When the elk go silent during the rut.....

[WapitiTalk1]

It happens. Sometimes its from excessive hunting/calling pressure in a given area, sometimes its from a hunting pack of howling wolves moving into our basin, sometimes its from those handful of days with a huge full moon where the elk become even more nocturnal with their feeding patterns-moving to bed right after the butt crack of daylight and only heading back to feed right as darkness falls, and sometimes its just that odd break in their otherwise vocal mannerisms during the rut when they just seem to shut up (oftentimes between the second and third week of Elktember). What does a hunter do during these lapses in the normally free spirited elk vocalizations? Many of us have been down this path. Up until (and oftentimes after) this shut up period, it seems pretty easy to ID where they bulls are singing unsolicited, answering our calls, etc. What in the HE double toothpicks should a hunter do when we're in a period where they seem to have lost their voice? RJ

[Swede]

Silent elk are common in over hunted areas. You can tree stand them or hunt carefully on the ground. If I hunt on the ground I call and wait extended periods before calling again. I prefer short two note calls with no chuckles on the end. Cow calls can work too. Patience and perseverance are the keys whether you are in a stand or on the ground.

[Roosiebull]

I plan on quiet elk, and am happy when they aren't. I would say my whole elk program is not focused on vocal animals. I find sign, figure out what they are doing, set up an ambush that makes sense or sneak in and try to kill one quietly.

I call some, but only when it makes sense, I have killed most of my elk silently, and don't care if they are talking or not. I do spend lots of time in the woods early, before light hoping for them to give themselves away easy...but I generally use sign as clues, and rely on that...when they aren't talking, they are still leaving sign...it has been reliable for me.

[Tigger]

First of all, I am in the State of Hockey, so it is HE double hockeysticks!

I think modifying your calling and waiting longer is crucial if you are calling to these elk. Being early or late at night may result in a few bugles that you can hear. Otherwise, I don't know if there is much you can do to all of a sudden make a silent bull decide to speak up.

[saddlesore]

I plan on quiet elk, and am happy when they aren't. I would say my whole elk program is not focused on vocal animals. I find sign, figure out what they are doing, set up an ambush that makes sense or sneak in and try to kill one quietly.

I call some, but only when it makes sense, I have killed most of my elk silently, and don't care if they are talking or not. I do spend lots of time in the woods early, before light hoping for them to give themselves away easy...but I generally use sign as clues, and rely on that...when they aren't talking, they are still leaving sign...it has been reliable for me.

Same here, I have only ever killed on bull by calling in 40+ years. Did kill several cows though.

Colorado probably has more hunting pressure than any other state. I know Elknut says it doesn't matter and there is no such thing as an elk being call shy,but they sure shut down for some reason

[Old school]

I plan on quiet elk, and am happy when they aren't. I would say my whole elk program is not focused on vocal animals. I find sign, figure out what they are doing, set up an ambush that makes sense or sneak in and try to kill one quietly.

I call some, but only when it makes sense, I have killed most of my elk silently, and don't care if they are talking or not. I do spend lots of time in the woods early, before light hoping for them to give themselves away easy...but I generally use sign as clues, and rely on that...when they aren't talking, they are still leaving sign...it has been reliable for me.

Same here, I have only ever killed on bull by calling in 40+ years. Did kill several cows though.

Colorado probably has more hunting pressure than any other state. I know Elknut says it doesn't matter and there is no such thing as an elk being call shy,but they sure shut down for some reason

Vince - I found the exact same thing last year. The first spot we went to and hunted all week long had hunters literally everywhere. We bugled during the day and drove around bugling in good looking spots at night and never got a single response. Then we finally broke camp and moved about 40 miles south and were into bugling bulls literally that very night - and the hunting pressure was way, way less in the new spot.

Glad I went to that second spot or I would've gone home thinking I was doing something wrong and would never get elk to bugle. Truth of the matter was this - I went to a new area (that had much less pressure) and employed the exact same tactics as I had the first week, but this time I had bulls answering me and had a memorable and great hunt.

--Mitch

[ishy]

I have picked up the tree stand hunting for another tool in my belt. I hunt some pretty thick wolf infested stuff, so have had some very quiet years and felt I need more options.

[Swede]

I think all of you that have learned to hunt and kill elk without a call are better off than those that rely entirely on one. A bugle or cow call is a tool. If that tool is not doing the job, you don't want to just keep blowing or squeezing on one. You need more tools in your kit or to do as Mitch did.

[BrentLaBere]

I wish the areas I have hunted would allow a treestand. Most of the hunting is short few hours during the day. The more I have hunted elk the the less I have used calling to get close. But, thats because I know the areas and know the elk are going to be doing at certain times. Ive actually become a very big fan of still hunting transition areas. Using the calls to locate and get in close on a fired up bull is the only way I have killed elk so far. I have missed opportunities within 40 yards of not using calls and they were by far the biggest bulls I have seen. When the elk arent vocal and I am hunting new areas, I feel handcuffed.
Cold calling setups can work in heavily hunted areas that I have been to. The calling needs to be very subtle. Call like you DONT want to be heard and add realism to the calling sequence. Tap rocks on down logs, lightly roll rocks over rocks with soft mewing. Take many breaks in between calling. Also, make it a situational sequence and paint a picture like most good callers describe. I didnt understand that completely my first couple years. Are you calling in timber? Elk typically arent mewing at each other in one spot when they are in timber. They are on the move.... Calling in meadows or on the edges of parks? Sure, you can stay in one place but move from your calling location and wait!
Just a few things I have picked up on over the last couple seasons.

