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How do you call?

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How do you call?

Postby Elkhunttoo » 06 15, 2021 •  [Post 1]

1. Years ago I mainly cow called and hardly ever bugled.

2. Then listening to elknut I decided to bugle more and did that for a few years.

3. The last 2 years I mainly raked trees, panted/heavy breathing, short short bugle sounds, and a few cow calls.

I’m not sure even though my thoughts have changed and my strategy has changed that I call in any more elk or any less elk.

When I mainly cow called I called in several large bulls. Biggest one was my brothers first day ever archery hunting and he ended up shooting over it.

When mainly bugling I called in the easiest bull I’ve ever called in. Let out one bugle, he bugled the second I got done. And then walked right in to me.

Raking and noises I called in a beautiful bull for my wife 2 seasons ago. With any more experience on her part she has a 30 yard shot. Instead she just enjoyed watching him thrash a tree.

Anyway I’m just wondering how others have evolved over the years and if you truly believe you do better now than then?
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Re: How do you call?

Postby saddlesore » 06 15, 2021 •  [Post 2]

Minimum cow calling,no bugling
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Re: How do you call?

Postby Swede » 06 15, 2021 •  [Post 3]

As a tree stand hunter I often rake a tree and let out one short (less than 2 seconds long) bugle near my stand then I head up my tree and wait. It is important to find a spot near the tree, so when the elk come to check, they need to be within shooting range before they can determine no real elk is there. Often that depends on the direction the elk comes from. What I have learned is that elk rarely call back, and it often takes a couple of hours for them to come around. I know they are looking for the elk because of how they go near the location the elk called from and look for the elk. Sometimes they return to where they came from when the realize there in no elk there.
Callers have been told to wait 1/2 hour or 3/4 hour at their calling location. Most hunters can't wait that long. My advise would be to wait much longer than that if you are not getting a response.
This last season the elk I killed came in nearly two hours after I raked and called. It came to the exact location I called from and got behind the same bush I called from, and there it waited. It stayed for what seemed to be a long time, then walked forward a couple more steps then stopped again. It was the extra two steps forward that proved to be its undoing.
That type of calling brings in bulls and cows. I can't say one is more likely than the other. Whatever is around finally gets curious and comes looking.
Note: I have messed this up many times by not being selective enough on where I called from. If the elk can see the area and assure themselves there is no elk around, they will stay back and out of bow range. You just get to sit and watch the elk. Do not be discouraged that no elk comes to your call. If they are not within hearing distance, you are just in for a nice long view of your area and the opportunity to finish reading your book. Just keep doing it until it pays off.
I agree with Elkhuntoo's use of short bugles even when I just go out calling, especially in the pre-rut period. In Oregon I think I am better off mostly using short calls and not calling too often. That is a way to deal with the elk being call shy. They are used to hearing callers blasting away, but just one short call every so often does not spook them the same. This last part is just my general observation. Some of the older gas bags here on the forum, like WW or Saddlesore, can probably help you more on what I am referring to as calling away from a stand.
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Re: How do you call?

Postby Tigger » 06 15, 2021 •  [Post 4]

Ahh! Calling! So fun! There is something about having a bull literally running at you with snot flying that is a high that cannot be replicated! I vary my calling to the situation. but in my favorite haunt, it is a bugle followed by covering some ground, then go to a cow call first. If that doesnt work, bugle again. Sometimes only chuckles. Rinse and repeat until you find what he wants then stick with it until you stick him with it! :lol:
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Re: How do you call?

Postby Swede » 06 15, 2021 •  [Post 5]

I don't want to hijack this thread, but would like for people that post, to quantify how often their method of calling ends with a dead elk on the ground. This information i only helpful if known quantities are referred to. It does not help to refer to seasons as your season may be totally different than another person's.
I would guess I get an elk or could get an elk calling before I get into my stand using the technique shared above somewhere between every 10-15 times I try it. I may try calling once or at the most twice a day with hours in between. If you hunt a similar area and time that I do, you may get discouraged as you are not likely to have an elk come in the first or second time you try it.
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Re: How do you call?

