frontal who would take one

[Drawnandpinned]

Take it or not u pick a range u would take this shot even if u normally would not (frontal)

[Fridaythe13th]

30 yds or less. If there was no other option.

[Trophyhill]

I took this young bull last year on a 30 yard hard quartering to frontal. He went 10-20 yards and tipped over. Rolled another 20 yards down the steep slope before his antlers got hung up in a pine tree. Not a shot for everyone but a devastating shot if you are confident and can make this shot.

[twinkieman]

I would shoot out to 30 yds.

[Wyo67]

The bull in the profile pic was a hard quartering to shot at 26 yards. He went about 30 yards and as Trophyhill's, rolled another 20 before getting hung up. Before drawing back I thought about all the times I drilled that 3"x3" yellow sticky target on my broadhead target at home and "I got this..."

That said though, 30 yards is my max for this shot.

[pointysticks]

i heard that the kill zone in a frontal shot is about the size of a soccer ball. that's easy! but i also heard that a bull can rotate fast, which is the real danger..

i'd take the shot on a calm animal that has no idea of the danger (me) nearby. he has to be clueless. the closer the better for sure. 30 yards seems safe.

[Toby]

I would take it 25 or less.

[WapitiTalk1]

Yes, I have and will continue to do so. Under 25 yards for me is an acceptable distance considering the accuracy needed to do the job. I've posted this before but this is a very good article in OL by Aron Snyder about the frontal shot.. it contains critter photos with recommended shot placement.

http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/live-h ... ontal-shot

[Swede]

Yes at close range (under 25 yards) if I have the element of total surprise.

[ishy]

First time hearing soccer ball size, usually hear more like grapefruit size.
Under 20 I'm shootin.

[Indian Summer]

First time hearing soccer ball size, usually hear more like grapefruit size.

That's more accurate.

I might be the minority on this one but you guys know I've had 10 lifetimes of experiences from the time I've spent outfitting. I'll pass every time. One bad outcome is one too many. Are we that desperate?

So... we have a few pics of bulls that were killed from frontal shot huh. Want to hear a few of bulls that were never found?

Here's my take on that: You can Google up "lottery winners" and be sure to find all kinds of stories from people who have won the lottery. But... Try finding a story that says... I played the lottery and didn't win. It happens way more often but who takes the time to post stuff they'd rather forget? Nobody.

How about the feeling you get when you are holding a lottery ticket and you match the first few numbers... and then realize that all it took was one wrong one and you didn't win squat... so you crumble up the ticket and toss it in the trash. Trust me when I tell you it feels way worse when you look at your partner and face reality and say "I guess we're not going to find him" When you are hunting elk, or anything for that matter there's a lot more at stake than a dollar.

"If there were no other option" There is: Wait a minute for a better opportunity!

[under H2O hunter]

Yes I am good with it. I would take that shot any day of the week and twice on sunday given the animal stands there on sunday to get a second arrow.. If you don't think that a frontal shot isn't deadly you have to watch this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrWYuh_s1RQ If you notice that the arrow placement is on the first third of the shooters left side. Not down the middle.. Knowing the animals anatomy is crucial. Most animals will be somewhat quartering to you so you need to know where that softball size spot is. It changes based on the body angle. Other things to remember when taking the shot. Is the animal aware of you or not? Most times an elk will walk in but the head and neck will block this shot. Only when the animal has its head up and looking for the bull/cow that they think is there which plays into having the arrow speed and energy to penetrate deep into the animal. If you are shooting a slow bow you run the risk of the animal jumping the string and the arrow missing its mark. If you don't feel 100% in your equipment or your ability it's best to pass up this shot and wait to see if another shot presents its self.

[Elkduds]

Reasons I won't: Exit wound unlikely, potentially difficult blood trailing, easier to miss one lung, elk will be watching shooter and can react, availability of better angles if I am a little patient. I am more conservative in shot selection than some, because I have no tolerance for losing wounded game.

[ctdad]

I will take this shot. It is a shot that has failed for some hunters sometimes. Perfectly broadside shots have also ended up in lost animals sometimes. I'm comfortable with both under the right conditions.

[Trophyhill]

First time hearing soccer ball size, usually hear more like grapefruit size.

That's more accurate.