[Tigger]

Most of the stuff we have hunted is pure black timber. No meadows at all. No way would you find elk by still hunting unless you were very lucky or could figure out exactly where in a huge expanse of nearly homogeneous timber they would be. I would love to figure out how to do that. If you walk fast enough to cover some country to find something, you end up bumping them. We have not found a lot of rhyme or reason as to where the elk are. Other than a saddle, that area seems to hold elk and we capitalize on that.

[saddlesore]

Most of the stuff we have hunted is pure black timber. No meadows at all. No way would you find elk by still hunting unless you were very lucky or could figure out exactly where in a huge expanse of nearly homogeneous timber they would be. I would love to figure out how to do that. If you walk fast enough to cover some country to find something, you end up bumping them. We have not found a lot of rhyme or reason as to where the elk are. Other than a saddle, that area seems to hold elk and we capitalize on that.

I could post quite a few pictures of elk I killed in dense timber still hunting.Several in their beds.Hunt an area 2-3 years and you pretty much know where the elk are. I don't know why they always frequent the same area, but they do.It is hard to get guys to slow down ,watch the wind, and stop looking for whole elk.

Here is one I had to cut trees and logs just to get at it.Shot at about ten yards with a 45-70, threading the bullet thru downed logs.


Here is a little nicer 5 x killed in dense timbe.

[Dr. Rx]

This happen to us last year.. they just went quiet.. and I know why... Too many hunters in the field...I really believe human scent is the killer..

At one point there were 7 plus groups hunting the same hill side... the one guy that came down with a bull was a guy who was at least another 2 miles deeper than anyone else..

If they go quiet.. I'm going to go deeper boys..

Kris

[Swede]

I really believe human scent is the killer..

That is a good theory. I think you are on to something. It is easy to blame calling, which I have never done , but scent could be an even bigger factor.

[WapitiTalk1]

I would offer that even when the elk woods fall silent for any given reason (pressure, weather, big dogs howling in your targeted drainage, the big galoots just taking a knee for a few days) don't be too quick to put your calls in your pack. Elk are the "most" vocal, "and", responsive to vocalization during the period when the bulls testosterone levels have risen and the cows are coming into their estrus cycle(s), AKA the rut. Even under adverse conditions, they rely on their vocalizations to get the job at hand done. A hunter needs to dig deep and analyze what is going on and adapt. Sure, running the ridges hollering like a southern yodeler during these challenging quiet times may not be the best bet, but, the elk can't help themselves when well timed/placed locators, challenge bugles, The Threat, or wimpy submissive cow sounds are offered (particularly when you get close to them). So whaddya do? As others have offered, work their travel, feeding, bedding patterns and oftentimes minimal elk noises are necessary to potentially get a shot. Sit up high and listen after darkness falls.... oftentimes you'll hear unsolicited elk chatter below you; make a plan and go to them in the morning. So nothing is squeaking (we all hate that phenomenon)? Throw out a well placed locator and once you receive a response, head in there before daylight (they'll be close to that spot come daylight). Work on your calling so you can make a good basic handful of sounds w/o thinking about it, get in close, and the wapiti will respond physically and verbally .

[Roosiebull]

Most of the stuff we have hunted is pure black timber. No meadows at all. No way would you find elk by still hunting unless you were very lucky or could figure out exactly where in a huge expanse of nearly homogeneous timber they would be. I would love to figure out how to do that. If you walk fast enough to cover some country to find something, you end up bumping them. We have not found a lot of rhyme or reason as to where the elk are. Other than a saddle, that area seems to hold elk and we capitalize on that.

I would guess I hunt the equivalent to what you call dark timber, they do seem random at times, but elk are never random...they do everything for a reason, very deliberate creatures...they need food, water, and cover. Still hunting without purpose may seem futile, but a couple clues are always left on their routine...they can be hunted effectively in the dark timber without calling...I have a friend who is a very good elk hunter, he admits that he cannot get anything going if they aren't talking...no biggie for him, eventually they will cooperate...I am generally more effective not calling...probably because I always hunt solo.

[Roosiebull]

I really believe human scent is the killer..

That is a good theory. I think you are on to something. It is easy to blame calling, which I have never done , but scent could be an even bigger factor.

I think of all of the ways to spook elk, them getting your wind is the worst...they get harder to hunt after they smell you.

Maybe I'm wrong, but that is what it seems l8ke to me.

[Swede]

For sure, I don't fully understand what makes elk tick. I think calling and smelling humans repeatedly could be a major factor in causing bulls to go silent. So why do they bugle up a storm on the private ranch when they have humans around them every bit as frequently as on the public land? Why can I stand on a major road and get them to answer from the ranch for longer than I care to call? They sure know not to cross the fence even if I am hidden. Do you suppose they get educated to us and learn how to react or not react?
Just as you would not use a framing hammer on your furniture, there are places and times to put your bugle away. You will figure it out if you get into an area, and see where the elk run at the sound of a very good call.