Postby Tigger » 06 15, 2021 •  [Post 6]

the best year ever for my group we timed the rut perfectly. 2 teams of 2 hunters had 29 bulls inside 40 yards. Only a couple were NOT called in. But usually we average a bull per day called in to within 40 yards. Sometimes we don't get a shot, sometimes we don't actually lay eyes on him (a bull that bugles from less than 40 yards when you don't realize he is there is identified by the puddle of urine your buddy is standing in!).

Is that a dead elk on the ground? No, but there are many reasons we have goofed up a bull unrelated to calling (ie not capitalizing on the shot opportunity). We have even invented some reasons!!
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Re: How do you call?

Postby Swede » 06 15, 2021 •  [Post 7]

Tigger, buddy. I don't care how often you get an elk to bugle back at you or you can get within 40 yards of one, or even if you can find the place where they peed on the ground. Lets be honest. How often do you get a fair shot, using your technique and you end up packing out an elk?
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Re: How do you call?

Postby Tigger » 06 15, 2021 •  [Post 8]

Swede: Personally, 8 shot opportunities at bulls in 6 years. Packed 4 of them out, passed two opportunities up for my buddies to shoot. Shoulda, woulda, coulda on the other 2. But, and this is a big BUT....I am the caller most of the time. Probably 75% or more of the time. I am sure many people have better numbers than that! And we started 6 years ago with zero experience. I have two encounters that really irritate me. I goofed them both up. Both were shootable bulls and I blew it with a mistake.

For cows, I have passed up a cow almost every year, but don't count them. Some have come to calls, many were happenstance.

How has the tree fairy faired?
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Re: How do you call?

Postby WapitiTalk1 » 06 15, 2021 •  [Post 9]

It depends on lotsa things. In relatively close quarters (if it is possible there is a bull within earshot?) I oftentimes just use one or two whiny cow calls. Wait, wait, wait.. for the silent bull to sneak in, particularly early in the season. If I get a verbal "hit", then from that point forward I am officially a cow for this situation, at least for the beginning of that bull vs me situation. So many variables. I just try to use the right sound, or, non verbal elk noise (raking, stomping, knocking a rock loose from a trail, splashing in a wallow a bit) as the situation and the bull's mood dictate. I ran into a young hunter in Montana maybe 7-8 years ago. He would drive the high roads above XXXXX Montana, at any hour of the day, in his little compact car (I kid you not) and stop every 1/2 mile or so and throw out a locator bugle. If he received a hit, off he went bugling as he worked through the U brush, stopping every so often to listen. Honestly, he was not a very good hunter as I heard he wounded two bulls that year (one he told me about). But, his aggressive technique got him within bow range a good handful of bulls. His opening (initial plan) was somewhat crafty but once he got in close (so far, so good), he obviously would shoot at any brown patch through the alder.
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Re: How do you call?

Postby Swede » 06 15, 2021 •  [Post 10]

I am running about 95% kill success from my tree stand season to season. The last few years my stay in a stand has been longer. I generally plan for the entire 30 day season, but my average stay has grown to about 20 days.
But that is not what I was driving at. I am curious how well your calling technique works for you. If you run through the woods whistling Dixie and you kill an elk once a week, them I might try whistling Dixie too. If you are just getting exercise and enjoying the old song, I want to try something else. It is nice to know what is your technique for calling. It would also be good to know where in general you hunt. Are you are hunting quality draw units in different states, etc., but the big question is how well does it work?
It looks like Tigger has called in and killed 4 elk in 6 years. I do not know how long he hunts each year, but that is actually a very good success rate especially for a relatively new hunter.
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Re: How do you call?

Postby Elkhunttoo » 06 15, 2021 •  [Post 11]

When the overall success rate in most otc units are around 10-15% and you hear people “whistling Dixie” all the time. It’s fairly easy to assume that “most” archery hunters never/very rarely kill an elk ;) … because we all know it’s pretty much the same people that put their tags on every year or every other year.

But I’m going to change the thread again for you Swede.

