Tell Me Again

[Swede]

I just want to start a discussion or maybe a wholesome argument, but tell me again why I should go around with a diaphragm in my mouth all day do some bugling or cow calling for elk. I swore after giving away my third Thunder bugle that I was not going to buy another.
When fellow hunters hear the Thunder Bugle they want one, and I have given them away and always go back to my diaphragm. After listening to Glen Berry this past summer I broke down and bought another. It is easy to make great sounds with, and with a cow call or two handy, I can make all the sounds I want or need.
So someone tell me what a disadvantage it is to carry a Thunder Bugle, and a cow call the size of a stick of chewing gum (Jones cow call) and/or some other small bite and blow cow call.
No one has wanted one of my used diaphragms, so they wear out with just my DNA on them. They will clean up a Thunder Bugle for their own use, or they use it as is.

[WapitiTalk1]

Dang it. I had a long post/response typed up and then hit the wrong key and deleted it. Will try again later

[Swede]

Dang it. I had a long post/response typed up and then hit the wrong key and deleted it. Will try again later

Now you will have more time to think up that great response.

[Backyard]

So where does one acquire one of these Thunder Bugles besides from you Swede? Youve got my curiosity up.


Aim small.
Dave

[WapitiTalk1]

So where does one acquire one of these Thunder Bugles besides from you Swede? Youve got my curiosity up. Aim small.
Dave

Dave, Thunder Bugles are available through Berry Game Calls (see banner and text link above). They are arguably one of the absolute best internal reed elk bugles on the market and have been so for many, many years. Affectionately called the "Thunderstick" at my camp

http://berryhuntingcalls.com/product/thunder-bugle-3/

[WapitiTalk1]

Carrying a Thunder Bugle (or a grunt tube/diaphragm combo) and either a diaphragm or internal reed cow call is absolutely an advantage vs a disadvantage in my books. After all, we are primarily talking about hunting during the wapiti rut, yes? This is the time where the elk are the most vocal (communicating their needs, desires, challenges, warnings, etc.) and when hunter made elk sounds are deployed appropriately (timing/sound quality), they are nothing less than elk combat multipliers. Calling/making verbal elk noises is not always the best play at hand dependent upon the situation, but, are essential in many cases to close the deal or solicit an initial response.

[Swede]

So where does one acquire one of these Thunder Bugles besides from you Swede? Youve got my curiosity up.

You are starting off great Dave. If you were in camp with me, you would try to "see" mine and admire it some. Then blow on it and say; I wish I had one like that as they make a great sound. By that time you are the owner of a slightly used Thunder Bugle with a couple of spare diaphragms to go with it.

RJ, it is hard to argue with you. Some folks don't care much for the old Jones Cow Call or the Cow Talk calls. The claim is that they don't sound realistic enough. I think they do, but doubt it really matters. It is the hunter blowing on them that makes them work. They are just a small piece of plastic with an internal reed. The reed in the Cow Talk is a regular rubber band. You can stretch it out to sound like a cow on one end and a calf on the other. If you can't tell the difference, it doesn't make a difference. Swede recommends a new rubber band each year for your Cow Talk. If you can't afford one, then keep the old one in the dark until you are ready to use it.

[lamrith]

Got to hear a Thunderstick in elk camp this year and MAAANNN to they thunder! For many calls, it seemed to work very well, and teamed with a good cow call (I like the Mellow Yellow) you have a very potent pairing. The advantage I can see to a mouth Diaphram and bugle tube is that being in mouth you have the ability to really alter the way the call works and sounds to a greater degree. The sky is the limit in terms of altering or making sounds. That can be a good and bad thing, as you can REALLY hose sounds up just as easy as make them good. I might have been guilty of some sounding like some "newly discovered species" a few times this season with a diaphram call..

[Swede]

Lamrith, I appreciate your comment. To be honest that was what I was looking for when I started this thread. I believe you stated well the common belief about diaphragm vs. typical blow type bugles. With the Thunder bugle, the grunt tube is attached to the diaphragm. If you are going to use a grunt tube, and we all do, what is the advantage to having the diaphragm already in your mouth? As for variety of sounds, the Thunder Bugle has about as much as any other diaphragm. I can do a decent cow call on mine or a bark for that matter. Bugles all come out sounding excellent.
If anyone is happy with their diaphragm and grunt tube and can use it well, there is little of no advantage to changing, but if you have any trouble with an in mouth diaphragm, consider a Thunder Bugle. I have not tried all external reed/diaphragm bugles, so I can't rate them, but the Thunder Bugle is by far the best one I have used. I don't feel any reservation with heading to the woods with one. They are easy to use and sound great.