[BrentLaBere]

I certainly agree with RJ, they are still talking but its not in the volumes we would like to hear. Other factors play a roll when not hearing elk bugle. The wind is a sound dampener depending where you are from them and so is heavy timber. I've glassed up elk, 200 to 300 yards away, and watched them bugle. I couldn't hear anything! This was a time that I used an open reed and blew on that thing as hard as I possibly could. The bull finally heard something and came our way. 10 yards behind a tree......that little bugger got lucky with two calves that came running in with him that got down wind before he did. Other times we had been hunting the same small, dark timber basin as another hunter. We were heading up the mountain about the same speed and they were bugling every 100 yards or so. It got close to dark and was a very calm quiet night. We did a cold calling sequence like I mentioned before. Elk talking like we didn't want to be heard. I would compare it to hunters whispering to each other, sometimes you cant help but talk. It helped that we knew elk were in the area and we didn't push into where they could have been bedding. Had a bull slip in silently, only to bust me because I was moving too dang much. I would also agree with others on too much calling or too much hunting pressure and scent. But they elk are still there and they are still going to talk to each other, IMO. How you go about it is the determining factor and if you are acting like the elk will when they are being hunted or you are acting like all the hunters hunting them.
With all of this being said, its still hard to figure out what to do when the elk aren't talking loud enough for us to hear (in order to find them). Eventually someone else will bump them in the areas that I have hunted. There is just that much hunting pressure. Like Kris has mentioned, you can do "deeper" to find bulls that haven't been bumped yet. Basically moving on to new country and finding an elk that will talk. Its the option I prefer early on in the hunt when im not completely drained. When the rain or snow starts and im tired I prefer to hunt closer to the road with comforts. I also have to change my hunting tactics.
Swede: "Do you suppose they get educated to us and learn how to react or not react?" - I think so

[Indian Summer]

Lots of hunters think it's from pressure and over calling. But It happens everywhere including where there are no hunters.

I can recall a hunt one time where we heard about 150 bugles in a day and called 11 bulls into shooting range or close. Two days later the same thing with 8 bulls coming in on a string. But the day in between those two would have made you think they were extinct.

Just one more reason why I refer to hunt semi open country. It's bound to happen and when it does I feel sorry for the timber hunters. One thing for sure is that elk eat about 20 pounds of feed every day. That you can count on. So if you can see them you can move in and try different tactics. Stalking in for a shot. Getting setup in front of them for an ambush. Or if you must call get in super close before hitting them to provoke a rutting bull into action.

That's my take on lockjaw. That's my take on elk hunting period.

[saddlesore]

Lots of hunters think it's from pressure and over calling. But It happens everywhere including where there are no hunters.

I can recall a hunt one time where we heard about 150 bugles in a day and called 11 bulls into shooting range or close. Two days later the same thing with 8 bulls coming in on a string. But the day in between those two would have made you think they were extinct.

Just one more reason why I refer to hunt semi open country. It's bound to happen and when it does I feel sorry for the timber hunters. One thing for sure is that elk eat about 20 pounds of feed every day. That you can count on. So if you can see them you can move in and try different tactics. Stalking in for a shot. Getting setup in front of them for an ambush. Or if you must call get in super close before hitting them to provoke a rutting bull into action.

That's my take on lockjaw. That's my take on elk hunting period.

I agree that they can be bugling one day and quiet for the next day.There are a lot or reasons for that.But what happens when they go nocturnal and the only place they are is in the timber during the day and keep quiet? Although we think of heavy timber of miles and miles of nothing but trees,there is enough grass and forage for elk survival in those little pockets around springs and such. They are going to eat that,rather than go out in the openings. A person can sit on those openings or watch them until the cows come home and never see an elk during daylight hours. In those situations, a person needs to be flexible and get to where the elk are, not where they are in the dark.
One location I hunt,you can see the elk moving thru little and big openings,but only as vague shapes.Morning and after dusk They will also hug that tree line and only cross an opening when there is no other choice. If they were not moving,you would think they were bushes or? When that happens,a person needs to get back far enough in the timber to be able to see them when there is enough light to shoot.Whether it is archery, ML or rifle hunting

[cohunter]

I've posted this before and I got called crazy... Putting it out again because I am crazy. Have any of you experienced elk bugling very softly - possibly as a result of pressure? I had two elk screaming challenges at one another. I thought they were each hundreds of yards on either side of me - thought it was strange not to be hearing plain old contact bugles. Then I heard raking and it sounded CLOSE. Moved positions slightly and one of the bull giving 'challenges' was right at about 60 yards. I heard him call and saw him call at the same time - sounded far, but was either a ventriloquist, lip synching, or quiet. Turns out, the other was very near as well. The larger bull (I assume) rushed in and chased off the intruder. I could hear them both at somewhere around 40 yards, but the brush was very thick and I could only catch short glimpses. SO... do elk 'tone it down' and whisper at one another in response to pressure or do they just go silent?

[Swede]

Cohuter, You witnessed what you saw and heard. I don't think that is crazy at all. I think there are possibly several reasons for bulls bugling quieter. I have heard that wolves can cause that. I know of no wolves in your area, but it is not a stretch in my mind to think, with enough humans in the area, you could experience the same elk behavior.

[Indian Summer]

Call ME crazy but nothing surprises me when it comes to elk behavior. Here's a good one for you....

