Elk frontal shot

[Sean D.]

It works in the vid but would you take this shot?

[jmez]

Yes. Deadly shot.

[Fridaythe13th]

If I was him yes, he looked like he was standing with no cover. I don't think that bull was going to be there long. If it was the only shot I was going to have. yep!

[Elkduds]

I took that shot 1x, w a 7 Rem mag, maybe an 80 yard poke. My pants were around my ankles, but that is another story. No blood trail, cow went 100 yards, breaking sticks all the way, and we heard her crash when she fell. If she had left silently she would have been harder to find, b/c of no blood trail. Heart and a lung were destroyed, but she did not bleed externally. Entry wound closed w almost no blood on hide, no exit wound. Animal bled out inside her chest cavity, finally coughed a patch of blood from her mouth 5 yds from where she fell. So I am not a fan of the frontal shot. It would be easy to miss vitals, only hit one lung, have no exit wound and possibly lose an animal, IMO.

[Indian Summer]

Pass. it's a Hail Mary. When it works it looks easy and effective. Like in football where the guy in who is supposed to catch the ball 80 yards downfield actually does instead of the 4 guys around him. It's dramatic when it works too but there's nothing worse than getting all neck or seeing an arrow stop only an inch and a half in because it came head to head with a shoulder blade.

It can be done obviously but there is very little margin for error. Can everyone here say they would remain calm and steady as a rock when a bull is close enough to take that shot?

[Ghost]

Huge discussion on bowsite about the frontal elk shot. http://forums.bowsite.com/tf/bgforums/thread.cfm?threadid=429406&messages=134&forum=5

[Bullwinkle]

Never again! Been there, done that. I have been a lurker for a while and because of this forum and the elk hunting wisdom here, I now have full confidence that my incident could have been prevented and led to a full freezer. Next time I will be patient and use the nervous grunt to stop the bull when he turns to go. Losing an elk is a hard thing to swallow when you work so hard for the opportunity. Not to mention re-living the agony every day, forever Thanks to everyone here for spreading the elk hunting knowledge! Best of luck this fall. Hope to see you at the meat pole.

[WapitiTalk1]

Betcha it wasn't the same bull they saw in the meadow with his cows that the young hunter shot. I think the herd bull buggered with his cows and this guy was a satellite that came in.. Just saying

Would I have taken that shot.. Yes sir, if I had proper concealment behind me and the shot was 25ish yards, the Alpine would have spoken with the same results Congrats to the young hunter. He's got a lot of ice in his veins at such a young age.

[Elkduds]

Welcome, Bullwinkle! Vere is flying sqvirrel? You are right, the truth about hunting gets told here, even when it isn't pretty. Hopefully sharing lessons learned means we don't have to duplicate each others' mistakes.

[easeup]

aaaagghhhhhhhh...the frontal.....I always listen in on these. It seems to run around 50/50 on various bow hunting forums.
I have never taken one. I have had a number of occasions to take it too but never had the nerve or I was too cautious or maybe too optimistic a broadside shot would happen if I just waited.


has anyone considered that video is doctored?

[jmez]

Frontal shot is lethal in a hurry. I think it is a good shot 25 yards and in. Like any other shot, put it where you need to and you have a dead critter in short order. You need to know anatomy and be sure of your skill level. Screw it up and you have a bad result.

[JJ Overkill]

ive never taken a frontal shot, I haven't been able to make up my mind on this. im sure it will come to me if the shot presents itself. I will let my gut tell me to pass or release.

[Indian Summer]

Just to be clear: any time I give feedback on a subject it is based on my actual experiences. As far as the video goes.... like I said, it's like footage of a 99 yard long bomb that won the game. But to be fair... you won't find a lot of videos on the internet of people showing the shots gone bad. Nobody really wants to relive that enough to post it on the net right? Some people never tell a soul.

I agree that the frontal shot debate runs around 50/50. But I have only been there to witness 3 elk being shot in the front and so far it's 0 for 3. Actually one was recovered but didn't die from the original shot. It was shot with a .30-06 and the bullet slipped between the shoulder and the ribs. It didn't die but we caught up to it mid day the next day and finished it off when it jumped up. If it wasn't for snow we would never have found it. The other 2 were bow shots. One disappeared up to the fletches and we thought it was dead in it's tracks. The other looked like it stuck in a big oak as it stopped dead on impact. Neither were ever seen again and little to no blood.

Those are just my experiences. I didn't personally take those shots but I saw what happened and that was enough for me. Like Bullwinkle says "Losing an elk is a hard thing to swallow when you work so hard for the opportunity. Not to mention re-living the agony every day, forever" If you're not sure about how bad it sucks try it some time.