I might be the minority on this one but you guys know I've had 10 lifetimes of experiences from the time I've spent outfitting. I'll pass every time. One bad outcome is one too many. Are we that desperate?

So... we have a few pics of bulls that were killed from frontal shot huh. Want to hear a few of bulls that were never found?

Here's my take on that: You can Google up "lottery winners" and be sure to find all kinds of stories from people who have won the lottery. But... Try finding a story that says... I played the lottery and didn't win. It happens way more often but who takes the time to post stuff they'd rather forget? Nobody.

How about the feeling you get when you are holding a lottery ticket and you match the first few numbers... and then realize that all it took was one wrong one and you didn't win squat... so you crumble up the ticket and toss it in the trash. Trust me when I tell you it feels way worse when you look at your partner and face reality and say "I guess we're not going to find him" When you are hunting elk, or anything for that matter there's a lot more at stake than a dollar.

"If there were no other option" There is: Wait a minute for a better opportunity!

I hear what you're saying but guiding as long as you have, I have no doubt you've experienced hunters losing animals on bad hits on a lot better angles and possibly even broadside shots? As with any shot angle, there are no guarantees that a hunter won't hit a twig and deflect into the guts or the animal moves suddenly causing a marginal hit etc and many other issues that create lost animals. no one I know goes out with the intention of the worse case scenario happening but it does. That's part of hunting unfortunately.

[Elkduds]

[
I hear what you're saying but guiding as long as you have, I have no doubt you've experienced hunters losing animals on bad hits on a lot better angles and possibly even broadside shots? As with any shot angle, there are no guarantees that a hunter won't hit a twig and deflect into the guts or the animal moves suddenly causing a marginal hit etc and many other issues that create lost animals. no one I know goes out with the intention of the worse case scenario happening but it does. That's part of hunting unfortunately.

Worst case scenarios are best avoided by passing on shots that are less than ideal. That is part of my hunting, fortunately. You take an iffy shot, you wound and lose game that usually dies in agony over days. it is childish to blame a branch or an animal moving for your bad decision to shoot. Accept the responsibility of killing and do it well, as you would want to be hunted if the tables were turned.

[under H2O hunter]

[
I hear what you're saying but guiding as long as you have, I have no doubt you've experienced hunters losing animals on bad hits on a lot better angles and possibly even broadside shots? As with any shot angle, there are no guarantees that a hunter won't hit a twig and deflect into the guts or the animal moves suddenly causing a marginal hit etc and many other issues that create lost animals. no one I know goes out with the intention of the worse case scenario happening but it does. That's part of hunting unfortunately.

Worst case scenarios are best avoided by passing on shots that are less than ideal. That is part of my hunting, fortunately. You take an iffy shot, you wound and lose game that usually dies in agony over days. it is childish to blame a branch or an animal moving for your bad decision to shoot. Accept the responsibility of killing and do it well, as you would want to be hunted if the tables were turned.

Mark,
Worse case scenarios just happen its not something you can avoid. May I ask you a question? What do you feel is "Ideal"?

[wawhitey]

ill take it.... with my .300 win mag. not my bow

[patdel]

25 yards or less and a perfect site picture with a relaxed animal and I'm letting it fly. I've done a lot of research on this shot and I think its a high percentage shot in the right conditions. I've lost a couple animals over years to what seemed like perfect broadside shots. Most of the serious hunters I know have as well. It happens. If it hasn't happened to you, keep shooting at stuff long enough and it will. There is no worse feeling, but its part of the deal.

I have also been practicing this shot and im confident I can make it. If the confidence isn't there, always pass.

[Elkduds]

H2O: Thanks for your input @ calling class, I've been thinking about your points!
To answer your question on this thread: Don't shoot in worst case scenarios, they are only worst case if you shoot. Otherwise, they are just evolving situations that may improve or blow away when the wind swirls. IMO most hunters use range practice as their standard for deciding what is doable in hunting situations, which yields unrealistic expectation and incomplete awareness of all the variables that can screw up a shot. I know you spend a lot of time hunting, which gives you more experience w real world shots on game.

I see wounded game and talk to hunters who wound game, which is cruel and unnecessary. I have archery-wounded game that I did not recover, but only once. It was such a powerfully bad experience that I heavily revised my own sense of what is an ethical shooting opportunity. To me, an ethical shot is one that will kill game 100% of the time. So I pass on a lot of shots that others would take. I still kill an elk about every 2 years, which is as long as they last in my freezer.