About 1988 me my brother and a friend are bowhunting northwestern Montana. After calling a bull in the wind swirled and we got blatantly busted. The bull looked right at us turned and bolted into the next country with a nose full of human sweat. So feeling a bit defeated we sat down and pulled out the map trying to decide what to do next. After about 5 or 10 minutes of talking out loud and pointing out ideas on the topo I looked up and holy smokes!!!!! The bull was standing there with his neck and head poking out of the brush at 30 yards watching and listening to us devise our sure to fail master plan. What the H E double toothpicks!!!!!! Yeah he ran off for good after that.

The idea that bulls would "whisper" doesn't surprise me at all!

[saddlesore]

I was hunting north of Vail CO quite a few years ago.I had stopped to eat a snack and about 80 elk came crashing past me at a dead run on both sides of me. I got a few shots off with 45-70 at a couple of bulls bringing up the rear as they made it thru the trees ,but they were safe for sure.

They really scuffed up the ground.I followed about a 100 yards and came upon four guys gutting out an elk that they had shot earlier.I asked them if they saw that herd.The said 'What herd?", and they didn't hear me shoot.So I sit down to watch with my 45-70, 1886 across my lap and in about5 minutes,three cows peek up over the little hill there. All these guys had their guns leaning against trees and there was a mad scramble .Of course no one got off a shot.Then they asked me why didn't i shoot. I had a bull tag

[twinkieman]

I'll agree with human scent, and add this quote from Paul Brunner, in an article he wrote about Elknut, "Elk aren't call shy, they are wrong call shy. A bull throws out a location bugle, and a hunter responds with a bugle of his own, with a series of hard thumping grunts on the end. Exactly the wrong response for this bull, wrong call, bull goes silent, and now he is call shy, for this hunter." I agree with this example and many more that were in the article, what we say to the elk, has to make sense to the elk.

[saddlesore]

I'll agree with human scent, and add this quote from Paul Brunner, in an article he wrote about Elknut, "Elk aren't call shy, they are wrong call shy. A bull throws out a location bugle, and a hunter responds with a bugle of his own, with a series of hard thumping grunts on the end. Exactly the wrong response for this bull, wrong call, bull goes silent, and now he is call shy, for this hunter." I agree with this example and many more that were in the article, what we say to the elk, has to make sense to the elk.

Agree to a certain extent,but what about when the bull doesn't call at all. Pretty hard to call the wrong call when they are not bugling. Paul also says only call as aggressive as the elk are. ie.If the elk are not talking, it isn't wise to call . It might not be you that is or did the wrong call.If you have other hunters in the area, which you most certainly will in CO, and those hunters are not call wise,it effects you too. It is only a question of semantics. Call shy or wrong call shy, if the elk are, you are screwed. So you need to have other tricks in your bag to be successful. If one goes into the woods only relying on a call, they are cutting their success rate down.

[Roosiebull]

I've posted this before and I got called crazy... Putting it out again because I am crazy. Have any of you experienced elk bugling very softly - possibly as a result of pressure? I had two elk screaming challenges at one another. I thought they were each hundreds of yards on either side of me - thought it was strange not to be hearing plain old contact bugles. Then I heard raking and it sounded CLOSE. Moved positions slightly and one of the bull giving 'challenges' was right at about 60 yards. I heard him call and saw him call at the same time - sounded far, but was either a ventriloquist, lip synching, or quiet. Turns out, the other was very near as well. The larger bull (I assume) rushed in and chased off the intruder. I could hear them both at somewhere around 40 yards, but the brush was very thick and I could only catch short glimpses. SO... do elk 'tone it down' and whisper at one another in response to pressure or do they just go silent?

I have seen that too....more often I have seen bulls making tending sounds when close, but never bugle in one location....same bull, different area bugle like crazy.

I think some people just love calling elk, don't want to learn new ways, if they won't come in, find one that will.


I'm the opposite, I don't like calling unless it makes too much sense not to, or to salvage a messed up situation...I have bailed myself out a couple times with bugle after bumping the cows, but I find more success following sign, and making plans until it works...that works everyday of archery season, in any terrain. Swirling winds are my adversary...once I commit and move within bow range, I'm usually on a timer...the wind will not hold steady for long.

Lots of things in the elk woods to keep us humble...from whispering bulls, to uneven winds

[Indian Summer]

I agree that they can be bugling one day and quiet for the next day.There are a lot or reasons for that.But what happens when they go nocturnal and the only place they are is in the timber during the day and keep quiet? Although we think of heavy timber of miles and miles of nothing but trees,there is enough grass and forage for elk survival in those little pockets around springs and such. They are going to eat that,rather than go out in the openings. A person can sit on those openings or watch them until the cows come home and never see an elk during daylight hours. In those situations, a person needs to be flexible and get to where the elk are, not where they are in the dark.
One location I hunt,you can see the elk moving thru little and big openings,but only as vague shapes.Morning and after dusk They will also hug that tree line and only cross an opening when there is no other choice. If they were not moving,you would think they were bushes or? When that happens,a person needs to get back far enough in the timber to be able to see them when there is enough light to shoot.Whether it is archery, ML or rifle hunting

I hear you Saddlesore. That is a common scenario in Montana and the only solution is to still hunt. The elk have plenty of feed and smaller openings inside the timber so watching anything bigger can definitely be a waste of time. But in Wyoming the elk are very accustomed to doing most if not all of their feeding in the open. So even if they won't talk you can still spot them. I love it! Another reason why I choose to hunt where I hunt after years of narrowing it down.