[WapitiTalk1]

I might have been guilty of some sounding like some "newly discovered species" a few times this season with a diaphram call..

I thought you were mixing in those Emu and Wildebeest sounds on purpose, just to mix it up......

[Backyard]

Thanks RJ, I will definitely be checking them out!
And Swede, haha, that almost sounds like an invitation to visit your camp for some tutoring. Thanks! But I dont know if I could handle the drive that far out and back. Fifteen hours alone one way this year bout did me in. Lol!


Aim small.
Dave

[lamrith]

I might have been guilty of some sounding like some "newly discovered species" a few times this season with a diaphram call..

I thought you were mixing in those Emu and Wildebeest sounds on purpose, just to mix it up......

squaaaaak

[Lefty]

Darn you Swede
Ive been trying to lay low on bugles and other elk calls and be happy( and cheap ) with what I have
Call collecting is a problem for me,.. Some of those acrylic goose calls are spendy,..

But as to why carry a bugle? when I know you would rather be setting on your back side somewhere up tree.
Well, while it didn't happen this year like last year, there is a real adrenaline rush when you bring a bull in blowing snot and bulging eye balls, and peeing up and down his legs looking for a fight,.. the experience isn't like some bull sauntering in to get a drink of water


Teasing aside, I am looking for something for my daughter for Christmas

[BrentLaBere]

I think its a great call, considering the other choices for an internal reed call. I have only been around one in the elk woods and it sure did sound good. Personally, after practicing enough with a diaphragm I wouldn't go to one. But, when ive heard the flute bugle terminator in the elk woods I cant help but wonder why they wouldn't want to carry a thunder bugle instead?

[Trumkin the Dwarf]

Hey Swede, if I understand your question, you are asking more about reason for having a diaphram call, than about the bugle, correct?

I think the real beauty of a diaphragm call in your mouth all day, is for situations where you need to call without moving a bite-n-blow from your neck to your mouth and back. With a diaphragm you can hit full draw, wait till they hit an opening, and stop them in their tracks. Or you can freeze when you bust something, wait till it can't see you super well, and hit it with a popping grunt to stop it and bring it back in for a shot. You may only get half a second to draw, and you need your hand on the string, not on a call.

[Swede]

Trumpkin, my point was that there is little or no difference for 90% of all callers if the diaphragm is attached to the grunt tube or not. As far as the inconvenience of pulling out a bite and blow call, I wonder can't you make a good bark with your voice to stop the elk?
For the most part, I just wanted a discussion. Certainly some people prefer a diaphragm in their mouth. The problem I see is that we can be elitists and think we are better hunters. I liken it to fly fishermen that think their way is superior to a guy out with a worm on a hook. They have their reasoning for the way they feel too, but is it really valid? Anyone with the ability to blow, can make a Thunder Bugle work well in a few minutes. They don't need months and years of practice. Just my opinion. It is also my opinion that we can easily make calling elk too complicated. It doesn't need to be.

[Trumkin the Dwarf]

Trumpkin, my point was that there is little or no difference for 90% of all callers if the diaphragm is attached to the grunt tube or not.

Oh, gotcha! I don't have an argument with that sentiment. I make much more better bull elky noises(quite a description, eh? ) with an attached reed/grunt tube than with a diaphragm/grunt tube. At least for location bugles. I actually alternate between the diaphraghm and the attached reed depending on what noise I want to make with my bugle.

[CurlyTail]

Here is my take

I think you can make some excellent , realistic Elk sounds on a Bugle Tube, but every sound is the same as the last one. Not easy to change volume, not easy to instill "emotion" into the call.

A diaphragm call in your mouth is more difficult to master, but once proficient, gives greater versatility and realism.

I think either can work, in the hands of someone with a trained ear who knows what sounds they are trying to duplicate. Most guys have not listened to enough real Elk sounds to know it their calling is realistic or not.

[Dr. Rx]

"solicit an initial response"

as RJ said... you need a way to solicit an initial response...what other way would you suggest to solicit an initial response?

Kris

[Tigger]

With my diaphragm, I am both a cow and a bull. To me that is the biggest difference. the hands free thing is also big. To me it is all about practicality (not style).

However, should a hunter shoot an elk by any means other than using a diaphragm call, it is clearly a lesser elk and the hunter should be shunned at all social engagements.

