What's Happening In This Encounter?

[ElkNut1]

You're heading up the mtn well before daylight, you can hear 2 very distant bugles nearly a mile away. You move closer & have covered aprox 700" in elevation to where you're nearly between the two & it's just getting light enough to see well. These 2 bulls are aprox 500yd-600yds from each other, one is above the other, they are on 2 separate benches, as one bugles the other bugles! The terrain is tough & thick to negotiate! What's going on & what's your next move, to this point you have done no calling!

ElkNut1

[Mikeha33]

If I thought I was right between them, on the same elevation, between 2 bugling bulls, I'd find an area that I thought was level with one of the bulls or another, with some decent shooting lanes, and tuck in up against some cover, and wait silently for a few minutes. They're already talking to each other, so let them do the work. If they get silent, then I'd give off a bugle similar to what they've been ripping off, and rake the snot out of a tree. I'd be prepared for the lower one to come up, nose into the wind, looking for trouble.

I'm considering this pre-rut, since that is when I'll be hunting. Well, that's my plan, but the are probably drawing up a whole new playbook right now...

[ElkNut1]

LOL! Remember it's morning, thermals/wind direction is most likely going down? You do not want to risk being winded by lower bull if you try to bring him up to your position. Too, the two bulls are not on same elevation, one is above the other! Need new game plan. (grin)

ElkNut1

[JPD350]

What a great scenario to be in!!
Testosterone in running high and its full rut, they just got done fighting or are getting ready to go at it.

A couple years back I had this same scenario in front of me, I was able to jockey myself next to the herd bull and his herd, as soon as the bull moved towards the challenging bull I threw a challenge bugle and the bull thought WTF!! now I was the challenging bull and the closest bull to the cows, we bugled back and fourth as the bull came circling back to block me from his cows, he gave me a 20 yd shot and the arrow clipped a twig and went right under his chest, I couldn't believe it! He was one of those incredible Gila 5x5's that had super mass all the way to the tips

Edit; I moved in close to the herd from the side and not between the two bulls

[razorback]

I'll work my way under one of the bulls to keep the wind in my favor. I'll get as close as I can. Once I've identified a good setup location, back up just a bit and give a few cow calls. Hurry back up to my set up location and rake trees and give a weak bugle and then just pray.

[Mikeha33]

LOL! Remember it's morning, thermals/wind direction is most likely going down? You do not want to risk being winded by lower bull if you try to bring him up to your position. Too, the two bulls are not on same elevation, one is above the other! Need new game plan. (grin)

ElkNut1

Got ya. That's where I would probably struggle, making the decision in haste to decide which bull to pursue. I understand the thermals falling, so getting on the same level as one is imperative. I guess I'd need to try and get on the same elevation as the higher bull, since he probably won't come directly downhill with the wind??? My thoughts were that the higher bull may stay there, or move slowly, if at all, and let the other bull (the one on the lower elevation) move up to him, making it easier to intercept if I was at the same elevation as the lower bull.
Would the correct play to forget about the lower bull, because of the assumption that he is going to move uphill, towards his challenger, and the chance getting him being downwind/downhill wouldn't likely happen?
OR, I could get below either bull, and call/rake aggressively, and be a 3rd bull into the equation, possibly drawing both into me, as an aggressive challenger???

[ElkNut1]

Good points by all! Take into consideration the scenario I presented, this is a real life encounter, read the situation out & remember these two bulls are on different levels & have been bugling for over an hour that I knew of, possibly much longer! Here's a hint as to what's happening, these bulls are 500yd-600yds apart?? First understand why they are then you can get a good game plan to take the one you choose, do not try to work both bulls, you must choose one & focus on him!

ElkNut1

[twinkieman]

I think the bull on the higher level has cows, the lower one can smell them. He is bugling trying to call the cows to him, then the other bull bugles back. Since I am in between them already, I would cow call, trying to make the uphill bull think he may be losing a cow, and the downhill bull believe he has a chance at this cow.
If I'm wrong, and the lower bull has the cows, the higher bull may believe he can now come in and grab this cow , that has stayed to far from the herd bull.
If we are hunting in a pair, and we do arrow one of the bulls, we would switch caller and shooter, and keep right on going.