[Swede]

From reading posts and articles for years and hearing stories it is apparent that elk have different habits and responses in different areas or States. One size does not fit all. There are principles that we can follow and elk sounds are the same wherever you go, but hunting needs to be adapted to your situation. That is one reason why learning your area is so valuable.

[ElkNut1]

Basically, elk are elk, no real difference in them from area to area. If you have a lot of pressure they know it & adjust, same with little or no pressure. Do elk purposely communicate on lower tones because of pressure or wolves, not a bit. Elk do not have reasoning capabilities. Sometimes they are TV loud & sometimes they are not, it's all into what message they're sending & if it's urgent, demanding or social. If you are hunting non rutting elk they are fairly quiet compared to an area with cows in estrus no matter where you are. When cows come into estrus it would require an act from God to shut them up it doesn't matter the pressure, the elk will just move off but the cows remain in estrus & this has bulls in a competitive nature until the cows run their short course of being ready to be bred! Find rutting elk & you'll be in vocal elk!

ElkNut1

[saddlesore]

I have to disagree on some of that Paul

Example.I traveled to Yellowstone NP for about ten years during peak rut, the same with Rocky Mountain National Park after the big fires in Yellowstone, so it isn't a few times experience. Elk in those locations bugled all day and all night. I also visited several locations that I hunt while the elk are in full rut ,but had hunter pressure in both archery and ML seasons.
The elk in those areas were noticeably quieter than non-hunted areas, or areas on private land where pressure was minimal. Breeding was taking place,but not lot of vocal elk. That vocalization may be in the middle of the night.

Elk indeed do not have reasoning powers, but do have instincts, a certain amount of cause and effect reactions,and conditioning to adverse or positive events . If they didn't ,you wouldn't have the old cows leading herds to feeding, breeding,and calving grounds, or elk in general being very cautious about human scent in the time of year they are being hunted and yet oblivious to human scent at other times in the year.

When it comes to living vs breeding, elk will take living every time and will adjust to the circumstances so that the breeding can occur.
Same with eating. They will chose living over eating every time,but will find ways to eat , although not as much or quality

[olympushunt]

Cohunter, you are not crazy. Well...maybe not for the aforementioned reason. lol
I'd like to ask those of you who state that elk can NOT be call shy or that it isn't that they are call shy it is a lack of understanding the calls used. Do you feel elk are incapable of being educated, or acquiring learned responses, or being taught? Whatever you want to call it. I can teach a dog(cat, horse etc) to do things so are elk unable to being "taught"? Is their instinct to breed override their survival instinct at all times? Do animals (deer, elk, whatever) become more nocturnal at times due to daylight predation? Can elk modify their behavior and still accomplish their objectives? It sounds like if cows are in heat, the bull(s) are incapable of accomplishing their mission without modifying behavior??????

[saddlesore]

I have been calling elk( maybe wrongly at times) since we use to use metal conduit to make calls.( early 60's)Thought it was big time when they came out with calls made like natural gas flexible hook up tubing. Then along came the plastic Cow Talk.WOW, that worked. Until a bunch of other hunters moved in and started moving around the woods tooting everything they had like a Pied Piper.Even cows got the message.It isn't hard to screw up a cow call, but it isn't very difficult to learn their language either. However as time went on,we found bulls and cows left the country pretty fast whenever this crowd of hunter arrived.Even the slightest mew or calf whine sent them packing.

I believe ( maybe wrongly) that in late August, give or take, when you hear bulls doing that location bugle,they are learning the sounds of all the bulls in the area. Come hunting season, they have either incurred a meeting of such or at least learned the sounds. Enter a bunch of hunters using calls either wrongly or at the wrong time and the elk figure out pretty quick it isn't a bull they know. So even in peak rut, they get more cautious when there is more hunting pressure.Whether it is the wrong call, scent, noise or ? Pretty hard to tell. At least for me.

Interesting comparison. Not about calling though.I have bred, raised, trained, used mules for close to 50 years. I'm pretty well versed in them. Donkeys, the daddy of mules, evolved in rugged desert country where flight was not an option. Horses on the other hand evolved in flat prarie land where the flight instinct was their way of staying alive.

Mules have a higher instinct of self preservation than horses because of this. You can not force a mule to do anything. They will adapt to situation in some way to insure they will not get hurt. Whether that be caught up in a wire, not crossing a muddy bog, selecting where they want to cross a stream and not you,etc. They are pretty close to having a wild animal instinct of just about any animal tamed and used by man. Working with them for so long has given me an appreciation of these things and if I compare the mules mental make of staying safe and alive, I think it is darn close to how an elk survives. Elk will adapt to stay safe and alive . Maybe they can't reason to figure it out, but neither can a mule and it gets done. In the mule world, we say if you want a mule to do something, you need to figure out a way to make the mule think it was his/her idea. I think that correlates to elk hunting. If you want an elk to do some thing, you need to have something in your tool box to get the elk responding like it was it's idea. You need them to adapt to the situation that benefits you but still makes them feel safe.

[olympushunt]

I have been calling elk( maybe wrongly at times) since we use to use metal conduit to make calls.( early 60's)Thought it was big time when they came out with calls made like natural gas flexible hook up tubing. Then along came the plastic Cow Talk.WOW, that worked. Until a bunch of other hunters moved in and started moving around the woods tooting everything they had like a Pied Piper.Even cows got the message.It isn't hard to screw up a cow call, but it isn't very difficult to learn their language either. However as time went on,we found bulls and cows left the country pretty fast whenever this crowd of hunter arrived.Even the slightest mew or calf whine sent them packing.