Specifically, broadside or slightly quartering shots @ heart/lungs, whether w archery tackle or rifle. Range? Less than know I can shoot w full confidence. For me, an open shot on standing elk @ 250 yards is about max w rifle, though I'm comfortable on the range @ 300. I'm still figuring out what my max range will be w crossbow, as I can no longer draw hunting-weight bow. I suspect 40-50 yards, I will know w full certainty before I ever shoot it @ game. No shooting through, over or around obstructions, and I am always alert for potential obstructions. No shots that are unlikely to leave exit wound. Only shots that will wreck both lungs. No shots that might wound other animals, including people. After 40 years of seeing the (-) consequences of my own and others' mistakes in judgment, that's now how I roll. Thanks for asking.

[nrocchio]

I won't be taking that shot this year. I trust my shooting ability out to a certain distance, but am not 100% confident in where to place the shot in that situation. I think even a clean kill is a little bitter sweet. I always feel a little bad about it. I hate what happens when there is a bad shot on an animal. I have seen quite a few, and my first deer as a kid wasn't a good shot. It is no fun. I had an experience a few years ago where we filled our tag, but it was not a clean kill. I wasn't even the shooter, and I had such a sick feeling about it I thought I might be done hunting. Obviously I still hunt, but I just don't like wounding the animals. That is not an argument that it shouldn't be taken for the guys that are confident in the shot. I am just not confident enough to do it myself.

[elkmtngear]

Personally, I'm 50 percent on this shot. Both were at extremely close range, and it was either shoot, or watch them bug out.

The one I missed there was no excuse...I was on my knees and leaned out around a small spruce so I could see the vitals. My shot was about 4 inches too far left...little penetration. I am very certain that bull lived to bugle another day (we looked for several hours, found no blood, no trace of him).

I will only take it with no obstacles, less than 20 yards, and under the right circumstances.
'

[BRazz]

I'll just add that what feels like a comfortable distance at the range becomes much more complex with the variables of the hunt. When you're crouched at an awkward angle at full draw for too long, the wind moves branches around, a slobbery bull stares at you from 25 yards - the first elk you've seen in five days, in the back of your mind you're thinking about your streak of unpunched tags and picturing the antlers on your mantle, and your nerves are jackhammering your bow... I understand we can practice these things to try and minimize the impact of these variables but we can't erase them altogether.

I don't judge those of you who are comfortable taking this shot. I'm even reconsidering my resolution to avoid it... But for the integrity of our sport and our quarry, I vow to be honest with myself. I'd just ask you to do the same.

One of the only feelings worst than wounding a majestic elk is knowing that it could have been avoided.

[under H2O hunter]

H2O: Thanks for your input @ calling class, I've been thinking about your points!
To answer your question on this thread: Don't shoot in worst case scenarios, they are only worst case if you shoot. Otherwise, they are just evolving situations that may improve or blow away when the wind swirls. IMO most hunters use range practice as their standard for deciding what is doable in hunting situations, which yields unrealistic expectation and incomplete awareness of all the variables that can screw up a shot. I know you spend a lot of time hunting, which gives you more experience w real world shots on game.

I see wounded game and talk to hunters who wound game, which is cruel and unnecessary. I have archery-wounded game that I did not recover, but only once. It was such a powerfully bad experience that I heavily revised my own sense of what is an ethical shooting opportunity. To me, an ethical shot is one that will kill game 100% of the time. So I pass on a lot of shots that others would take. I still kill an elk about every 2 years, which is as long as they last in my freezer.

Specifically, broadside or slightly quartering shots @ heart/lungs, whether w archery tackle or rifle. Range? Less than know I can shoot w full confidence. For me, an open shot on standing elk @ 250 yards is about max w rifle, though I'm comfortable on the range @ 300. I'm still figuring out what my max range will be w crossbow, as I can no longer draw hunting-weight bow. I suspect 40-50 yards, I will know w full certainty before I ever shoot it @ game. No shooting through, over or around obstructions, and I am always alert for potential obstructions. No shots that are unlikely to leave exit wound. Only shots that will wreck both lungs. No shots that might wound other animals, including people. After 40 years of seeing the (-) consequences of my own and others' mistakes in judgment, tha's now how I roll. Thanks for asking.

