Passive Agressive Bulls ?

[Huntrgathr]

Reading Paul's "Episode 3" encounter with a bull who ran off when challenged, I thought back to our recent hunt where it seemed like every bull we challenged just ran off - even the big ones. Between my partner and I, this happened at least a dozen times. It sucks to spend sometimes hours getting into a herd bull's face, challenge him and watch the herd immediately just run off. We just quit doing it after awhile. After, close to 20 bulls called in in 3 weeks, I ended up basically spot and stalking the bull I killed with just a handful of cow sounds thrown in to keep tabs on his location. We would call in lots of satellites and some herd bulls with breeding sounds and cow talk. Bulls were very talkative in general but they had absolutely no interest in coming to a challenge with only one exception. Even when I managed to call down half of a herd bull's cows he STILL stayed right where he was, answering our every attempt but not coming closer. That setup was probably too far for a "real" challenge but most times we were inside of 80 yards...

So what gives ?! In all the time we were there I only saw one bull with a broken tine and never heard any fights or sparring. Were these bulls just "lovers, not fighters" ?

[wapitloco]

Sounds like the way my season went. You weren't hunting in colorado unit 61 where you? Out of about 20 bulls that i got in their face I only had 2 that even came my way. I even had them take off when only cow calling. I also noticed that most of the bugles I heard were just location type with no aggression and very few chuckles. I even had one bull that I managed to get between him and his cows and he wouldn't challenge me. Talk about frustrating to to wait 12 years to draw this tag and to have more elk than you know what to do with and cant get a shot because they won't come in that last little bit. Ohh and most days the bulls would bugle all day long! But it was still by far the most fun and exciting hunt I have ever had. This past Saturday was one I'll never forget where there were 5 bulls bugling and huge group of turkeys gobbling back and forth and I was right in the middle of it all!

[ElkNut1]

Chris, we need to evaluate things a bit more here. First off, elk are not robots, you do not use a particular method & all bulls react according to what we want to happen. Take the episode 3 you mentioned, that bull did not run off! He merely went back enough because he was unsure of his opponent & so stayed at a safe distance from him, this is why I was on him 4 times that morning, this is common in heavily hunted areas where bulls as this are harassed by other hunters. This bull wanted to see this challenger especially after being hounded for a week by other hunters which is what I found out as I drove down the dirt road & talked with them. The terrain was very thick but I had him in range 4 times at 40 yards & under, that's pretty darned good when hunting so called "town bulls" it was the thick under growth that saved his butt! (grin)

In your case & others similar you cannot Challenge a herd bull because he has cows, he has to be rutting because of hot cows!! This means there has to be a cow or cows in estrus/heat. This is when a herd bull is ripe for the picking & is very defensive! A close bugle with power (Advertising) not a squealy youngster that is no real threat to him or his herd is what can get it done. When cows are not in estrus a challenge bugle at nearly any distance accomplishes little. Too, I noticed in your write up you could see these elk from time to time in your bugling challenges, that's a no no! You can not give any elk the luxury of seeing anywhere close where your calling is coming from without them having to come into bowrange. You will lose that encounter nearly every time! You do not want to see the elk bull or cow that you are trying to lure your way no matter how well you think you are hidden!

If at any time you were seen or winded even in the slightest way you now have given these elk a reason to stay back as they want to now see you or these other elk you are impersonating!

Too, once you blow the 1st encounter then the 2nd--3rd & 4th ones become increasingly difficult to call those bulls in, they can be educated real quick knowing something isn't right no matter how great your calling is. Your 1st attempt is generally your best chance! After that good luck on mature herd bulls!

ElkNut1

[Huntrgathr]

Thanks Paul. Was hoping to hear your thoughts...

We did get the sense that challenged bulls wanted to see us before committing. We were in pretty open country by elk standards as opposed to some the jungles we've hunted before- habitat you were in with your encounter(s). We had much more success calling in these herd bulls with estrus sounds but we found out too late that we needed to have the shooter inside 100 on the bull and the callee 100-150 yards behind the shooter. Bulls were investigating, often willing to meet halfway but they were prone to circling into the wind very early, hence the "long" setups...
We only attempted Calling to bulls that were in the open or calling from the open ( lots of openings ) a few times. Younger bulls will fall for this but like you said, if you can see them it's generally not a high percentage setup.

