spotter. Then of course there’s grass, leaves, branches, treetops. If the elk are over their sparring or running around there are dust clouds. All indicators of wind direction and speed where otherwise you’d never be able to tell.

Remember it’s not like other hunting techniques. You don’t say “Holy $h1t bull!” and make the shot before it’s too late. You sit and look. You watch and see things and learn things that you never considered before. You learn patience. You also wait to see what else might emerge from the timber over there. I’ve watched elk for 3 days before determining that a certain bull was the one I was going to attempt to kill. Or…. How I was going to get closer. I’m always hoping for that. I would only take the long bomb option if I had no other choice. I love sneaking up on elk. Especially when I know where they are, which way the came from, and what they’re doing and most likely about to do. Long range shooting is a skill. But to me it’s better called spot and stalk hunting with the ability to make the shot when you can’t get any closer. I hope that answers your questions and then some. Google up some long range shots on Youtube. Some amazing stuff. But again… I’m not a bench shooter striving for 2000 yard shots or holes in paper that are touching. I’m a hunter and I respect the animals I hunt. I also want to make the first shot count. So paying attention to all of the variables and having patience is THE name of the game.
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Re: Gearing up for Long Bombs

Postby Swede » 03 30, 2022 •  [Post 25]

Again, no offence intended. I too have been a long time reloader and have a chronograph.
Using the same materials in the same amount, including cases, powder and bullets, in a rifle with the same barrel length or even longer, I could not get close to the muzzle velocity the manufacturers claim they get. That baffled me, so I went to a well-respected gunsmith in southern Oregon and asked why. I do not remember all he said as he explained the reason, but I do remember he said it was typical for home reloaders to be off by as much as 200 fps.
When I see someone say they are getting what the manufacturer claims, that now causes me to wonder.
This is not personal, but I also wonder how Nosler claims to have come up with a bullet with a BC far higher than what anyone else has.
I understand MOA and how many minutes in a degree and how many degrees are in a circle. I know that a MOA amounts to a little over one inch at 100 yards. That said, my math did not match up with your figures, but like I said it does not matter at all if you are going with actual target experience. Me sitting here with a pencil and piece of scratch paper is proof of nothing.
Groucho Marx said, "Are you going to believe me or your stupid lying eyes." As always, believe what you are seeing on your targets. Best wishes.
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Re: Gearing up for Long Bombs

Postby Indian Summer » 03 30, 2022 •  [Post 26]

Bullet manufacturer’s data is for their factory ammo. Their stuff has to be safe for ALL types of actions and firearms. As reloaders we can ALWAYS shoot faster than what you can buy in a store. They don’t specify barrel length either. Longer barrels always produce higher muzzle velocities. Easy to understand why. Your bullet is accelerating until it exits the barrel. The data you see in reloading manuals doesn’t take that into account either. It’s not just the cartridge… it’s the gun. And of course the brand and type of powder. Another very big factor. A muzzle brake can have an affect too.
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Re: Gearing up for Long Bombs

Postby Swede » 03 30, 2022 •  [Post 27]

Indian Summer wrote:91 grains of Alliant RL25. 200 grain Nosler Accubonds. I used to seat them just off the lands but they didn’t fit in the magazine so I shortened them to just fit. Muzzle velocity 3150 fps. Puh pow!
Indian Summer wrote: .300 Remington Ultra Mag. 1



I was just going with what you posted about your handloads and gun. I have never read anywhere that a muzzle brake changes muzzle velocity. It reduces recoil and barrel rise if done right, and makes those on the range nearby when you shoot dislike you quickly.
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Re: Gearing up for Long Bombs

Postby Indian Summer » 03 30, 2022 •  [Post 28]

The affect isn’t drastic. But there’s still pressure behind the bullet. Put it this way… I’m no gun fanatic or scientist. I just know what my chrony reading was and where my bullets land. I didn’t even have complete faith in the chrony or the ballistics software program until it spit out the numbers and they worked. I know a few factors that increase muzzle velocities. I know the rifling in my barrel is different than most. Maybe that’s a factor. I don’t know. There are lots of things I don’t know. All I need to know is that I’ve done my homework and the numbers on the side of my stock are dead on. I have numbers for further distances but right now I’m not comfortable shooting any further. As for the brake and people disliking me because of it. Not a problem because with the lack of availability of ammo the local gun club range is like a ghost town. And the people at the 1000 yard club sure don’t care. They shoot cannons too. Plus we all wear quality hearing protection of course.
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Indian Summer
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