I believe ( maybe wrongly) that in late August, give or take, when you hear bulls doing that location bugle,they are learning the sounds of all the bulls in the area. Come hunting season, they have either incurred a meeting of such or at least learned the sounds. Enter a bunch of hunters using calls either wrongly or at the wrong time and the elk figure out pretty quick it isn't a bull they know. So even in peak rut, they get more cautious when there is more hunting pressure.Whether it is the wrong call, scent, noise or ? Pretty hard to tell. At least for me.

Interesting comparison. Not about calling though.I have bred, raised, trained, used mules for close to 50 years. I'm pretty well versed in them. Donkeys, the daddy of mules, evolved in rugged desert country where flight was not an option. Horses on the other hand evolved in flat prarie land where the flight instinct was their way of staying alive.

Mules have a higher instinct of self preservation than horses because of this. You can not force a mule to do anything. They will adapt to situation in some way to insure they will not get hurt. Whether that be caught up in a wire, not crossing a muddy bog, selecting where they want to cross a stream and not you,etc. They are pretty close to having a wild animal instinct of just about any animal tamed and used by man. Working with them for so long has given me an appreciation of these things and if I compare the mules mental make of staying safe and alive, I think it is darn close to how an elk survives. Elk will adapt to stay safe and alive . Maybe they can't reason to figure it out, but neither can a mule and it gets done. In the mule world, we say if you want a mule to do something, you need to figure out a way to make the mule think it was his/her idea. I think that correlates to elk hunting. If you want an elk to do some thing, you need to have something in your tool box to get the elk responding like it was it's idea. You need them to adapt to the situation that benefits you but still makes them feel safe.

That's gunna get an "AMEN BROTHER!" from me.

[Swede]

I agree with Saddlesore and Oly. Elk do not change biologically, but they can learn to adapt, and will do it quickly.
I have seen things that I do not fully understand. E.g. Elk being quiet for days/week them a herd goes crazy in a breeding sequence and then quiet again. Then two season ago I watched several herds on the ranch. There was over 100 elk per herd with 10 or more bulls together among them. It was September 20th-24th. Why were these herds still intact? The bulls would answer a bugle, but you could not get one close to the fence. They were like Saddlesore's mules.

[saddlesore]

Instead of Yellowstone, we go up to Rocky Mtn NP about every Sept.There are two big meadows,Horseshoe and Beaver Meadows There are several hundred head of elk in each meadow and quite a few bulls of all ages. The bulls each have their individual harems but all in the same big meadow. You might see a raghorn sneak in and the bull of that harem runs him off,but rarely do you see a big fight. Mostly only posturing. People all around,but they are not permitted to go out in the meadow.Some idiots do though with their point and shoot camera and the rangers have to run them out.

The elk could careless,they are bugling, breeding, laying about in the sun, the calves are playing, without a care in the world.Two months later when the draw only tag season opens, those same elk that leave the park are as wary as can be.They get you scent or see you moving,they are gone.Usually heading back into the park.

I have commented before about the large elk herd that congregates on the private ranches in the Gunnison Basin . You can see them grazing on all the ramparts in the West El k Wilderness in the summer. After the first two days of the first rifle season,they are gone.Headed to those private ranches. How do they know to do that?

[ElkNut1]

Saddlesore, that's the main point! Elk go quiet in areas there is heavy hunting pressure! Elk stay more vocal in non pressured areas! Put a general hunting season in yellowstone & in 5 years those elk would be more like hunting pressured elk. Same would be true if you stopped all hunting in areas that have hunting pressure now, they then would be more like the yellowstone elk! Too, non hunted areas have a lot more elk than areas that are heavily hunted. It's pressure that dictates things!

My separate point on bulls bugling when cows come into estrus stays the same. No matter where you hunt when cows come in bulls will bugle, no pressure will stop it! You have to be there at that time! Dates mean little, cows don't have calendars & cannot control when they are ready to be bred. You can push elk out of the area at that time of breeding but you cannot stop them entirely from bugling for the cows attention. They will re-group & be right back at it!

ElkNut1

[Swede]

You just have to love this kind of dialog. W.T. is absolutely the best site for this. Seasoned hunters like Elknut and Saddlesore discussing elk hunting from different points of view and experiences. We are all better off from the conversation.
When I hear a rare breeding activity it lasts for only a few minutes. So to Elknut: Is that what you are referring to when you say only God could turn off the bugling and other elk noise?
To anyone: If that is the focus, how do you find or set up for these situations?

[saddlesore]

I don't know if this is what Paul means, but when elk breed ,the action itself takes maybe 15 seconds.

[Swede]

Saddlesore, that is what I have witnessed. If that is what Paul is referring to, you are not going to find that every year where I have hunted. Most breeding is done at night. That leaves me out for the most part of the breeding dance.

