Herd Bull or Satellite?

[WapitiTalk1]

On the tail of Heartwood's "Bull located, now what" thread, let's talk about this (the two topics go hand in hand). Without a visual, how do you determine if that answer you receive (or heard unsolicited) is a herd bull or a satellite? Your tactics and calling may very well be different, even starting from a distance, for a herd bull versus a satellite bull. What are you thoughts on how to determine, from a distance, by perhaps sound or actions alone whether a bull is a dominant herd bull or a lone, herd harassing satellite bull?

[Swede]

Unless I can see or hear multiple animals, I don't know. Hearing may include cow sounds or hoofs moving gravel or brush. It can include bugles from nearby bulls. The voice of the animal is a poor indicator especially in areas where a decent 4X4 can be a herd bull.

[twinkieman]

By the bugle I receive back from him, and hopefully more than just one bugle. If he bugles back with hard grunts on the end of his bugle, I will know he is a herd bull. Do I also hear cows, if so herd bull. Does he start giving sounds when not responding to me, of a bull keeping his cows in line. Listening how he responds to my bugle , is my key to unlocking what he is.

[Ryan Conkle]

I agree on the type of bugle that I receive as a response, such as if it is a challenge bugle coupled with hard grunts', in which the bull is threating me to stay away from his harem, which would indicate a herd bull to me, versus more of a less aggressive location type bugle with some light chuckling thrown in, which would lead me more in the direction of a satellite bull. I believe that the type and nature of the response that is received from the bull is the key to interpreting this answer, I do think that the pitch of the bugle can be an indicator, although is misleading at times'.

[Swede]

RJ was asking how to differentiate between bulls "at a distance". I would think "at a distance" is not within the comfort zone where you get a different reaction. At a distance I don't get hard grunts. The herd bull will bugle for a long time and there is no extra action with it. I have watched herds where they could not see me 300+ yards away. I would call and the bull would call back. He does not come. He knows where you are and is comfortable. I have watched satellite bulls near the herd and they will bugle too. There are no hard grunts from any of the elk. They seem to have things sorted out between themselves and you are no problem either.

[Heartwood]

I know it is not 100% reliable but many times we can tell if a bull is dominate by the sound of his bugle only. I agree that the type of bugle he gives is a great indicator. Is he talking to his cows with chucles, lip bawls, screams? Is he responding to satalites or my own bugles with grunts? If yes to any of these then herd bull. Usually with a larger heard that has satalite bulls we can discern which one is the boss, then we decide which one to pursue. I have sat at night during september many times and listened to elk herds talk and when there is a hot cow, man oh man it is not hard to tell which one is keeping cows. These discussions really get me fired up for the hunt.

[twinkieman]

At 300 yds, and I got a bugling response, if I were unable to discern, herd bull or satellite, I would move in without calling, and wait to see if he spoke again, I may have to give him some cow calls to get him talking, and eventually, I would decide which he was. If I get it right, I'll respond correctly, if I get it wrong, another learning from elk encounter

[Charina]

I don't care. 1) first season going archery, so if it's brown, it's down, and 2) I'm moving in silently if it is bugling in response. I'm of the opinion that if you have a good idea of an elk's location, and it's within a couple hundred yards, it's a good first step to shut up and move in and let him talk while he's giving away location. I've called in a few, but I've also done pretty well just shutting up and following the bugle. Just move in an put eyes on it!

If it's truly a satellite orbiting a herd, then the satellite's bugle should get a response from the herd bull he's harassing. That should help hearing the two go back and forth to distinguish who is who. Or perhaps you were referring to a satellite as any lone bull, whether or not orbiting a herd?

And a few tongue-in-cheek responses:

If you cow call and it comes in, it's not the herd bull. One in the bush is not worth two in hand - unless that one in the bush is really persuasive/seductive.

If you slip between the bull and any nearby cows and give an aggressive bugle, and it runs off, it's not the herd bull.