[WapitiTalk1]

I betcha the upper bull is a herd bull with cows and the lower is a satellite. Just seems like that's the way it is many times. Lower bull is challenging/harassing the herd bull above him and staying in a position to smell the elk above him. Herd bull is probably screaming back warning bugles, quite possibly with some grunts mixed in. I'm heading left or right and working my way up as quickly as possible to the level of the upper, herd dude, using caution not to get directly above (wind) the lower bull. If I can stealth in and determine which direction the upper bull is moving, I'll set up (probably a few times) and see if I can be a snake in the grass and wait for the upper elk to move my way. If perhaps the elk are not on the move for a while (it is only 0700 or so), and, the opportunity is "now", I'll set up and get vocal. Just using cow calls by themselves close to the herd bull in this situation may or may not reap benefits with the upper bull.. he's probably not willing to leave his posssessions. He may chuckle back or scream a "get your butt over here now" holler which puts you in an almost immediate requirement to move again cuz he's not gonna come to you. Cow sounds may in fact, pull the challenger bull below to your location so you'll have to consider this with your set up. After getting in position, my cow diaphram would only come out if I had decided to use a threat level 3. The upper bull has been challenged by the lower bull already, numerous times. If I knew I felt I could reproduce the tone/notes of the lower bull, I would in fact use the threat and convince the herd bull that I've (I'm the lower bull who's moved in close) hooked one of his chicks. In reality, I would probably set up and be a new challenger, shaking the tree canopy with an earth shattering challenge bugle with chuckles, following my first action of a brief/loud brush bashing session. That should be enough to solicit a physical response from big stinky.. Again, watch for either one of the bulls to come in but I would guess the big guy on your level may be the first to trot over with a can of whoop a$$. That's my meager thoughts on this developing situation

Edit: Hmm, the significant "gap" between the two now has me second guessin my analysis of the situation. Perhaps they are merely just two bulls advertising? Nah, I'm still heading to the upper bull's elevation and lighting him up. That's more fun anyway

[easeup]

I am with you guys on how you have read the situation. I am going to remain quiet for awhile until I get a feel on how the group is moving up or along the bench.
If the low challenger gets my drift and slides out of the party ( I think this if he gets silent) I then make my play for daddy bull by assuming the role of the lower challenger bull by raking just a little too close for his liking.

[BRazz]

My read is that neither bull has cows. Sounds like the bulls are not on the move, which you'd expect from a herd this time of day. If they're bugling back and forth for over an hour, but remaining 500 yards apart, they are probably advertising trying to lure in a cow - maybe one in particular that they heard/smelled/saw?

My plan A is to sneak in quietly while the bulls continue to sound off to each other. Isn't that a setup that we shoot for - one hunter stays back and keeps the bull vocal while the other sneaks in for the shot? I struggle with being aggressive in a scenario like this one where it seems a guy could sneak up on a very vocal bull without making a peep.

My plan B is to make some cow sounds since my read was that they are looking for cows. Could be wrong but there's comes a time when a move is needed.

My plan C is whatever audible needs to be called... Maybe the bulls are on the move. Maybe one is a herd bull and the other a pesky satellite. Maybe one is Paul ElkNut and the other ElkNut Jr...

[elkmtngear]

If it's early enough, the situation is still "dynamic". But what a great scenario to be in!

600 yards is a big gap! I would start by getting on the same bench as the lower bull, but between the two. Then I'm going to dog the lower bull, keeping silent.

If the two bulls close the gap, great! I would probably attempt a loose cow scenario using a decoy, and look for either bull to materialize.

If not, I would probably split off and try to work my way up to the other bench to challenge the upper bull...keeping the wind in my face.

[ElkNut1]

Gotta love these encounters! (grin) You guys are getting closer! Brazz is the closest so far! Still no cigar though on Reading It Right! This is a very common occurrence in the elkwoods & one that happens yearly if you hit the rut right! Another hint!! These bulls have not moved & have been bugling from the same area for over an hour! Why? The better you read this encounter the better the chance at a shot opportunity! I will say there are several ways one can use to have that shot opportunity, I can think of 3 different ones that are high on the list once I know the situation at hand! I used one of the 3 & killed this bull!