[WapitiTalk1]

Off and on throughout September, there are cows coming into estrus somewhere on the mountain (yes, the majority of them around the third week of the month). Elk in general, need food, water, and security throughout the year but during the rut, the bull's add and put something else very high on that list.... finding, holding on to, and breeding cows as they come into their 1st or subsequent estrus cycle. I believe that is what Elknut was referring to. A hot cow in the mix almost trumps those other three needs of bull's during the period of the rut and resultant from that phenomenon, they will quite often throw at least a good portion of caution to the wind so to speak and respond vocally to a threat from another bull (or, an invite from what may be a cow inviting him over to boogie). Even when hunting pressure, wolves moving into the area, crazy weather changes, etc., has changed the elk patterns and overall elk chatter, breeding is still so ingrained and prioritized in the bull's mind, that he "will" vocalize and continue with his herding, protecting what's his, fighting off challengers, and breeding mission... particularly if you get close to him.

[Swede]

Well, if Paul or anyone is saying that the bulls are in some kind of uncontrolled bugling mode for an extended period, meaning more than a few minutes, they are doing it silently where I hunt. For the most part the bulls take their cows and leave the public land. The few remaining are as quiet as a stone, except for a few minute breeding sequence. Those breeding periods, where the bulls go crazy bugling, are about as rare as warts on Miss America.

[WapitiTalk1]

There are such mythical places sir

[Swede]

And princesses still go around kissing frogs, but not where I hunt.

[WapitiTalk1]

No princesses where I hunt but I swear, the frogs bugle, grunt, rake, wallow, and chuckle in Elktember .

[Roosiebull]

Well, if Paul or anyone is saying that the bulls are in some kind of uncontrolled bugling mode for an extended period, meaning more than a few minutes, they are doing it silently where I hunt. For the most part the bulls take their cows and leave the public land. The few remaining are as quiet as a stone, except for a few minute breeding sequence. Those breeding periods, where the bulls go crazy bugling, are about as rare as warts on Miss America.

it seems a lot of that comes with herd dynamics, as you know, in our state, most units are below MO, and our bull to cow ratio isn't too hot compared to many other elk states, or even units within our state.

the lack of bull vocalization I think is often as simple as there is a lack of competition, no reason to bugle much. most of the time, I am hunting elk with one bigger herd bull (not always, or even usually big) with no other branch bulls around, those bulls are pretty quiet it seems.

where I spent lots of my time in the past, there were always 3 or 4 groups of elk, each had a branch bull or 2, those elk are always more vocal, they have to be. the biggest bulls I have been around were either solo, even the last week of the season (I assume they keep tabs on all of the local herds, let the young bulls gather the cows, come in to breed them as they come into estrous) or they have 6 or 8 cows and stay low profile....or they come out of the woodwork the third week of the season.

the less elk, the less they talk...small groups don't seem to be very chatty.

the cool thing about elk hunting, a guy who likes to call bulls in, can find an area to fit his style.....but us who don't plan on calling in a bull can find areas that fit that style...both can be successful every year, both require keeping a good attitude through slow times, both require improvise to be consistently successful.

[ORelksniper]

it seems a lot of that comes with herd dynamics, as you know, in our state, most units are below MO, and our bull to cow ratio isn't too hot compared to many other elk states, or even units within our state.

the lack of bull vocalization I think is often as simple as there is a lack of competition, no reason to bugle much. most of the time, I am hunting elk with one bigger herd bull (not always, or even usually big) with no other branch bulls around, those bulls are pretty quiet it seems.

Roosie, for what it's worth I think you are dead on with your assessment. The fewer bulls in a given area during the rut, the less vocal they need to be. Certainly my experience in the units I hunt.

[Wahpeton]

Guys,

Great read on a lot of really well thought out insight.

Thanks for sharing.

[Swede]

Not only are breeding frenzies rare where I have been hunting, it has been over five years since I have heard a for sure location bugle on public land. Roosiebull may be right, but I think there are two other factors also playing into the situation. There are too many human buglers and heavy cattle usage that are pushing most elk onto private land.

[Wahpeton]

The last two years when we are packing up camp on Monday after the Colorado archery season closed, bugles in every direction.

I'm pretty sure that they have a copy of the Game and Fish Proclamation and a calendar?

Just sayin....

[ElkNut1]

swede, you're a treestand hunter. You're no where near their breeding areas, how do you expect to hear multiple bulls competing for cows in estrus! (grin) You need to be where the elk are living & breeding at the right times! We hear this action every year in nearly all the states we've hunted. Here in ID you will generally hear it a couple days out of hunting 25 days. Outside of that you are generally hearing mostly Advertising Bugles more than anything else! If you want to get into bugling bulls you will have to burn some serious boot leather for aprox 10 days to 14 days straight! (grin) I think you feel that bulls are bugling everywhere & we are having a tough time choosing what bulls to go after! (grin) No sir, it's not like that at all, you earn every bugle you will hear & do your best to make the best of them. That's how most of OTC DIY Public land elk hunting is! Hopefully you will see this with Rory this year!

ElkNut1

[Swede]

I agree with what Paul just posted. I am sure there are places where elk are calling more than where I hunt, and if I got out where there were more elk I would hear more breeding sequences. I am really thinking about a new hunting area well away from my old haunts. For the long haul I want to stay in Oregon, but another place I visited a couple of years ago has the elk moving off public land early in the season, then the bulls come back with their cows shortly before the close of archery season. I am not too hot on that either as much of the season the elk are mostly gone. One thing I think is if you are hunting high quality units, you are going to have more good elk encounters.
I was not born a tree stand hunter. Honestly. I gravitated to it much out of necessity as out of anything else.