It's hard to know with any certainty if a herd bull has a hot cow or not. And it seems like the challenge is a make or break tactic. They either come charging in or they charge away. I think in several encounters if we had called more conservatively or did call and stalk setups instead of challenging bulls we would've done better. If I had gotten maybe 25 yards further out of the wind, we had a here bull coming. That bull circled almost 200 yards out from the caller...

[ElkNut1]

Chris, you experienced what elk/bulls do when called to while in open country, this is why you want to shy away from it & bid your time patiently until in the cover! That's when they can be called to for best results for the reasons I mentioned above.

You say we only called to them a few times while in the open & some came part way & others did not. That's a lot of calling to elk that do not see other elk that they expect to see! How many times is too many? (grin) Point being do not call at those times it does more harm than good, it makes the next time even harder to convince them you are one of them. So many times hunters feel just because they call to elk that elk should just come running their way, that's rarely the case. Your best bet when in the open when possible is to slip in on them silently as you did to the bull you killed, that was your best bet for that occasion.

It's not hard to tell when a cow or cows are in estrus/heat. You'll know by the other bulls competitive harassment type calling. This is because bulls are competing for the hot cows attention. The herd bull at this time will keep the other bulls away from this hot cow or cows physically & vocally.----- If other bulls are allowed within the cow group this generally shows no hot cows at present no matter the date. The herd bull will not be nearly as defensive or aggressive to anyones calling when the cows are not showing signs of estrus. So timing is important as to when the best times are suitable to give aggressive challenging bugles or advertising type bugles. Both are in an effort to draw the herd bulls cows his way. Because a bull has cows does not mean he is ready to fight!

So, bottom line, when cows are in heat there are generally multiple bulls bugling aggressively for the cows attention. When not in heat it's common to hear the herd bull doing the only real bugling. With a few more years of elk in rut experience you will notice these traits.

ElkNut1

[BrentLaBere]

Huntrgathr - thanks for posting your experience with these bulls and sharing your tactics. Also, Paul, Thank you for the information. Very useful stuff here to take note of for future reference.

[Huntrgathr]

It's not hard to tell when a cow or cows are in estrus/heat. You'll know by the other bulls competitive harassment type calling. This is because bulls are competing for the hot cows attention. The herd bull at this time will keep the other bulls away from this hot cow or cows physically & vocally.----- If other bulls are allowed within the cow group this generally shows no hot cows at present no matter the date. The herd bull will not be nearly as defensive or aggressive to anyones calling when the cows are not showing signs of estrus. So timing is important as to when the best times are suitable to give aggressive challenging bugles or advertising type bugles. Both are in an effort to draw the herd bulls cows his way. Because a bull has cows does not mean he is ready to fight!

So, bottom line, when cows are in heat there are generally multiple bulls bugling aggressively for the cows attention. When not in heat it's common to hear the herd bull doing the only real bugling. With a few more years of elk in rut experience you will notice these traits.

ElkNut1

DING ! Got it now ! I/we didn't realize the importance of this. I think we kind of assumed that if a bull was with cows and no other bulls were being tolerated in his group, that he was ready for a challenge. Now we'll know the best time to use the challenge.

Re : calling in the open : I'm sure you're envisioning us maybe standing in the open , calling to visible bulls on an open hillside. That was never the case. The country we hunted has strips or pockets of timber with openings all through them. It was almost impossible to find a setup where elk couldn't see at least 80 yards... We called in a lot of bulls but in hindsight we should have stalked a lot more bulls. That's my "go to" anyway but I've been trying discipline myself to focus more on calling- trying to bring the party to me. Going into next year I'll have a much better idea when to apply one tactic versus the other. Thanks again for your sage advice !

[ElkNut1]

No problem! No I did not envision you guys standing in the open trying to call at elk. I envisioned the elk in the open & you guys hidden in the timber/sage calling to these elk that you could actually see visibly while calling! That's where most hunters go wrong! They think because they are hidden from the elks view just enough so they the hunters can still see them then they're OK. Bad thinking, you are not OK! When calling to them successfully you must be 100% not able to see any elk at all as the caller otherwise these elk you see will get very suspicious in a short time! Calling elk is a timing thing!

ElkNut1

[pd]

Paul, I have two questions for you (I will post one of the questions separately in the elk forum).