Every hunter at some point is going to have a worse case scenario happen to them. I personally shot a 5x5 last season that got pour penetration so we backed out and left the animal overnight. Worse case happened, a major rain storm blew in and washed away my blood trail and hoof prints. We gridded the area but never recovered the bull. I still feel like I could have done something to honor that elk better. Fact is, it's life and sometimes bad things happen to good people and animals and yes I agree with you that we need to do everything we can to give the animals we take as much respect as possible. If you feel that taking a frontal shot is a low probability shot and not something you personally will take. Well I respect that. On the flip side to that in my opinion it's a shot I as well as several others here have said they know we can make and knowing the animals anatomy I personally feel very confident that I can quickly put an elk down with that shot even if it doesn't pass all the way through the animal or hit both lungs. So who is right, who is wrong? Neither I suppose, it's about personal judgment and what we feel we can live with. I personally don't want to lose another animal however realistically that's not likely. I know of a bull that was double lunged and a second shot shot through the neck and was not found. I also witnessed a complete broadside perfect 40 yard shot and the string slapped the side of the shooters arm making the arrow hit really low in a non vital part of the elk and cost several of us a couple days of hunting as we tried fallowing and getting another shot on that elk. Sometimes favorable shots have poor outcomes. My point in all of this is to show that every shot we take has both positive and negative abilities. That's why I mentally ask myself before each shot I make. " Are you confident in this shot?" If I am not 100%sure of myself regardless of the elks body position I won't make the shot. But if I am 100% positive that I can make that shot I will do what it takes to make sure that I recover that animal. If it's not in my cards to recover that animal it's because that animal was meant for someone else and I have to move on and learn from the experience. As well as grow as a hunter.

[Trophyhill]

[
I hear what you're saying but guiding as long as you have, I have no doubt you've experienced hunters losing animals on bad hits on a lot better angles and possibly even broadside shots? As with any shot angle, there are no guarantees that a hunter won't hit a twig and deflect into the guts or the animal moves suddenly causing a marginal hit etc and many other issues that create lost animals. no one I know goes out with the intention of the worse case scenario happening but it does. That's part of hunting unfortunately.

Worst case scenarios are best avoided by passing on shots that are less than ideal. That is part of my hunting, fortunately. You take an iffy shot, you wound and lose game that usually dies in agony over days. it is childish to blame a branch or an animal moving for your bad decision to shoot. Accept the responsibility of killing and do it well, as you would want to be hunted if the tables were turned.

So if an animal is standing broadside and suddenly and unexpectedly takes a step as the arrow is released and the arrow goes into the guts, you're saying the shot shouldn't have been taken because it's a worse case scenario? Often times "worse case scenario" situations happen unexpectedly and are unpredictable. I'm not trying to make excuses for those who may have an unfortunate situation happen every year because they make bad decisions over and over but the reality is, things happen while hunting even on what would seemingly be the most ideal of opportunity until it happens and the hunter is left scratching his head wondering what just happened.

[Elkduds]

Trophy: There are an infinite # of possible scenarios. I tried to quantify my personal limits for average hunting situations in post # 20 above. I did so to illustrate how my ethic of being very unwilling to injure/lose game, impacts my decisions in hunting situations. As you point out, stuff happens. My goal is to shoot only when the range of possible unforeseen consequences will still yield a quickly-fatal shot. So I doubt I would have shot in the example you give, but who can say for certain? I'm shooting @ ranges that will still yield a double lung hit if the elk moves @ the sound of the shot. I'm waiting for calm game, looking away, head down, eyes hidden from me. Etc.

I don't want my main point to get lost, which is: I'm doing all I can to take only quickly-lethal shots. I'm having good success with it. I hope others are doing likewise.

[Trophyhill]

Trophy: There are an infinite # of possible scenarios. I tried to quantify my personal limits for average hunting situations in post # 20 above. I did so to illustrate how my ethic of being very unwilling to injure/lose game, impacts my decisions in hunting situations. As you point out, stuff happens. My goal is to shoot only when the range of possible unforeseen consequences will still yield a quickly-fatal shot. So I doubt I would have shot in the example you give, but who can say for certain? I'm shooting @ ranges that will still yield a double lung hit if the elk moves @ the sound of the shot. I'm waiting for calm game, looking away, head down, eyes hidden from me. Etc.