I'll leave you with one thought that I hope sticks out in your mind: At the point where an elk is at or under 20 yards there is a really good chance you are about to have a really good shot. Why trade that for a risk? Hail Mary passes are for football where there's no time left and nothing to lose. In elk hunting there is something to lose.

If you really want to take that shot that is your call but please at least limit it to inside 20 yards where the chances of things going wrong are a lot less.

[JJ Overkill]

indian summer, I agree with you 99.9% on this to a point. one thing id really like to stress to people is, this isn't an easy shot by any means. the video makes it seem like a shot anyone can take. heck if a kid could take this shot I KNOW I CAN isn't the mindset to have on this shot. do a good self-analysis on your shooting and nerves at the moment of truth. I give credit the kid for making a good shot and keeping calm while in the heat of the moment.

this shoot IS NOT for everyone. especially the guys new to archery. no offence guys but this is my honest opinion.

[Indian Summer]

How do we know he kept calm? How do we know he even had a clue that the shot was all or nothing? All we really know is that he shot and it hit in a favorable spot. For all we know he was shaking like a leaf & aiming at the head. One thing we do know... he's lucky.

I know a guy who killed a 5 point bull with a .22 short! A video of it might convince some that it is the weapon of choice but of course these days everyone is careful enough to say "when done properly".

I just want to remind everyone that I don't judge others. Everyone makes their own call and everyone has different skills. People can change their minds too. Someone might think it's a good shot opportunity only to have a bad experience and swear never again. We learn from our mistakes. But we can learn from the mistakes from others too right. If we have no experience to go on we can listen to the experiences of others which includes watching videos like that. You wont find many like it. We can also listen to guys like Bullwinkle who doesn't post much but couldn't resist passing on what he knows about a serious subject. You can find alot like that. So weigh them all out in your mind and make the call for yourself but remember you have to live with the results of your decision. Elk are tough critters & one lost elk is one too many.

[Toby]

Let's say you are in the same situation as this young Hunter, a bull comes right at you. But, you have already decided against the frontal shot. You have a nice bull at 20/25 yards facing you, something is going to happen.

What do you do to get a better shot?

[Indian Summer]

At that point I'm drawing. Actually before that. Just like deer hunting drawing your bow can be the hardest part and the point where you can get busted. In most situations you would have seen that bull coming and by the time he was at 20 yards you'd probably be best to have already drawn your bow. So now the worst thing that can go wrong is he stops and stands facing you longer than you can hold your draw. But trust me that's better than having him come in like that and then trying to draw as he finally turns giving you the shot you want.

With modern bows it's pretty easy to hold at full draw fairly long. That may be something you consider when you decide that 63 pound is enough draw but you want to max your bow out to 73. For those with 80% letoff you can surely hold long enough & no question I'd be drawn and just waiting for the bull to turn or pass me broadside. Lock onto your target and wait for the split second window of opportunity you need.

OK Paul you can chime in now and tell us how you'd take the frontal all day long. But again... I bet you're a lot calmer than most in the heat of the moment so it's not like comparing apples to apples. Plus you're just a lucky guy.

[Ridgernr]

I will take that shot under 20 yards, This last season we had a 5 pt come in 30 yards a stop at 30 yards headon,( Ranged before) I was set up as shooter my caller ended up 10 yards to my right. When the bull turned to our left I drew and he snapped his head back and looked our way. I held for several waiting for him to turn when all the sudden a shot went off , evendently my caller had drawn to. When he shot the bull took off up hill so we both started calling we heard him just above us he went down within 20 yards. As we waited I asked where did you shot he said just behind the left shoulder I saw the arrow hit , When we got to the bull the arrow was buried in the front of the chest, I believe the bull turn at the shot and hit different then where he aimed, Lucky I guess but not the chance I want to take thats why I was wiating for the bull to turn, He was already alert and I didn't want to take a headon shot at an alert animal..

[Toby]

I am guessing that as I stand at full draw with the bull facing me that he will eventually get nervous and turn to leave.hopefully a nervous grunt will stop him broadside for a shot

[Sean D.]

aaaagghhhhhhhh...the frontal.....I always listen in on these. It seems to run around 50/50 on various bow hunting forums.
I have never taken one. I have had a number of occasions to take it too but never had the nerve or I was too cautious or maybe too optimistic a broadside shot would happen if I just waited.


has anyone considered that video is doctored?

I was wondering if this has been doctored as well, theres no doubt where it was shot but there sure is alot of editing!


Heres my take on this. In the video the elk has no idea hes there and it almost looks like if he keeps going he will be going to the right of the hunter offering a broadside shot. When he stopped at the log he looks like hes either going to continue on the path or take a step to his left, again offering a broadside shot. What we dont know is how long the kid was at full draw, so did he take the shot because he couldnt hold it any longer or did he think its now or never? Its obvious that the jugular was hit and he was dead very quickly but what if the arrow was an inch to the right and missed the jugular only getting 1 lung! Do you think he would have tagged this elk then?