If you get a shot at it and miss, it wasn't the herd bull. If you get a shot at it and drop him, it was the herd bull (just a really small one).

If you shot it, it was the herd bull. If your buddy shot it, it was just a satellite.

[WapitiTalk1]

Good discussion gentlemen. Here’s my meager thoughts on the topic. It's oftentimes quite difficult to discern between a SAT and a herd bull from a distance (most certainly the case without a visual). Sure, sometimes you can tell from their actions (vocalizations/mannerisms) but not always. So yes, if you hear a bull screaming obscenities back at a harassing SAT or two that are trying to grab a cow as the herd feeds or is moving, then sure... there's probably a herd bull in the mix. By just an answer or unsolicited bugle alone, BIG or small, it's tough to tell from a distance (herd bulls don’t always sound BIG). If you're hunting an area you're familiar with, oftentimes you know who frequents that area and when you hear him/them while you’re working your way in to spot X, you already have an idea of what's going on (moving to bed/feed, advertising from a mountainside wallow, etc.) from previous patterning. Early in the season, a herd bull may be and often times is a smaller bull (i.e., rag horn, 5 PT, or a brand spanking new 6 PT) that is doing his best to be the man. As September rolls on and the cows start coming into estrus, the man is oftentimes displaced by the MAN and the former herd bull becomes a SAT. Those bulls who have lived a few years longer oftentimes hang back and do not establish themselves as the Alpha male until the cows start smelling sweet; perhaps they’ve learned to conserve all the energy it takes for the rut, or, perhaps they’re just wise? Without a visual, it’s very hard to determine for sure whether a noisy bull is a herd or SAT and a positive ID can’t really be made until you get much closer where you can really hear or even see what is going on at spot X. It’s best to just move towards the vocal bull(s) and make your determination once you get much closer and then plan your next move. Like Heartwood mentioned in his thread “if that bull has and is keeping cows then he is a herd bull at least on that day and time. If I treat him like a herd bull, he has to act like a herd bull or risk looking weak to his cows”. I really like that analysis!

And Charina's comments: "If you get a shot at it and miss, it wasn't the herd bull. If you get a shot at it and drop him, it was the herd bull (just a really small one). If you shot it, it was the herd bull. If your buddy shot it, it was just a satellite." Priceless!

[ElkNut1]

Great question with great comments from all, I enjoy reading others thoughts on situational encounters as this especially Charina's! LOL!! Love that one too Rory!

For me personally I try to keep things simple, this means when I'm Bugling well before daylight or Running & Gunning during the rut for Location purposes in heavily timbered country I listen for Herd bull feedback! What is this? It's a report back from a bull that is warning or intimidating me to stay away. 2nd, I listen for a Round Up or Lip Bawl Bugle where that bull is talking to his cows, not me, only bulls with cows use this to round up their cows for possible escape. With these two sounds in mind it makes it easy to tag any other bugle as a satellite! That's what's worked for me for many years now with better than 95% accuracy. Yes, once in a while we can be wrong but I'll play those odds anyday! (grin)

It's more like a quick process of elimination.

ElkNut1

[Swede]

Getting back to the original question: Nine times out of ten when I get a response to a location bugle; it is a simple location bugle. If I hear a location bugle the other bulls in the country chime in with a like response. I sometimes have to make a choice as to which one to pursue. My choice will be to go for the biggest deepest sounding one or the closest. Usually I need to close in to determine if it is a herd bull. There are times that the elk are sounding off and I can hear threats or cows or satellites, but that is less common. Later in the season which was not in the question, I am more likely to pick up on herd sounds, but still it is less common than the single location response. It seems the bulls like to know where everyone is, and if you are far enough away, they are comfortable.
I see Elknut narrowed down his response to the time of the rut, and in heavy timber. Still, I am hearing the scenario he describes less often that simple location bugles where bulls are trying to just make contact. Probably that is partly, but not completely due to the fact that most bulls are not herd bulls.
I guess I am wondering if what I have been witnessing is different than what others are?