I don't want my main point to get lost, which is: I'm doing all I can to take only quickly-lethal shots. I'm having good success with it. I hope others are doing likewise.

Great points and I agree we should all do all we can to eliminate or limit the possibility of wounding or killing and losing our prey.

[jmez]

25 yards and in I'll take it.

[mrganser]

I've been kicking myself for not taking a frontal shot on a big 5x5 Rosie a few years ago at 20 yards. So yes, I'll take one inside of 30 when presented again.

[foxvalley]

I have killed elk with the frontal shot, and I believe it to be a very deadly shot to make,under the right circumstances. The most important thing to know is where to shoot,and different angles will give you different points to aim at.Elk have more of a barrel shaped chest,and it's much more likely to penetrate the chest cavity than it is to slide between the ribs and the shoulder,as on a deer.
You are not targeting the lungs so much as your are the heart,and where the heart ,lungs come together,where the largest arterys and veins are. Done right, it's like taking the air out of a balloon,they die very fast.
If I am in thick cover, and a bull comes charging in,under 25 yards,and I have a clear shot at the front,and I know there is no chance of a broadside shot,I will shoot.
If the cover is more open,and he comes straight in,and he doesn't see or smell me,I will wait for him to turn,being at full draw,but if he doesnt turn and keeps comming,and gets REAL close,most of the time he will see you and stop before he crashes away,thats when I would shoot.

[welka]

I am shocked at the distances listed. I am with Indian Summer's post with a slight modification. So many things can go wrong with any shot, but your odds are WAY lower with the frontal because of the size of the zone you have to hit. My twist is that a frontal inside 10 yards is much more like a broadside at 25 from a forgiveness standpoint and hence I would advise to take it only inside 10 yards. Due to a bad wheel, I no longer have the opportunity for this shot from a tree, but would and will take it all day inside 10 and maybe even 15 if in a ground blind. For those of you who haven't wounded one yet, heed his advice as a wounded elk/less than killing shot will stay with you for years. Good luck to all.

[bigmart]

It is no secret that if you hunt long enough you have most likely lost an animal, I lost my first elk on a 15 yd frontal shot
30 yards from where I shot their was blood everywhere I did not recover the elk due to rain and inexperience, this was one
sad day in my hunting life. I don't understand debating this shot, it is deadly and should not be passed up if the opportunity presents itself.
In my opinion if you cannot hit a 3 inch spot every time at 20 yards you need to practice a lot. and at 30 yards 4 inch spot every time.
Become proficient at hitting the spot every time from 20 to 40 yards, know that you can take a 50 or 60 yard shot with confidence if needed.
I know that I am a good shot, but I still miss by an inch or two at times and I know I need more practice. I am not picking on anyone but you need to
know your limits and keep to them, you will kill a lot more game. good luck this year.

[Indian Summer]

things happen while hunting even on what would seemingly be the most ideal of opportunity until it happens and the hunter is left scratching his head wondering what just happened.

Trophy... yes, there is always uncertainty. Even with guns. I have NEVER seen a frontal shot bull recovered and even saw a bull shot head on with a 30-.06 live until because of snow we caught up to it 24 hours later when it jumped up and was finished off.

To define the ideal opportunity... clearly it is the one with the most margin for error. In other words a high percentage opportunity. Frontal... size of a softball. Broadside.. 3 or 4 soccer balls. If I were to shoot at a bull broadside and not recover it I would have no regrets at taking what most consider the optimum shot. If the same thing happened with a frontal how could one not say... I guess I shouldn't have taken what is considered by many to be a debatable shot..... because there's nearly no margin for error. Broadside shots are not debatable but considered by most if not all to be our best chance to kill animals all things considered.

Hence sayings such as: :"Phantom can't hit the broadside of a barn"

[tdirks]

I would but only out to about 10-12 yds. and everything was perfect. Also he had me pegged and was not going to offer a side shot. I shot a 150 whitetail last season with just such a shot. Nine yds. from my stand and angling down. Put it between top of shoulder and spine. Got both lungs and came out just behind the opposite front leg. he went down in 6 seconds and 30 yds. I had lots of time and could pick the exact spot and make the shot. I walked over to him, took a picture of him and sent it to a friend who replied, 'nice buck, but were going to have to talk about the shot location!'