Much like calling, your sitting has evolved. I’m guessing you would claim to be better at picking a tree (calling) then you were 5-10 years into tree stand hunting. Yet, you still were able to kill elk in your early years of sitting. Has your evolution and tactics really made that big of a difference from your earlier years of doing what you do? Or do you just like what you are doing better and so you feel better about it?
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Re: How do you call?

Postby Swede » 06 15, 2021 •  [Post 12]

I would say I am marginally more knowledgeable, but I am also older too. I have been tree stand hunting 28 years now. The first five years I learned a lot. It seems that I have continued to learn over time, but the rate of learning has definitely decreased. I wrote the tree stand book in 2011. The only significant thing I would add to it now would be what I wrote above about calling near my stand, and how long it takes elk to come to the call.
That elk take two or more hours to come in took several years of observation to confirm. The first time it seemed to be a coincidence, but as I had more and more observations, I saw how they were studying the location I called from. I observed them walking around looking at the call location, then they walked back where they came from. After several of those observations, I concluded it was no coincidence.
The first time I tried calling like that near my stand was at the suggestion of Elknut. That same year, on opening day of the season, my son and I were hunting near each other. Before walking up to my tree, I stopped and raked then bugled near a water hole. I shot the first branched bull that came in about two hours after my short call. My son took the second about 1/2 hour later.
In that area there were two water holes about 50 yards apart. They only came near where I called from. They were not coming in to wallow or get a drink that I could tell. They were just looking. That was in 2010 if I remember right.
I mentioned calling near the my stand in the book, but today I would elaborate more on that.
This might be of interest too. Three branched bulls were killed in those same two stand locations that opening day. One had been killed and butchered in the morning.
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Re: How do you call?

Postby Tigger » 06 16, 2021 •  [Post 13]

All general tags Swede. 2 different states. 3 different areas. 1 week of hunting. and you certainly cannot blame the calling on the 2 that i goofed up. And the 2 I passed up were destined for the freezer! You don't separate cows from bulls. My success would be 100% if I shot cows. I have been more lucky than anything. again, I am a novice compared to some out there that call. The good guys are calling in multiple bulls ever week. maybe even 1 per day on average. And big bulls! Plus, the strategy and fun that you have interacting with them is priceless. You get the same heart-pounding excitement from a close encounter that doesnt work out as one that does, minus the pack work! I would love to see you try it. If you are hunting 3+ weeks, why not try it for half a day a few times? first time you have one bugling at 6 yards behind a bush you will be hooked!

A good way to characterize the difference between tree stand hunting vs calling is passive vs active. Stand hunting is effective, no doubting that, but not as active and interactive. Cat and mouse is fun! Making decisions is fun!
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Re: How do you call?

Postby saddlesore » 06 16, 2021 •  [Post 14]

Tigger wrote:All general tags Swede. 2 different states. 3 different areas. 1 week of hunting. and you certainly cannot blame the calling on the 2 that i goofed up. And the 2 I passed up were destined for the freezer! You don't separate cows from bulls. My success would be 100% if I shot cows. I have been more lucky than anything. again, I am a novice compared to some out there that call. The good guys are calling in multiple bulls ever week. maybe even 1 per day on average. And big bulls! Plus, the strategy and fun that you have interacting with them is priceless. You get the same heart-pounding excitement from a close encounter that doesnt work out as one that does, minus the pack work! I would love to see you try it. If you are hunting 3+ weeks, why not try it for half a day a few times? first time you have one bugling at 6 yards behind a bush you will be hooked!


Yep and everyone of those bulls you call in just for fun then bust, tuck that little piece of information away in their brain for the next time they hear a call to decide if it is a human or another elk.Which is why more and more elk are becoming call shy
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Re: How do you call?

Postby Tigger » 06 16, 2021 •  [Post 15]

Not necessarily so. We called in the same bull 3 times in 2 days once. Some times they don't know it is a person. But yes, sometimes you educate elk. Same with anybody who is in the woods hunting. Smell a guy in a tree and it is educated. Smell a guy sitting on a stump overlooking a meadow and it is educated.
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Re: How do you call?