My question concerns a set up that my partner and I tried a few weeks ago. There is a large meadow, several hundred yards long and 50 to 70 yards across. There is a defined trail that crosses the meadow diagonally from one patch of dark timber to the other side. My partner set up downwind, out of sight, maybe 20 yards into the timber, and I (the proposed shooter) sat up close to the upwind side of the meadow, close to the threshold between the meadow and the timber. The caller proceeded to call with aggressive bugles, plenty of raking and stomping. In no time at all, the bull came screaming to the edge of the timber (still on the upwind side). I have only touched a bow for the first time this summer, so this was all exceedingly exciting for me. The bull was maybe 10 yards inside the timberline, and he was high on his own adrenaline. What a thrill. Unfortunately, we just couldn't get him to come out of the timber. More bellowing, raking, stomping, cow calling, whatever, nothing seemed to work.

I have zero experience in these matters, so am not qualified to judge, but I would have to say my partner's calling was superb---it worked to get the bull to come in. My initial diagnosis of the problem lead me to think we needed a decoy of some sort (to set the bull at ease). But after reading Paul's analyses above, I am starting to think that we should have had a caller much further downwind (maybe 50 yards or more), or that the shooter should have been inside the upwind timberline.

So, which is it? Decoy needed? Caller further downwind? Shooter further upwind? Or, something else?

Put another way, is it just impossible to get an angry bull to come out into a meadow without any other elk friends there? (By the way, the breeze was steady and fairly strong and always in our favor---I am 100% sure we were not winded that day.)

[Olydog09]

Paul, I have two questions for you (I will post one of the questions separately in the elk forum).

My question concerns a set up that my partner and I tried a few weeks ago. There is a large meadow, several hundred yards long and 50 to 70 yards across. There is a defined trail that crosses the meadow diagonally from one patch of dark timber to the other side. My partner set up downwind, out of sight, maybe 20 yards into the timber, and I (the proposed shooter) sat up close to the upwind side of the meadow, close to the threshold between the meadow and the timber. The caller proceeded to call with aggressive bugles, plenty of raking and stomping. In no time at all, the bull came screaming to the edge of the timber (still on the upwind side). I have only touched a bow for the first time this summer, so this was all exceedingly exciting for me. The bull was maybe 10 yards inside the timberline, and he was high on his own adrenaline. What a thrill. Unfortunately, we just couldn't get him to come out of the timber. More bellowing, raking, stomping, cow calling, whatever, nothing seemed to work.

I have zero experience in these matters, so am not qualified to judge, but I would have to say my partner's calling was superb---it worked to get the bull to come in. My initial diagnosis of the problem lead me to think we needed a decoy of some sort (to set the bull at ease). But after reading Paul's analyses above, I am starting to think that we should have had a caller much further downwind (maybe 50 yards or more), or that the shooter should have been inside the upwind timberline.

So, which is it? Decoy needed? Caller further downwind? Shooter further upwind? Or, something else?

Put another way, is it just impossible to get an angry bull to come out into a meadow without any other elk friends there? (By the way, the breeze was steady and fairly strong and always in our favor---I am 100% sure we were not winded that day.)

PD,

Here is what I think happened. Your partner is a P.O.S. and cant use a call to save his life. Actually I think what we should have done is had a guy in the timber closer to the bull. That is where I started out calling from then he hung up so that is when I moved back passed you the opposite direction and out the other side of the meadow acting like a cow that was hot but was not sure which bull to go to. If you recall I would cow call walking away from the meadow and then go further back and do some chuckling and raking and lip bawling tryting to tell the cow to get her ass back to me. We ended with acting like the cow decided the real bull was what she wanted and I came back to the meadow trying to get him to think he was going to get lucky. My opinion is that right out of the gate I messed up and should have had you go 20 yards or more into the timber towards the bull right out of the gate. The second thing we should have tried I think was going to him hard into the timber as a cow before it got dark on us instead of trying to bring him in. Live and learn.

[flystrait]

If I depict the picture you painted correctly, you called from across an opening to an elk? More times than not no matter how well you think someones calling is the elk will usually hang up just inside the timber before the opening just as you described. If they can see a distance any distance they want to see you before committing , I always try to get across any opening if possible before I call due to the issue you have explained. I don't care if you are cow calling, bugling or trying to make the bull think he is going to get lucky. This is one of the biggest mistakes most hunters make in my opinion. Along with not always checking their wind. Hope this helps for years to come.