[ElkNut1]

LOL! I hear ya bud! I know you're a very good hunter! Find other areas & stay away from that private stuff as well as agriculture areas as many hunters will not be far from either of them. I have over 40 areas I can flip a coin to head too each year here in ID, I use a ton of them every year as in many cases I do not like going to the same place two days in a row, I'm running & gunning though not sitting! Don't get me wrong I do on a rare occasion hit an area two days in a row, but rarely! Good Luck on your sorta new venture! (grin)

ElkNut1

[saddlesore]

Elk moving to private land is a VERY big problem in Colorado.Not so much in archery or ML season,but they do start then when that first rifle shot is heard, they go to scootin. If not there,they head for the meanest,steepest thickest cover they can find.

I think they have developed some kind of elk talk that says " Shhsssssss, be quite,there are hunters about". It would be great if Paul could spend some time and figure out that communication.

[Elkhunttoo]

Paul, I'm wondering on your flip a coin on your area comment. Last year I found several new good areas and I'm wondering what you use to help you choose where to go on any given day?

[ElkNut1]

Vince, yes hunting near private would require some serious patience & probably best hunting their travel routes to destination spots! Those elk that get hammered by countless hunters smarten up real quick if they want to survive! (grin)

Elkhuntoo, when I say I have spots or areas I generally don't refer to A SPOT. Let's say I'm hunting a morning, I'm heading towards an area that has elk in it the past so there's a chance some are nearby, I'll call to locate or listen to hear if they will call on their own. If no elk there I keep moving through the area & look for others since I'm already there for the day. I will travel 7-10 miles total that day on foot looking for vocal elk, sooner or later I find them! If an evening hunt I will go to a single spot, not a lot of daylight left so I keep it more simple & doable. Sometimes I head to vantage points & glass till dark. If I do that I do not move around, I stay in that spot & glass last two hours of light. If elk are found I will head their way before daylight to be in the area at first light.

ElkNut1

[CurlyTail]

If I really think that there are Elk in a valley, but they will not sound off - I have had some success with an Advertising Sequence.

We pick a good set-up spot. Then start to Bugle, rake, huff, and stomp almost non-stop for 20 min. or so. Trying to keep the Bugles from sounding identical. During quiet phases, we look and listen intently, hoping for an answering Bugle, or perhaps thundering hoofs, or perhaps a snapped branch.

We do this on Public Land in Colorado. It feels so ridiculous to be making all that ruckus in the otherwise still and silent valley - feels a bit crazy to do, especially when it doesn't work. But in the right spot - I put our success rate at almost 50% for getting some type of response, including some shot opportunities.

The problem is predicting where they will come from when you don't know where they are. They come in on high alert and sometimes fast. We have missed some shot opportunities by not being prepared and too slow when it is time to stop em. We try to limit their options with our set up location. Maybe up against a steep slope or rock formation, maybe at the bottom of a narrow ravine(caller), with the shooter just over the lip partially concealed. Maybe in the middle of a small but thick Aspen grove(caller), with the shooter on lookout at the periphery.

When it works - talk about exciting! When it doesn't -you are not out much if there were no elk there anyway. We try not to do this in an area that has other hunters around.

[ElkNut1]

Jim, great point with using a Breeding Sequence during some of those quiet times when you feel elk are within earshot!

ElkNut1

[>>>---WW---->]

Pay close attention to what Rossiebull said. He seems to have a better handle on this subject than most. I get the impression that he has been around the block a time or two when it comes to elk hunting. If not, he sure learns things mighty fast. Most of the others are just personal opinions. Some may be based on fact or what they may have experienced a time or two in the past. But a lot of them remind me of an old saying from years ago. " If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with BS "!

[saddlesore]

Not taking anything away from Rossiebull, but my experience covers 50 years, with less than a half dozen elk seasons in that time missed and in the last 6-8 years ,two elk seasons a year.Very few of those I did not punch a tag. That is a smidge more than a time or two. There are several here that are close to the same, maybe lacking a few years. Each has offered, what I consider, good advice for the various areas they hunt and we all know different areas require different tactics as elk will act differently. I don't remember anyone posting on this thread where I would say run up the BS flag. Of course, that is just my personal opinion

[Swede]

I agree that Roosiebull adds a very good perspective and valuable input to the conversation. I don't think he is that last or only word in this regard. Others have valuable experiences and input too. We often see things differently based a lot on where and how we hunt. The proof for that is the success Elknut and crew have in their area hunting the way they do. Others have success doing things differently because they are hunting a different environment. What you can take from a thread like this is; not everything works the same in the elk world, even though as Elknut says, they are the same creatures everywhere they exist. Just like people or other animals, they adapt to their area. Or they die.

[Da White Shoe]

At some point, this happens to us just about every year. They shut up for no apparent reason. I think human scent, both scenting a hunter directly and ground scent... could be part of it in some cases. I've also seen them go silent for no apparent reason. No hunters in the area, whatsoever. A lot of times, we'll get into a herd with satellite bulls badgering the herd bull. You'll hear them going nuts for a day... maybe two. Then, everything goes quiet in the area. But, there's been multiple times that we've went farther in and found them again... doing the same thing they were doing a couple days ago when they were closer to our spike camp.
The one thing I have found to be true... where we hunt in Colorado, at least.... even if they're absolutely silent around you, if you run into a concentration of elk with multiple bulls... and it's September.... you're going to hear some bugling.