Postby Swede » 06 16, 2021 •  [Post 16]

Tigger wrote:All general tags Swede. 2 different states. 3 different areas.
That is even more remarkable as you could not know any otc area very well in the time you were there.

One of the reasons I don't call much anymore is because the last time I went out for a half day of calling I brought in five hunters and zero elk. I do not know where you are hunting, but I have never had daily close encounters with snot blowing hot bulls. Some days are totally quiet and on others you can not close in on them for a shot. Every time you hear a response to your call is not a close encounter.
Sometime back you and Saddlesore were debating whether to take the first legal elk you could shoot. You said you were glad you waited until the last day to kill the bull you have in your avatar. He said that in Colorado, if you pass on that first elk, you are likely to go home to tag soup. Saddlesore's experience is far more typical that what you are claiming. My advise would be for you to continue hunting where and how you are going about it. I have no long term calling experience to even closely match what you are finding.
As far as elk being educated by smelling a tree stand hunter, I am more than skeptical. If you are being busted as you claim, while in your stand, you have a poor stand location. You need to move. Elk smell preditors all the time. They run off in the moment, but they do not associate it with something pursuing them. The tree stand hunter has not often fooled the elk into coming in to a call, then surprised them suddenly by revealing they are a preditor. That is why calling, if not done right, "educates" the elk. Even when I call and they come in in an hour or two' if they do not see an elk and turn back, they never have a human encounter when they expected to find an elk. For all they know, the elk has walked off and bedded somewhere else. They leave because there is nothing there. They do not run off. They just walk away.
Here is a story for you to consider. There is a ranch adjacent to the area where I used to hunt. The ranch land was posted. Sometimes I would go and call to the bulls I could see out in the fields.
There was a good hill about 20 feet high and a couple of hundred feet long. The hill was outside the fence on public land. I would get behind it and bugle. The bulls would bugle back as long as I wanted to "talk" with them, but they would never cross the fence. They were either educated to calls both good and bad, and would not leave their safe area. Either that or they read and understood the "No Trespassing" signs.
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Re: How do you call?

Postby Tigger » 06 16, 2021 •  [Post 17]

Elk, without a doubt, know where they are safe on private lands. Not exactly reading the sign, but darn close to it.

You misinterpreted my comments on what elk to shoot. My advice is simply this: Shoot or don't shoot an elk whenever YOU decide, not somebody else's idea. If that is a calf 5 minutes into your hunt....go for it, that is the correct decision! If you want to wait and try for a bull....go for it, that is also the correct decision! Get what YOU want out of the hunt. But don't put stock in a saying as that saying may not make you happy in the long run.

I don't tree stand hunt for elk. I get plenty of that whitetail hunting. There is absolutely no place on the 1,000 plus acres I can hunt you wont get busted by deer smelling you. You can be as careful as you want, but sooner or later, a deer will come from a direction you totally don't expect and booger when they smell a person. They learn to avoid tree stands areas plenty fast. give it a rest and they will be back in a few days....probably because they don't booger too far and have to use all of their habitat. They have learned to look up. Maybe elk are not as smart as whitetails, but I bet they are. Interesting topic....whitetail tree stand hunting vs elk tree stand hunting.
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Re: How do you call?

Postby Swede » 06 16, 2021 •  [Post 18]