I too have had a couple opportunities at a frontal shot, all with a bow, and have never taken one. I know I can shoot but IMO that is a shot that is just to risky. The largest elk I ever had in bow range was a giant 360+ 7x6 at 18 yds, I was at full draw and the only shot I had was at his chest. We had a stare down for about 30 sec and its amazing the thoughts that went through my head in that short amount of time. I had lost an elk before and the thought of losing another, especially a giant like this was not worth it to me. I so bad wanted to hit the release but to this day im glad I didnt! Could I have killed the biggest elk of my life? Maybe! But I may have wounded and lost the biggest elk of my life also.

[Indian Summer]

Here is the document from the IBEP or International Bowhunter Education Program. Found this when on another thread but thought it was appropriate here. http://www.dundeesportsmansclub.com/dun ... cement.pdf

[Trophyhill]

aaaagghhhhhhhh...the frontal.....I always listen in on these. It seems to run around 50/50 on various bow hunting forums.
I have never taken one. I have had a number of occasions to take it too but never had the nerve or I was too cautious or maybe too optimistic a broadside shot would happen if I just waited.


has anyone considered that video is doctored?

Out of curiosity, how many frontal situations actually turn into a broadside opportunity. My thinking is a guy has 2 choices. Pass on the opportunity or make the shot. Head on likely you are seen and have a quick decision to make. If you pass in most instances he's not going to stick around and give you an easy shot. Your thoughts?

[Sean D.]

Just to be clear I was talking about a frontal shot with a bow when I brought this up! I think differently with a gun.

[LckyTylr]

I'm still on the fence about this shot. I have all the confidence in the world regarding my shooting ability. There are a number of factors that I have to consider (personally).

I have never shot an elk before, but I've watched someone make a "good" broadside shot on a bull that we never recovered . . . so I know how tough they are.

I have killed more than a dozen deer with a bow. I know how important shot placement is. I have NEVER taken a frontal shot on an animal.

I've been a student of elk anatomy for the last several years.

So, with all of that said. I'm still not convinced that it's a good shot for me . . . or a good shot for anyone . . . to consider. I know how big the "window" is into the vitals. I know how well I can shoot. I also have seen how quickly animals can react to the sound of a bow/arrow. It's amazing to me. If I really were to boil it down to the possibilities of what can happen during that shot, then no, it's Not a good shot. An elk can easily move 3"-4" in the time it takes for an arrow to reach its intended target. Knowing how large the target is, and knowing how quickly an animal "can" duck the string . . . it's a bad shot to take.

Playing the odds however . . . is a different story. Will every elk react to the string, is my bow quiet enough, is the animal in a position that would allow them to react as quickly as they are capable of . . . a lot of variables. I can see how easily someone could talk themselves into taking this shot. I truly believe that I could stand face to face with an elk and, if I'm not feeling confident, pass on this shot. I had a huge bull broadside at 15 yards last season with some branches between his vitals and myself for more than a minute. I could have "snaked" an arrow through, but elected to wait for a better shot with zero chance of deflection. I never got the chance to release on that bull, so I know I can stick to my personal code of ethics when the opportunity presents itself.

I guess, I can't say one way or the other at this point, I think each and every situation deserves its own analysis by the shooter. I don't think there's a right answer.

[Wyo67]

The way I look at it is: I know my range, my equipment, my capabilities, and elk anatomy. With all of the practice I put in with my bow during the year, if it's within 20 yards, I don't consider it a Hail Mary, but a slam dunk. If it's further than that, I'll wait for a closer shot or try to stop it if it turns and starts to run. it's up to you to prepare yourself for when that moment arrives. If you can keep your composure at close range with a bull in your face, and feel confident you can hit that sweet spot, that's your call. If you can't, then don't force a shot that has little room for error. That goes whether it's a 15yd frontal, or a 30yd broadside shot.

So far as this video itself, I think I would have waited for a better angle. It appears to me as though the shooter takes the shot as soon as the bull stops moving. It didn't seem to me as though the bull was nervous or edgy and probably would have continued on his path to the shooters right, eventually giving him a broadside shot.

One thing that bothers me about this video is the position cameraman. Seems to be either in front of or side by side (to the right) of the shooter. Did the location of the cameraman influence the shooter to take that shot when he did? You never see the shooter when the camera is panned out and the shot comes from off screen to the left. Am I wrong or does it seem as If the bull continued to the shooters right, the cameraman would have been between a 13 year old with a drawn bow and the elk?