[ElkNut1]

This guy took it under 25yds!

ElkNut1

[ctdad]

When the frontal shot is discussed, it is often assumed that the arrow must go through the thoracic inlet to reach the chest. However, many of these shots are taken at a slight angle and it would see to me that the arrow would enter through the ribs just behind the thoracic inlet. No reason that would be any more difficult to penetrate than ribs behind the front leg. Still doesn't make the kill zone as big as a broadside shot, but the kill zone is likely bigger than a grapefruit.

The picture elknut just posted reminded me of this. That arrow is at a pretty good angle and I'd bet it entered the chest through ribs and not the thoracic inlet.

[elkmtngear]

When the frontal shot is discussed, it is often assumed that the arrow must go through the thoracic inlet to reach the chest. However, many of these shots are taken at a slight angle and it would see to me that the arrow would enter through the ribs just behind the thoracic inlet. No reason that would be any more difficult to penetrate than ribs behind the front leg. Still doesn't make the kill zone as big as a broadside shot, but the kill zone is likely bigger than a grapefruit.

The picture elknut just posted reminded me of this. That arrow is at a pretty good angle and I'd bet it entered the chest through ribs and not the thoracic inlet.

ctdad,
The bull is laid back so the ventral side is almost directly facing you. The "bulge" you see just inferior to the entry wound is the manubrium. So, the entry was in the lower part of the thoracic inlet, and the arrow took out heart and/or great vessels. You can clearly see the anatomy on the closeup.

[ctdad]

Ok, but do you believe that an arrow must enter the thoracic inlet on a frontal to be lethal? I do not.

[foxvalley]

Here is another pic of the frontal shot,he was not facing directly at me,but at a slight angle when I shot. He came at me broadside,but when I stopped him with the nervous grunt,he bounced towards the sound before stopping.I also don't believe you have to hit em in the "throat hole". Between the brisket and front leg,works,and I also believe this erea to be a bit larger than a grapefruit,catalope size. He ran about 60 yds. and was dead in less than 10 seconds.

frontal shot

DSCF0266.JPG (45.51 KiB) Viewed 27286 times

[elkmtngear]

Ok, but do you believe that an arrow must enter the thoracic inlet on a frontal to be lethal? I do not.

No, I've seen bulls killed on a quartering in, sliding just past the point of the "<" through the meat of the front shoulder. It really depends on the angle of the bull...you've got to get around the shoulder bone, and on a steep quartering in shot, you have to hit it just right! Your biggest/ best target opportunity on a steep quartering in shot is the thoracic inlet...pretty much a Texas grapefruit sized target.

The problem with hitting too far back in the shoulder/ribs on this approach, is getting one lung and guts...which could mean a lost bull!

It has a lot to do with angles when it comes to deciding when and where to shoot.

[ChadS]

I would and have. First elk I killed was that frontal quarter too shot at 33yds. Ive shot a bunch of whitetail there too and it is a leathal shot if you know where to aim. Ive lost animals too, but not on that shot.

[a3dhunter]

I was faced with a shot head on last year at 45 yards and it didn't feel right, the bull came in to 35 yards and I still held off. He angled off and I let down.
I feel like I would take that shot at 30 yards or less, preferably 20 yards and in if the elk was standing still.

I've found the problem with admitting that you've lost an elk is that people who weren't there will judge you, no matter what.
I've had people tell me I need to practice more(when they don't know how much I shoot), or be more selective with my shots. I've had people question my ethics, my gear choices, and everything in between.
It all comes down to your choice at the time and whether you feel comfortable with the shot. If not comfortable with it, don't take it.
I would rather go years without taking a shot than to go through losing an animal, but I believe if you hunt elk long enough with a bow you will lose an elk.

As for me, my effective range on elk and certain shots changes each year depending on how my equipment performs and how confident I feel. It is something I evaluate throughout the summer and then set limits for myself come elk season.

I stepped out last week and nailed a cold shot 3" spot at 71 yards, that doesn't mean I would ever take a head on shot at that distance though.

[Screaming_btf]

I would in close 30 yards or less if the animal was not moving!

[buglecrazy]

No Problem. I killed a spike (in Idaho) via frontal shot... no more than 30 yards. At 30 i know i can hit the spot. I rather take a full frontal than a steep quartering to. (close shot)