ElkNut1

[ctdad]

Both have cows. They are content talking to each other as long as neither gets closer and attempts to steal the others cows. Sneak in on the lower one first and be very aware cows may be watching. Get close and pretend to be satellite stealing a cow. Once I screw up this encounter, repeat with the one further up the hill assuming thermals haven't changed yet

[under H2O hunter]

They have been bugling in the dark and staying in the same location for some time. My history tells me that both bulls are looking for attention/cows but not looking to challenge another bull to take his cows. Thats why they haven't moved. Which tells me that both are worth looking at. You ended up between the two and the terrain is hard to move in so you need to pick the upper bull to go after In my opinion as he is up wind of you and its early. Move slow and quietly and let the two bulls talk with one another so you can pin point the upper bull. Once you are inside 100 yards I would look for a set up that keeps the two of you on level ground but with some type of rise or cover that would cause the bull to have to move in to see you as you start cow calling. Look for the door way that he will move through to see you and get ready to let him have it.

[Heartwood]

The two bugling bulls could be satalites attached to a hurd, possibly above them. There ia a cow there somwhere that is in estrus and they are all fired up. I'd get below or down wind of the lower bull first then staight cow call at first.
We had a situation in 2013 where we had multiple bulls bugling in a tight canyon in morning. We suspected that the two lower bulls were satalites and there was a hurd bull above with cows. In this case i told the shooter to move up as much as he dared each time the lowest bull responded to my cow calls. We did this 3 times until on the last setup the bull committed to coming in and the shooter took him at 28 yards. We heard the bull go down at 70 +- yards and i slipped forward to the shooter to switch spots for a possible 2nd bull. The second bull came in while we were switching ,caught movement and spooked. We weren't fast enough that time but had the right idea. I believe this tactic fits the "call your way to the bull" scenario. This bull didn't seem willing to just come right over to a cow call at the initial distance when we cow called but expected the cow to come to him. We just gave him what he expected. I let the shooter decide weather to move forward each time and when he signaled to setup i offset my position to draw the bull past. This bull actually came in too straight to the shooter but i had enough cover hiding my position that i could throw rocks to draw him across. It felt right to be agressive because we had multiple bulls present and we were starting below them with good down canyon air. We ended up being right treating these bulls as satalites although they were both respectable 6 points.

[twinkieman]

I'll take another shot at this. There is a cow in estrus that both of these bulls have smelled. They are giving advertising bugles, trying to call this cow in, but they do not have an exact location. I would give up on the lower bull, since I am already at a location in between the two, and with downhill thermals, the lower bull will probably wind me anyway. I believe that the bull on the upper bench is a more dominant bull, and that is why the downhill bull is staying put. I am going to work my way inside a 100yds, since he is being vocal. I am going to start with whiny, pleading cow calls. If that doesn't pull the bull in, I am going to ramp up to Threat Level 2, and give cow sounds, followed by medium sized bull sounds, so that this will let the bull know why that cow isn't coming in. Based on the info I have so far,( Paul hasn't told us what bugle sounds these bulls are making), this is what I now believe is happening. I do not believe that there is a "herd bull", since Paul has not mentioned any grunts at all. Am I any closer Elknut?

[ElkNut1]

Awesome replies guys! There are so many great answers that could apply in similar scenarios!

In this encounter ctdad & H20 Hunter, nailed it & Heartwood shared some great info as well! These were both herd bulls! This is why there was great distance involved between the two bugling bulls! These bulls were not challenging one another they were advertising themselves seeking out additional cows that may have been nearby or trying to pull each others cows their way! They were bugling in a competing manner, basically trying to out bugle the other demonstrating strength & dominance as breeder bulls. These bulls did not approach one another at anytime during our presence. They were satisfied with what they had but would also be happy with new recruits! (grin) Generally speaking if one would have been a satellite he would eventually had made his way closer to the herd bull & his group of cows as there was no doubt cows nearing estrus here!

As things unfolded I made my way to the higher bull on the mtn as the lower bull was in a downfall haven & approach was nearly impossible! I got in at the 100yd mark roughly & cow called, no response! I waited 15 seconds & did it again, nothing to my surprise! I waited 1 minute & tried again & bingo the herd bull responded, he was calling me to him with his short bugle & chuckles, I made my way to him cow calling excitedly as I accepted his invitation to join his group, he bugled at me non stop once I made my move right at him. As I was within 40-50 yds I heard him raking, this is good because I knew he was displaying himself to me trying to impress this new cow! I took this bull under 20 yds with a heart shot with a longbow! He died within 100yds, it was a good day!