I appreciate your thoughts here. Deer and elk have some basic differences. I have no doubt that elk are as intelligent as deer. The difference is habitat, territory and and something we studied in school that was referred to as conditioning. Here we refer to it as "educating the elk". I have no experience hunting Whitetail deer. What I know is limited to what I have read.
Elk living in the west are mostly in and around coniferous forests. You can climb up 25 feet or more in a tree in many places. You can hunt mountainous areas where you can choose a tree upslope from your target area. You are rarely stuck 10-12 feet above flat ground. The time of year we hunt is often different too and you are not as limited in where you can hunt. If you have a tag, there is much area open to you.
Elk have a huge area and an individual or herd may not come back to the same place for up to two weeks. They are away. Whitetail deer are born and die in a small area. They are always there unless you pressure them. I find it fascinating that with over 1,000 acres you cannot find a stand location you can come into without being busted by the deer. Do the winds shift all the time and do the deer move around or are they stationed everywhere like a sentry? When hunting elk you can approach your stand and leave a minimal scent trail. There is usually no elk nearby. You do not need to rest your stand so the elk do not get conditioned (educated) to you coming and going. They are a long way off most of the time. They just come by for a few minutes. They do not see you, hear you or smell you approach your stand 98% of the time. If you are often getting busted going to your elk stand, you need to do something different. Getting busted going to a stand happens, but it is not common.
Because the elk are not inhabiting a very small area, they do not get conditioned to your movement. Even if they smell where you approached your stand minutes earlier, they don't run off. They cross the path of preditors all the time. They know the difference between the scent of a human and the scent of one that went through the area earlier. I have had deer, elk and bear milling around under my stand where I had been a little while earlier. I have had a bear smelling at my tree ladder. My scent was still there, but I wasn't. I have had critters eat the brush I urinated on less than an hour before. I have not noticed where that bothers them. The only get excited when they directly scent you.
Here is another case I will share. In the early 1990s, I found a water hole and wallow located in a small basin. Close by was an old wood tree stand nailed up between two trees. The stand was about 10-12 feet high off the ground. I had already killed my elk, but was really interested in this new water hole, so I sat there 5 or 6 days that season. Every time I left that area for a day or three the elk were there. When I sat there, nothing ever came around. This situation went on for about two weeks. During the following winter I was meditating on that experience when it occurred to me what the problem was. The next season, I abandoned that old stand and set up a new one in a larger tree up the hill about 25 yards away. I went up about 30 feet. My success and experience immediately changed. In the low stand, my scent was staying in the basin and oozed down the drainage. Higher up the slope and up the tree, my scent was not descending to the ground. From the new stand I soon killed a bull.
My advise is to learn from your Whitetail experience, but also learn elk. They are not the same. You will do well to know the difference.
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Re: How do you call?

Postby Tigger » 06 16, 2021 •  [Post 19]

"I find it fascinating that with over 1,000 acres you cannot find a stand location you can come into without being busted by the deer." - No, no, no Swedey boy! That is not what I said. I said that sooner or later, every stand location on the farm will have a deer bust you because one will come from a direction you didnt expect. Plenty of places I can get in without being busted. But once there, some deer will come from where you never would expect one to come from. Here, it is all about playing the odds. But it isnt perfect.

Believe me, I know the difference. I always tell people that elk are not big whitetails. But having a whitetail background, if you keep your mind open to the differences, can be a benefit. One example is noise. A whitetail will not tolerate any noise without it paying attention. An elk not only will tolerate it, in many cases it is expecting it. You crack a stick in whitetail country and you will know why they are called whitetails. In elk country, there is a good chance you can get away with it. I would say a whitetail, on average, is more attune to its surroundings than elk. Just in general. I wonder what wawhitey would say as he hunts them both in similar areas. My experience are two completely different areas.

Getting high in the tree helps here as well. I sit about 18 feet up. Helps a lot, but can still get busted.
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Re: How do you call?

Postby Elkhunttoo » 06 16, 2021 •  [Post 20]

Totally agree with all that you all have said. That’s completely how I feel my calling has evolved over the years too!!! :D
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Re: How do you call?

Postby Swede » 06 16, 2021 •  [Post 21]

I understood your point. I just find it odd that you cannot find a place on 1,000 acres, with multiple stands where on where you can not reliably watch the wind, and be at least 95% sure you are not going to be scented. If you are arguing about the 5% I would just say I am not interested in worrying about the once in three year occurrence. Sure it happens, but it is hunting. If you need better odds, go to the butcher shop.
As far as breaking a twig is concerned, I agree. I don't find breaking a stick sends elk running very often. If they look up and see you that is different. If you are breaking sticks with a cadence and approaching them, that too is different. I usually walk with a diaphragm in my mouth. If I break a stick or two, I stop. Occasionally I will let out a soft cow call. I have had bulls chuckle at me to come to see them. Hey, I am just another elk in the woods.
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