[ElkNut1]

I'm along the line of CurlyTails thoughts! He is hitting on the very reasons why most elk hunters choose a Grunt Tube & Mouth reed these days. External reed bugles are very predictable in sound & tougher to be creative with. Some hunters can conqueror them being creative with them but 95% cannot, this denotes predictable calling that is heard by us hunters as well as the elk! In highly pressured areas it can be a real challenge to have success with their use. There's a world of difference in locating elk with a bugle & another challenge to get them in bowrange through calling when needed.

Being versatile with a single mouth reed allows you to make any sound a bull or cow can make, this is huge when in close encounters with elk. Some hunters limit their calling to a location bugle & cow chatter & really do not go beyond those realms because they feel it's all that's needed. Is this really true? From my experience these basic sounds are needed no doubt, but to be a proficient caller of elk us hunters must think beyond those basics to be consistently above average in taking elk in most every year. This is so in OTC Public Land elk hunts, the better you sell yourself as one of them (elk) the higher your odds will be in close encounters. This means communicating with the elk you are calling not just throwing out an elk sound because you only know one or two of them. When elk talk they are sending a message, what message are you sending back, you must ask yourself that when calling elk? Is your calling making sense to that situation, are you understanding what you are hearing? Most hunters have no idea so toss out cow sounds as the Safest way to respond because they fear they will blow elk out of the country if they try anything else, this is a lack of confidence & knowledge on their part.

Those of us who rely on a wide variety of sounds at our disposal will find in many instances we are handicapped with just an external reed bugle. As we grow & are able to use mouth reeds proficiently your confidence level will also grow as well as your knowledge of using the right response back at the right time. If unable to use mouth reeds then do your absolute best to master your bugle of choice & a very good cow call or 3 so you can mix up sounds as required by the encounter at hand.


RX, the most common Bugle Sound used by hunters & elk is a Non-Intimidation Location Bugle. This bugle can be used in a variety of ways & length & in sound. Bull Elk will vary in age in their use of this sound so this sound can be heard & used by immature bulls to mature bulls & anything in-between. Sound perfection is not needed, your tone will dictate to other elk your aprox age. A good caller can sound like any aged elk he prefers to choose at a given time.

As far as Location sounds to be considered in an effort to have elk give away their position to us we use a large variety of them on different occasions. It's not uncommon for us to use basic cow chatter from social mews & whines to Regathering, Separated, Contact Buzz, & others as we try to get other elk to sound off with sounds that can require assistance from other elk. For bull sounds we can go to Lip Bawls, Advertising Bugles, A Bull giving 2-3 cow mews & go right into a short bugle scream with no hesitation between sound transfer, this shows it's a bull making these sounds & not a cow & a bull. In many instances this can initiate a response from bulls within earshot as this sound sequence is generally used as a bull is calling a cow his way. A Challenge can be heard by a nearby bull. As you can see we will try different sounds depending on the day & in an effort to trigger a response from other elk that may be around but not seen! A variety of Location Bugles is still my favorite but I'm ready to go another direction with a different sound if need be! Being Creative & ready to experiment with various sounds can & does pay great dividends at times! This is all a part of calling elk & hunting elk on their turf! We do our best to be one of them!

ElkNut1

[saddlesore]

The biggest reason for me is once you get to the age where you have dentures, a mouth reed can't be used.In addition I have always had a highly sensitive gag reflex. Making sounds like the dry heaves when you put the reed in your mouth is not conducive to elk calling.
Of course, I'm a lowly rifle or ML hunter, but have no problems calling elk with external reeds.I have had good luck using the mouth piece with Elknut's Little Chuckler bugle, a Sceery call and one other

[Dr. Rx]

Thank you Elk nut!

[Swede]

I believe that we all can do just as well with a good bite and blow call, as long as we understand the basics of what we are telling the elk. We do not need a large elk vocabulary either to fool an animal that will bugle back at a rusty gate hinge. As far as all of the fine nuance values of an in the mouth diaphragm, hummm, I just don't see it where I hunt. Comparing the Thunder Bugle with a separate diaphragm. grunt tube type mostly boils down to whether we want the diaphragm in our mouth all day or are we satisfied with having the diaphragm attached to the grunt tube. Personally it make little difference to me.
This reminds me, that some fly fishermen look down on their worm and hook counter parts. But which is really better? I do not believe there is a "right" or "wrong" answer. The fly is not more versatile than the worm or vice versa. They both work well when used correctly. The same is true, and the analogy fits the Thunder Bugle versus the in the mouth diaphragm.
Just my humble but accurate opinion.