As Heartwood mentions he was dealing with satellite bulls in his example, generally if there were hot cows around you would also be hearing from the herd bull as well not just the satellite bulls! They wouldn't be able to help themselves as they announced their presence & dominance! Thanks a ton guys, I appreciate all the response!

ElkNut1

[ElkNut1]

Marc, looks like we were typing at the same time bud! (grin) You have very good thoughts there for sure & I like your strategy if the bulls were as you mentioned! As you can see now they were both herd bulls, this is common with them when there is great distance involved! Thanks!

ElkNut1

[Rizzy]

If the blow downs were not so bad, which one would you have gone for? Would the bigger more dominant Bull get the higher bench?

[ElkNut1]

Rizzy, great question! But not necessarily so. Nothing written in stone that the biggest bull frequents the higher position! In this case the bigger bull resided on the lower bench but nearly impossible to get to him from our angle. I did not get a visual on him but could tell by his bugle he was the more mature bull. I ended up with a nice 275" 6 point so was satisfied. With elk there is no assurance that the higher bull is higher up. Key here is "Reading the situation" & then going with your gut! This means that you are going on past experiences. Thanks!

ElkNut1

[BRazz]

The most recent encounter I had with multiple bugling bulls like this was at the beginning of the archery season, when bachelor groups were breaking up. I'm sure there were differences between this scenario and yours, but lots of similarities. For example - they bugled from several hundred yards apart, started before daylight and continued well after, and never really approached each other or acted aggressively.

Without being present it's tough to interpret a scenario (and even if I am there, still tough), but I'm wondering how something like that might play out. How would you guys approach this if neither had cows? Same story? That's my guess since they are clearly advertising and thinking about honeys.

P.S. I love these guess-the-scenario games. Gets my blood pumping.

[twinkieman]

Paul, that's funny we were typing at the same time I love the scenario threads you create, keep them coming, for sure.

[ctdad]

I'm still in the shoot any legal elk phase. I enjoy these scenarios but what I ask myself is how can I shoot any of those elk? I'm not so sure my methods need to be altered much regardless. That herd bull wants more cows. A satellite wants some cows. Neither know I'm here so I'm getting as close as possible then I'm sounding like a cow. First legal elk to come visit is fair game, including cows. If I'm as close as I can get and no one will come, some light chuckles might be in order. What am I missing with my approach?

[ElkNut1]

Thanks guys, I like them too!(grin)

ctdad, stay patient! --- When calling elk your way take into consideration where they're at? Is it early in the morning & they are in their feeding area or on the move leisurely towards bedding grounds. This is one of the easiest times to get close, try to get even with them or in front of them with good cover & wind then setup with your coaxing if there's no way to get to bowrange in "quiet stealth mode" -- Once elk are laying down in their bedding areas & you call to them they are much tougher to get them up & come your way through calling. It can be done & phase of the rut comes into play here! Lots of patience is needed here, after going through a sequence of calling, raking off & on for 10-15 minutes you must stay put for near an hour to allow things to develop! Your calling not need to be loud & obtrusive, plant the curiosity seed & wait! Setup is important here, if you feel the need to move up after you call to a better ambush spot then do so once you've ceased all calling. Sometimes I move & sometimes I don't, all depends on the area! The longer time goes by after you've & ceased all calling the better for you. This puts oncoming elk in search mode & they will come right to you or within bowrange, don't move around!!!

ElkNut1

[tdirks]

Paul, you said he was raking trees at 40 to 50 yds from you and you shot him at 20. How did you close that last 20 to 30 yds? Did he come to a cow call or did you sneak to within 20 yds?

[ElkNut1]

Tim, at 40 yds or so I had good cover between him & I so I stopped all calling then & slipped in silent as he was raking a 10" aspen tree trying to impress this new recruit, (me) -- At 18yds he stopped as I was in the clear to look around for this cow, I was ready to shoot but there was a downed tree branch in the way so I waited for him to clear it & I drew & released for a nice heart shot! Here he is! Thanks!

ElkNut1